manually de-cocking

[Majic]

Condition 1 is fine when you have full control of the pistol. You know exactly where it's at and how it's oriented. You aquire the grip, bring it up on target, flip off the safety as you aquire the trigger and fire.
When the pistol is not in your control then it is easy for the safety to flip off and when you aquire the grip depressing the grip saftey the gun is ready to fire even though you aren't. I keep mine at condition 2 and have to cock the pistol after I have aquired the grip for my own personal satisfaction. I see that this is not for everyone, but then it works perfectly fine for me and that's all that matters.

 

[jem375]

M1911........when I carry my 1911 in the woods, it is in condition 2.....I don't need it cocked and locked in that situation......I am used to letting the hammer down on a live round, since I shoot single action and double action revolvers a lot also, and if you cock the hammer back on those, you either have to shoot the round off or let the hammer down period.
I guess if people don't have the knowledge or strength to let a hammer down, they should stick to Glocks or other hammerless pistols......I have hunted with pistols, rifles, and shotguns that had hammers, and am used to letting the hammer down.........

 

[Ala Dan]

FWIW, all SIG-SAUER manuals state to NOT use the
thumb to decock the firearm; instead ALWAYS use
the decocking lever!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[jem375]

sure if they have a decocking lever, but I am still pretty squeamish about dropping a hammer on a live round that way.......

 

[Majic]

Looking at it from a legal aspect I would imagine all manufactors who has a decocker on their pistol would advise on using it. It could be labeled as a safety item and if someone gets hurt or damages something by not using it they have opened the door for a lawsuit if they didn't recommend using it.

The Sig manual also states before that to never completely trust any safety mechanism. Any safety mechanism can breakdown or malfunction. They are no more than just covering their bases like any business that wants to survive in litigation has to do.

 

[M1911]

when I carry my 1911 in the woods, it is in condition 2.....I don't need it cocked and locked in that situation

jem375:

Again, I ask why? I assume that you carry condition 1 sometimes, but in the woods condition 2. If you train and usually carry condition 1, do you really think that you'll react properly when in the woods and carrying condition 2 instead? Don't you agree that it is likely that you would draw, try to lower the safety and pull the trigger instead?

If you are smart enough to know, under extreme stress, that sometimes the chamber is loaded and sometimes it is not (and therefore you have operate the slide), then you are a much smarter bear than me. I prefer to keep it simple -- train as you fight and fight as you train.

Why not carry condition 1 in the woods? It is at least as safe as condition 2 (and arguably safer, since decocking a gun is error-prone) and it would be consistent with how you carry the gun otherwise.

Regarding DA revolvers, I have 5 DA revolvers. I'm an NRA certified firearms instructor. I'm well aware of the procedure to decock a Da revolver, since I regularly teach it. That said, I have yet to have had to do it on a live chamber. The only time when you would need to do it is when you cocked the trigger and then decided not to fire.

As for SA revolvers, I have one of those as well, and have also never decocked on live chamber. Once again, the only time you would need to do so is if you cocked the trigger and then decided not to fire.

I'm waiting, but I have yet to hear anyone explain a plausible reason as to why they would carry a 1911 condition 2. I can understand condition 1. I can even understand condition 3 (though I do not carry that way myself). Condition 2 I just don't get.

 

[Majic]

M1911, let me ask why you can't accept that some people will do things that you may never understand? You have asked people for their reasoning in why they have their pistols in condition 2, then deem the reasons unplausible. Just because it doesn't make sense to you really have no bearing on how others may think. Obviously a 1911 pistol in condition 2 is not for you and that's fine, but just accept that others think differently from you. You may be an instructor, but everyone else is not your student if their ideas counters yours.
So let's all be friends, use the decockers as you decide, and everybody toe the firing line and have fun.

 

[Grump]

I can report success... of sorts. By holding the trigger back and releasing the decocking lever smartly from the very bottom of its stroke, my P226 will fire.

I'm going to try to replicate this. What you describe sounds like the hammer has already lowered to the intercept ledge, but still has enough energy remaining to fire a primer IF crisply released from that position AND the trigger is far enough back to release the firing pin safety.

For the rest of this discussion, I must add, --as a lawyer!!-- that too many of these statements of it's "safe" to manually decock seem to be based on an assumption that the pistol will not fire if the trigger is also released. True enough for modern revolvers (at least the reputable ones with more than just a spring-operated rebound--I have a true story on that one) and for autopistols with firing pin safeties, but NOT true for original M1911s. Until you get the hammer lowered below the energy threshold to fire the primer, your only true safety feature is between your ears and it's the well-stated maxim that you MUST keep the gun pointed in a safe direction throughout the entire operation.

We will prefer to have additional mechanical safeties to reduce the risks of decocking, but even then, you keep it pointed in a safe direction, taking into account the penetration/backstop environment.

For any pistol with a firing pin safety, I see condition two as a viable option for those who choose it and are willing to deal with the uncertainties of hammer-cocking (in single action models at least). I especially agree with the rationale that condition one is only for times when you have full control over the firearm. You must admit that stupid kids must take more stupid actions to accidentally shoot themselves/someone with a condition two gun than one left in condition one.

The Three Rules should be drilled into our kids from preschool.--then our extremely rare accidental killings will decrease even more.

 

[M1911]

Magic:

I was responding to jem375 who said:

when I carry my 1911 in the woods, it is in condition 2.....I don't need it cocked and locked in that situation

I don't understand that explanation and questioned it. In particular, I questioned his reasoning behind sometimes carrying it one way (condition 1) and sometimes another (condition 2). That seems to me to a recipe for confusion under stress (when you can least afford confusion). I await his response.

I've read your response, but I have to admit that I don't find it compelling either. Of course, I'm comfortable carrying a revolver or a Glock. Both are point and shoot and neither makes me nervous. I keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to shoot and I'm confident the gun won't start without me. I'm a lot more worried about slipping while decocking than about having an AD because the safety was off.

M1911

 

[jem375]

M1911.............why in the world would I carry my 1911 cocked and locked in the woods??????.... what are you expecting to come out and grab me, one of those big hairy creatures?... I don't carry my Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 mag with the hammer back either...By now if you can't understand that I have been carrying this way for a long, long time, and know how to do it, that's too bad........

 

[Mute]

M1911.............why in the world would I carry my 1911 cocked and locked in the woods??????.... what are you expecting to come out and grab me, one of those big hairy creatures?... I don't carry my Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 mag with the hammer back either...By now if you can't understand that I have been carrying this way for a long, long time, and know how to do it, that's too bad........

Uh......then why does it need to be in Condition 2?

 

[jem375]

Mute..........and why not be in condition 2??? what do you suppose is going to happen?????? is it going to go off by itself???......If I drop it on the hammer, will it go off??... the answer is no.....I have been using exterior hammer handguns, rifles, and shotguns for many years, and simply know how to use them......

 

[Mute]

You can do what you want, but I have seen someone get an unwanted discharge while trying to lower the hammer on a loaded 1911. So again, what does condition 2 do for you that condition 1 or 3 won't do?

 

[roo_ster]

Condition 2 Confusion

OK, lemme see if I can sum up the "Whys" of pro-C2...

Majic:

Condition 1 is fine when you have full control of the pistol. You know exactly where it's at and how it's oriented. You aquire the grip, bring it up on target, flip off the safety as you aquire the trigger and fire.

So, Majic puts his 1911 in C2 because, when his 1911 is off his body, he is afraid he'll knock off the thumb safety and cause an AD.

Is this a fair summary, Majic?

jem375:

when I carry my 1911 in the woods, it is in condition 2.....I don't need it cocked and locked in that situation....I don't carry my Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 mag with the hammer back either

No reason "why" given (other than "why not?", which really doesn't help understand the "why" and reasons why he doesn't need C1). Just stated "what" he does and "when."

Do you think this accurate, jem375?


BluesBear:

I have been decocking 1911 pattern pistols for over 30 years now.
In fact I do it at least once a day. On my person my Colt Govt Series 80 is cocked and locked in a thumb break holster. Off of my person it is Condition 2, hammer down on a loaded chamber.

Wrote when carries C2 (off body) and for how long (30 years) No reason given as to "why."

Fair, BluesBear?

***************

Majic's reasoning is something I can understand, though I may not agree with it. (I sometimes worry about the same thing and stuff my 1911 in an old POS nylon holster at night on the nightstand. I'm starting not to worry as the 1911 becomes ever more familiar.)

I can't argue with or understand jem375's reasoning, as none was given in the positive sense. (Example: "THIS is why I carry C2!") I don't think the Ruger SBH comparison is valid, as the 1911 was designed with the thimb safety & the SBH has no safety other than its DA trigger pull.

A similar situation exists with BluesBear's reasoning. I learned "how" he does it and really good info on how to do it safely and what hammer mods to make, but no "why."

****************

Might I suggest a reason? Habit. Training. As in, "This is the way I was trained how to do it & thhis is the way I've always done it, so that's the way I'm gonna do it."

Is the above valid, Majic, jem375, and BluesBear?

****************

I've shot 1911s off & on but only bought one last year. I am thouroughly familiar with its manual of arms and generally carry C1, but am open to a compelling argument in favor of C2. Majic has come close.

 

[Majic]

The bottom line is that you are right jfruser. We have developed our own techniques and apply them to our usage of the 1911. Some don't understand why we do this and that's to be understood, but why are we asked to explain what we do then have our explanations tossed back in our faces with an added lecture?
Neither one of us have said that others should do as we do. We use the 1911 in the other conditions when we see the purpose for it. Based on past posts of both Blues and Jem they seem very experinced. You judge me as you will. Why are people questioning and lecturing us on something we are fully capable of and quite comfortable with because they choose not to do it? Have I harmed anyone? Have you been around me to feel unsafe? I've done a pretty good job of looking out for my hide so far. No need to change now just because others think something is wrong in what I'm doing.

 

[jem375]

some of you guys need to go and read up on the history of the 1911, and why it was designed to be carried cocked and locked and by whom...... I am not on horseback and can use both hands...............

 

[Mute]

No need to get defensive. No one is suggesting that you should switch from condition 2 carry to condition 1. However, if there are situations where condition 2 makes more sense, we'd like to know since all of us are students of the use of arms. However, if it's just a "that's how I've always done it" that's fine also, but curiosity demands an answer especially when there are newbies to the 1911 platform who might be trying to decide for themselves which method to use. They can't do that if they are basing their decision on less than detailed information.

 

[M1911]

why in the world would I carry my 1911 cocked and locked in the woods

First, I believe in the KISS Principle -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. When I train with my 1911, it is condition 1. The 1911 I keep in a lock box in my office is condition 1. When I put a 1911 in my holster, it is condition 1. I ALWAYS know the condition of the gun -- it is condition 1. If, God forbid, I ever need to use my 1911 in anger, I figure that I'll have a whole lot of things to think about in a very short amount of time -- where is cover, where is the bad guy, does the bad guy have a partner, do I have a safe backstop, can I run away, etc. I do not intend to complicate things at that time by having to wonder whether the gun is in condition X or condition Y. It will be in condition 1, end of story. All I need to do to bring it into action is lower the safety, press trigger, and repeat as necessary.

Second, why in the world would I ever carry my 1911 cocked and locked here in safe suburbia? After all, I seldom go out late at night, I stay away from bad parts of town, and I park under a light . There have been more than a few murders on the Appalachian Trail.

If I ever need my gun, I figure that I'll need it real bad and I'll need it right now. Whether that is in the woods, in my house, or in the mall.

Put it this way, why would you ever need your 1911 in the woods at all? Probably the same reasons that you would need it outside of the woods. So why do something different in the woods?

Think about it this way, suppose you are walking in the woods, condition 2. You are minding your own business, thinking your own thoughts, when you turn a corner, and out of the corner of your eye, you see a man. He starts walking towards you, talking to you. Something feels not right. Do you pull out your gun, charge the chamber, so that you are in condition 1 like you train? Perhaps he's just some lonely guy who wants to talk. Or not. Do you wait, and possibly have to draw your gun, but you've practiced condition 1, so perhaps you'll forget to cock the hammer?

 

[jem375]

the 1911 is not my conceal carry handgun........I still will carry it in cond. 2..

 

[Amish_Bill]

A 'decocking' incident several feet from me put a .45 caliber hole through a desk and nearly a wall. Every time I think of manually decocking an auto, I think of that.

As for carry condition, no matter what I carry, I want as few obstacles between my decision to shoot and 'Bang' as possible. To be perfectly candid, it took me a while to get use to that idea of carrying a pistol where a safety was a recommended option. Before this I carried a 92f chambered, decocked, safety off, a Walther P99 (no safety), various Glocks (no safeties), revolvers (no safeties), and a DAO .40 (no safety). The idea that for safety reasons I had to use a safety on the 1911 style pistols threw me for a while.

 

[jem375]

Amish_Bill...........a lot of people won't carry a Glock with a round in the chamber either......but, the majority do even though there are AD's that happen all the time......it really comes down to what you are comfortable with, I like the cond. 2 carry because it is not a problem with me....