Man tasered 19 times, dies.

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The Taser is commonly placed before the baton in the use of force continum. In our PD, we go to Taser before Hands-On. Less risk for both the officer and the subject to be harmed. Personally, Ive been OC'd and Tasered, and Ill take the Taser every time.

Let me aks you, would you rather be Tasered or beat about the thighs and arms with a 26" piece of steel tube? I think I know my answer.
 
Let me aks you, would you rather be Tasered or beat about the thighs and arms with a 26" piece of steel tube?

I really enjoy these "rhetorical" questions, posed by officers...

Reminds me of the quote from "Training Day": "Ya wanna go to jail or ya wanna go home?"

Role model?
 
I dont know if I fit the mold of other officers my age or not. Im only 25, and have close to two years on now.

I do not want to hurt anyone. I dont like to fight. As a amatter of fact, I would rather spend 20 minutes talking someone into a set of cuffs that 2 minutes fighting them into them. I enjoy talking to people, I like to take "cat in the tree" calls, and dont mind doing reports. I work in a town of around 5000, and love it. For me, if its a quiet night, that means Im doing my job, not that Im not working hard enough. I dont enjoy writing tickets, my warning to ticket ratio hovers around 10 to 1.

On the other hand, I have no issues laying my hands on someone if all other options have been exhausted. I love hooking DUIs and Domestic Abusers. Nothing gets me off more than a good, duly warranted felony stop.

Maybe Im strange, but I prefer the "Serve and Protect" Image much, much more than the newer, more prevalent "Law Enforcement" mantra. I think a lot of it is due to the fact that I grew up in the town I work in, and have a lot invested here. I want it to be safe, and friendly, but not due to the people fearing me, but hopefully they feel comfortable calling me to do things they need. If it ever comes to the point where the law is complied with because people are afraid of me, then Im done.

Ill go be a firefighter.:scrutiny:
 
I have seen a lot of people degrading the Tazer in this thread. What I want to know is without the tazer what do you think the odds are that he would have left that area in anything other than a body bag. You've gone hands on. You've OC'd him. You've gone to your ASP. Now what? The Tazer is "horrible and kills people" so you don't have that option...I can either shoot him center mass or hit him with my cruiser. I have no other alternatives. I work in LE and have seen MANY instances where a Tazer kept the subject from being seriously injured in an arrest. The Tazer is the only tool regularly carried that I know of that actually reduces the likelyhood of injury to both parties.

Also, if he had not been high and out of his mind he would never been in the situation to begin with. If you decide to go out, loose control and fight anyone then you need to know that despite the best efforts of those arond you, you can be killed. OC can suffocate. ASP's can shatter bones and permenantly cripple. Bullets...welll we all know how that turns out.

LEO's use the tools that they have and until something better comes along, that's all there is. If you don't want them used on you then don't go around acting like a jackass.
 
the only thing i can say is that im glad that there is some good cops out there like you patrol 120,because we surely need them.you are the kind of person i wouldnt mind being around because your not power mad.you beleive in right and wrong and im very glad that your out there.you are a very rare cop indeed from what i seen sofar,keep up the good work. ;)
 
Powderman said:
Nope. Tasers and OC have one purpose--that is to make sure you get home alive and hopefully unhurt at the end of your shift. If you go into LE, you will learn this.
Powderman, I haven't read enough of your posts to have decided whether you are the type of LEO I can respect, or the type of LEO who should not be an LEO. However, your statement above strongly suggests the latter, because it is 100% bass-ackwards. You can deploy your service firearm and be sure that you get home alive and unhurt at the end of the shift. That is NOT the purpose of less than lethal weapons. Their purpose is to enable the LEO to subdue recalcitrant suspects/perps without having to kill them. Their purpose is NOT to ensure that you make it home alive, it is to ensure that the suspect makes it to the lockup alive.
 
BigReno

So what your saying is that all those people that have been tased. 9 year old little girls, little old ladies, drunks at bars, people being a bit loud, drunk brides etc, the only way the cops could have handled it was to shoot them? Get real.

Past twenty years I have noticed a lot more in the way of police men riding around by themselves. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that with the tasers, they can take down a person by themselves.

And if five to ten cops cant take down an unarmed person, They need to dismiss quite a few of them and get some younger,more in shape bodies .

Why are there more and more people disparaging tasers? Because dipsticks that shouldnt be in law enforcement in the first place are using them more and more for the most minute reasons.

And if you have any issues with someone not in law enforcement judging the work of law enforcement. Well, I'm an electrician, the primary people who judge my work are my customers, not other electricians. :)
 
And if five to ten cops cant take down an unarmed person, They need to dismiss quite a few of them and get some younger,more in shape bodies .

Ever gone hands on with a guy with a few hits of meth in his system? No? How about PCP?

Perhaps you've had the joy of going into a DV call and getting PC to arrest the husband--who happens to resemble Arnold in his younger days. :eek:

Here's a small example:

Every now and then, we get to go through a trainer that has a sort of "theater" inside. This theater shows different scenarios, and you interact just the way you would on duty.

You have a gun set up to shoot IR beams, with compressed air to make it kick. You have a simulated can of OC--and you have a Taser.

The trainer also shoots BACK at you--with little rubber balls that hurt. I know this from experience. :uhoh:

One scenario involved an EDP in a restaurant who heard--and listened to--the voices in his head. He was supposed to be causing a ruckus, and I was supposed to do something about it. I "made contact" by talking to the screen from about 20 "feet" away.

The EDP responded by getting up and grabbing a knife.

I responded by using the Taser.

The instructor asked, after the scenario, "Why did you tase him? That was a deadly force scenario."

I replied with, "I was behind a table, so there was some space. I was trying to do my best NOT to kill the guy. No reason to, at that time--I still had an option."

Sure, there are some cases and some folks with knives that I will not hesitate to put at gunpoint immediately. You have to, however, take into account the WHOLE picture.

Is there a way to subdue this person without having to kill or maim them?

The Taser gives me that option.

Hawkmoon, if you're interested in finding out what kind of LEO I am, there are two ways to do it. One is to read some of my other responses, and to draw your own inferences.

The second way is to talk to me directly. If you're in or about Tacoma, WA, let me know. PM me for a coffee break. :)
 
Umm, don't want to nitpick, but wouldn't a tazer be more effective than a pistol on a knife-wielding meth-head? Or your buddy on pcp?

Anyway, people aren't disputing the effectiveness of the tazer. We should get that out of the way.

People are questioning the safety.

And people are questioning the attitutes of those who mock them for questioning the safety.


And situations like the restaurant you said, there;s other people involved so it's complicated. And I'm no genius, but I kind of suspect a lot of 'situations' could be solved by giving the suspect a piece of paper. 'Here's your citation.' Things like the hefty woman we saw who argued that she shouldn't get the speeding ticket, and then was ordered out of the car. And she argued she shouldn't have to get out. And she was zapped, and she didn't like it. Why not just give her the ticket and leave it at that. And if she rips it up she gets a ticket for littering.

Why get physical soooo often in sooo many mundane situations? It's putting yourself and others at un-necessary risk, then demanding new tools and powers because you feel unsafe.

For the sake of officer safety, give more people pieces of paper! Once you go through all this hassle you get them to jail and then let them loose a few hours later anyway - WITH A PIECE OF PAPER!

It's for officer safety, ok, so you have to do it. I said officer safety, magic word, now you have to do it.
 
Joejojoba111 said:
Umm, don't want to nitpick, but wouldn't a tazer be more effective than a pistol on a knife-wielding meth-head? Or your buddy on pcp?

Anyway, people aren't disputing the effectiveness of the tazer. We should get that out of the way.

People are questioning the safety.

And people are questioning the attitutes of those who mock them for questioning the safety.


And situations like the restaurant you said, there;s other people involved so it's complicated. And I'm no genius, but I kind of suspect a lot of 'situations' could be solved by giving the suspect a piece of paper. 'Here's your citation.' Things like the hefty woman we saw who argued that she shouldn't get the speeding ticket, and then was ordered out of the car. And she argued she shouldn't have to get out. And she was zapped, and she didn't like it. Why not just give her the ticket and leave it at that. And if she rips it up she gets a ticket for littering.

Why get physical soooo often in sooo many mundane situations? It's putting yourself and others at un-necessary risk, then demanding new tools and powers because you feel unsafe.

For the sake of officer safety, give more people pieces of paper! Once you go through all this hassle you get them to jail and then let them loose a few hours later anyway - WITH A PIECE OF PAPER!

It's for officer safety, ok, so you have to do it. I said officer safety, magic word, now you have to do it.

Your first sentence is EXACTLY the point.

Gunfire will put a person down, no contest. But they can still function. Also, gunfire is the final solution. There's no such thing as a "minor" wound.

The Taser is the ONLY thing that I have seen that will take down the meth head, the PCP user, the EDP--RIGHT NOW. And, once they hit the dirt, the cuffs are applied, and they go where they need to--UNHURT.

As for the "fat lady" you mention, there are two things I'd like to point out.

If it is the same scenario I'm thinking about (Florida), if she was just sitting in the car chirping, oh well. We will talk about it until you're blue in the face, but I'll eventually--hopefully--get them out of the car.

But, the woman actually hit the officer. Guess what? At that instant, she stepped it up from a simple NOI to a Felony (in WA State, Assault 3rd). Now, you WILL go to jail.

The woman would not get out of the car. In that situation, I am NOT going into the car after her. Painful things happen to officers who do that, like getting dragged by vehicles.

Out comes the Taser, and after one more chance, it's time to do the kickin' chicken.

Final note--observe that after the Taser deployment, she WALKED TO THE PATROL CAR UNDER HER OWN POWER. Try doing that after some stick time, or a good application of OC.
 
I really do not have a dog in this fight. The extent of my knowledge about law enforcement comes from a couple of family members who are in the profession and my interaction with law enforcement personnel in training.

Having followed this discussion, and others, it seems as though some are condemning a tool because a few people have used it irresponsibly.

Strikes me as being hypocritical.
 
Having followed this discussion, and others, it seems as though some are condemning a tool because a few people have used it irresponsibly.
I don't recall seeing any comments condemning the taser. Perhaps a few condemning abuse of the taser.

I don't think it's condemnation to question the safety, however. The company keeps claiming nobody has ever died from being tasered, yet at least monthly, if not weekly, we see reports of people like this, who died after having been tased. Yeah, maybe they were high on extra-legal substances, but if it was the combination of drugs and taser that caused the death, then say so dammit.

Saying it wasn't the taser it was the drugs can be a valid statement ONLY if it is 100% certain that the person would have died from the drugs even if not subjected to the taser. That has not been proven (and, of course, cannot be proven), thus it is an invalid conclusion to state that the taser played no role in the death. Using the same logic, it would be equally valid to rule that the drugs played no part and the death was a direct result of the taser.
 
The Taser is the ONLY thing that I have seen that will take down the meth head, the PCP user, the EDP--RIGHT NOW. And, once they hit the dirt, the cuffs are applied, and they go where they need to--UNHURT.

Does it take 19 times for a guy to hit the dirt? VERY Doubtful.
 
People are questioning the safety.

And people are questioning the attitutes of those who mock them for questioning the safety.
Joe ~

In the real world, there are a limited number of things an officer can do with a non-compliant subject who has committed an arrestable offense:

1) They can ignore the lawbreaking and let the person go. Bad idea if you like civilization, and a bad idea for the cop who wants to keep his job.

2) They can talk until they're as blue in the face as they are in the uniform. And they often do -- but talking doesn't always work. If the arrestee remains non-compliant (a fancy word for "wants to fight"), the officer is going to have to choose one of the options below.

3) They can go hands-on. That sounds so tidy, doesn't it? In real life, that means twisting the arrestee's arm or wrist to the point where it will break if the arrestee doesn't comply. Or yanking the guy off-balance, shoving him face-first to the sidewalk, and placing a firm knee in between his shoulder blades so that he cannot even lift his head -- while holding his arm in such a fashion that his shoulder is likely to be dislocated if he keeps fighting. He's at risk for suffocating in that position too, btw, which is one reason why some arrestees die while being arrested. That's if everything goes well. Oh, and don't think getting driven face-first into the pavement doesn't result in injuries or even sometimes in death. You could look it up.

4) They can use the baton. Essentially the same thing as bare hands above, only add in that the arrestee is getting beaten, twisted, or choked with a big stick. Dangers to the arrestee include broken bones, crippling injuries, or death. Oh, both 3) and 4) also include the risk of death from heart attacks and/or stroke as the overwrought arrestee fights back.

5) They can use OC (pepper spray) or some other form of chemical persuasion. A certain percentage of the population is all but immune to these, so OC may not be efficacious -- especially since a lot of criminals have often learned to fight through OC exposure (if the police can learn to do it in Academy, the thugs can learn to do it in the hood). Is OC dangerous? Not according to its promoters -- but a certain percentage of the population is deathly allergic to its primary component and could die from anaphylactic shock. The OC itself is billed as "non-injurious," but its use can nevertheless result in injury or death. For instance, the blinded but not yet restrained subject could wander out into traffic and get killed. And it is very, very unpleasant for the arrestee, especially given that it will be at least two hours before he will be able to decontaminate. If he's even remotely claustrophobic, that's going to be a very terrifying two hours.

6) Or they can use a taser. Is taser use "safe"? Particularly, is it "safe" for the arrestee? Compared to all other methods the officer may use to gain compliance from an arrestee who is determined to fight, yes it is. Any force at all is more dangerous than simply talking, but once you're past the talking stage, the taser is just about the safest tool in the box. The reason folks keep "mocking" those who ask the question is because no one is listening to the answers! The answer is simply, "Yes. Taser use is safer than allowing a disturbed and possibly violent person to go free. It is safer than slamming that person into the pavement by nearly breaking his arm. It is safer than beating on him with a stick. And (statistically and experimentally) it is both safer and more pleasant for the subject than using OC."

pax
not an officer, just hates shoddy thinking.
 
I personaly have no problem what so ever with a taser. It is relativly safe and if anything is likly to hurt you durring your fall then anything else.

What I am agianst is some police officer's who figure it is less then lethal and will you it without a second thought in situation's it does not need to be used for. Someone who is a bit uncopertive doesn't not need to be tazed. A 6'5 350 pound wannabe gangsta on PCP is the guy that need's to be tased, not the guy at chuck e cheese with his kid's that tell's the cop his story and when they persist tell them to shove off and stop busting his chop's.

I am all for less then lethal method's. And many officer's use them correctly. But many other's use them without the slightist hesitation for the smallist reason where it doesn't need to be done. They are there to subdue people that otherwise would have had to been shot. If it isn't a situatio nwhere you normally would have likly had to shoot them, or more accuratly in some situations the step ust before that, it is not time to use the taser. For instence, the same guy on PCP that if he charged you would have had to shoot taser before he charge's after it's clear he isn't going to coperate and the situation will only escalate. For instence, the guy that just isn't coperating completly and is running his mouth a bit is not the guy you should be tasing.
 
This says "only" that he died after the tasing, not that he died because of it.

Thankyou for pointing this out. It would be just as truthfull to say that he died after eating a sandwich, or that he died after childbirth (his), or that he died after taking LSD. One needs to establish a causal relationship between two events before one can be blamed for the other.
 
Powder

"As for the "fat lady" you mention, there are two things I'd like to point out."

Different case, then. The situation I was referring to had the lady pulled over by a hot yellow sports car, which was a police car, and she argued that they couldn't accurately tell her speed while both cars were moving. The police disagreed. In response to her (impolite) argument she was ordered out of the car, and she argued this as well. A weapon was drawn and pointed at her, and she was told she would be stunned if she didn't get out. She argued, but didn't finish the sentence. Zapped, dragged out of the car, zapped again, and maybe one more time. For speeding.

Actually not for speeding, for arguing. Elecriticty > words.
Sword > pen.


Pax

"1) They can ignore the lawbreaking and let the person go. Bad idea if you like civilization, and a bad idea for the cop who wants to keep his job."

They can go through all your recommended rigamorole, and transport the person to the jail for processing, and then to court, and then they will likely be 'let go' anyway. As such, I don't see any grounds in your argument.


"If the arrestee remains non-compliant (a fancy word for "wants to fight"), the officer is going to have to choose one of the options below."

I do not agree. I sort of feel that non-compliant means what it says. And 'wants to fight' means what it says. And I think the reason we have the different words is because they mean different things. I'm not closed-minded, if you can show me scholastic examples of how they really are synonyms I can learn and expand my knowledge, but until then I have to believe that blue is blue, and red is red. And if you tell me red is blue, I'm not going to believe you. I'm going to think you are, well, lieing. Sort of makes you a liar. But I'm open to new ideas, just need some evidence that you can show which proves a dictionary wrong.

Like those hippies who staged sit-ins. They are asking for a beating and tazering and OC and metal batons and broken bones, because they weren't compliant. That means they want to fight. If they want to fight they are obviously violent criminals.

As you can see, hippies staging sit-ins are not peaceful, as I previously though, they are in fact violent police-attacking criminals, they 'want to fight'.

Sorry if that seems like a long way to express myself, but calling everyone who is not a docile sheep 'wants to fight' = 'violent criminal', that's another sign-post on a road I keep hoping we'll stop heading down.
 
re: cause of death

Brerrabbit,

I only know what I read. I didn't make it up. The Shotgun News, Oct 3, 2005. Page 46. The title of the rather long article with lots of color photos is "Taser." The author is Massad Ayoob.

The bottom line is this: I am unaware of a single autopsy in which a credentialed pathologist who actually examined the body has ruled cause of death to be a Taser. Several of the post-mortem examinations have listed cocaine poisoning as the cause of death.

And then at the end of that sub-section:

I am aware of a very few autopsies - perhaps eight - in which the official finding was that the Taser "could not be ruled out" as a "potential contributing cause of death," or words to that effect. Well, in theory, anything from cigareete smoking to bad attitude is "potentially" a "contributing" cause when someone dies like this. Blaming it on the Taser is simply too much of a stretch.

I know this will only lead to people saying we can't believe anything Mas says but still I wanted to let people know I didn't make it up!
 
He's flat wrong. We have hundreds of very expensive very professional papers CLEARLY explaining that cigarette smoking is NOT detrimental to one's health. END OF STORY. Pffft. Pfffft. Zip it. Zip. Story over. Story ended. There are studies, they are right, he is wrong, period. Smoking is healthy, and gives you a better voice.
 
Pax said:the thugs can learn to do it in the hood

So is that your mentaility. I lost about this much respect for you from that line.



Maybe im reading too much into it......................................it is late.................
 
*genuine puzzlement*

What is my mentality? I missed something.

pax
 
Pietro ~

I still don't see what you're driving at. Please explain.

pax
 
"thugs in the hood"

Is sounding very stereotypical.

This sounds like all "thugs" are criminals and all criminals live in the "hood"
 
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