Single action, hammer down

[Malamute]

If your thumb slips decocking a revolver you will get a discharge. Hopefully you would have had the revolver pointed in a "safe" direction.

Hopefully it wont be hope that keeps it pointed at something you don't want to shoot. Should be habit and awareness.

Not a personal comment, just a generalization on the topic.

 

[jeepnik]

Since we veered off into revolvers a bit. There is one thing I always wondered about.

On Colt BP cap & ball revolvers you could lower the hammer between the chambers, and thus safely carry all six chambers loaded. I've never figured out why this wasn't carried forward onto their cartridge revolvers.

Also, I wonder just how frequently early cartridge revolvers really were carried with one chamber empty. Seems to me someone going into harms way would want as many rounds on tap as possible. I do know that one of my ancestors who was a lawman in Nevada carried his handgun fully loaded.

Oh, he also preferred a double barreled shotgun which might explain why he never needed the revolver.

 

[RX-79G]

Probably because of the location of the cap vs primer. NAA rimfires can be carried that way, for the same reason.

 

[Malamute]

Since we veered off into revolvers a bit. There is one thing I always wondered about.

On Colt BP cap & ball revolvers you could lower the hammer between the chambers, and thus safely carry all six chambers loaded. I've never figured out why this wasn't carried forward onto their cartridge revolvers.

Also, I wonder just how frequently early cartridge revolvers really were carried with one chamber empty. Seems to me someone going into harms way would want as many rounds on tap as possible. I do know that one of my ancestors who was a lawman in Nevada carried his handgun fully loaded.

There are a few folks that believe it was all a recent fabrication of Ruger to justify their new model type action, but history tells us very differently. Ive seen references into the 1880s discussing the method, Elmer Keith wrote of it in the 20s and 30s, saying it was widely used, and he learned from those that had been around in the late 1800s. A few that felt they knew better, and he mentioned several people he knew of that had shot themselves in the leg while saddling a horse with a fully loaded Colt SAA.

If you push the near side stirrup over the top of the saddle to tie the cinch, and the stirrup falls back and hits the hammer, its enough force to shear the sear notch in the hammer or break the tip off the trigger. Dropping the gun is another issue with a fully loaded Colt Single Action. I do know one guy that was carrying a Ruger old model 22 when doing fence work and carrying it fully loaded. He impacted the hammer when it was in the holster and shot himself in the leg. He was quite a ways out, and ended up losing the leg.

Ive carried Colts with the firing pin down between the rims of both 45 Colt and 44 spl, thinking it should be perfectly safe. It didnt turn out to be. My holster was a half flap the fitted the gun well, so nothing pushed the hammer back enough to let the cylinder turn, yet many times I discovered the gun with the firing pin resting on a live primer. It would have been safer to have it on the safe notch than resting right on the primer. I stopped doing it.

If circumstances indicated a higher level of concern, Id occasionally load 6, but was very aware of it at the time and pulled one when circumstances seemed to allow.

Going into harms way can have many interpretations. Just everyday life may be hair raising at times, but mind numbingly boring as to day to day details. If going after a known dangerous person it may be justified in topping off for the duration of hostilities.

I do hope nobody brings up the old wives tail about storing money in an empty chamber again....

 

[jeepnik]

There are a few folks that believe it was all a recent fabrication of Ruger to justify their new model type action, but history tells us very differently. Ive seen references into the 1880s discussing the method, Elmer Keith wrote of it in the 20s and 30s, saying it was widely used, and he learned from those that had been around in the late 1800s. A few that felt they knew better, and he mentioned several people he knew of that had shot themselves in the leg while saddling a horse with a fully loaded Colt SAA.

If you push the near side stirrup over the top of the saddle to tie the cinch, and the stirrup falls back and hits the hammer, its enough force to shear the sear notch in the hammer or break the tip off the trigger. Dropping the gun is another issue with a fully loaded Colt Single Action. I do know one guy that was carrying a Ruger old model 22 when doing fence work and carrying it fully loaded. He impacted the hammer when it was in the holster and shot himself in the leg. He was quite a ways out, and ended up losing the leg.

Ive carried Colts with the firing pin down between the rims of both 45 Colt and 44 spl, thinking it should be perfectly safe. It didnt turn out to be. My holster was a half flap the fitted the gun well, so nothing pushed the hammer back enough to let the cylinder turn, yet many times I discovered the gun with the firing pin resting on a live primer. It would have been safer to have it on the safe notch than resting right on the primer. I stopped doing it.

If circumstances indicated a higher level of concern, Id occasionally load 6, but was very aware of it at the time and pulled one when circumstances seemed to allow.

Going into harms way can have many interpretations. Just everyday life may be hair raising at times, but mind numbingly boring as to day to day details. If going after a known dangerous person it may be justified in topping off for the duration of hostilities.

I do hope nobody brings up the old wives tail about storing money in an empty chamber again....

Good points. But, I still wonder why Colt didn't put notches in the cylinder for the firing pin to ride in. And, yes I can see the cylinder slipping into battery if one tries carrying with the hammer down between chambers on a Colt.

 

[RX-79G]

Is there room for the notches with a centerfire, and is the big exposed hammer still going to cause a half chamber rotation if bumped?

What works on a tiny NAA may not on something full size.


Anyway, it isn't like there hasn't been a better method used for more than a century.

 

[jeepnik]

I've heard folks mention that there isn't enough room between the case rims for the notches. And it does appear this way. Since it was a completely new handgun there seems to be no reason Colt couldn't have increased the cylinder diameter to allow for the notches.

 

[Jim Watson]

Elmer Keith and Henry Stebbins recommended 5 loaded.

Colt literature from 1880s described loading 6 and placing the hammer in the "safety" quarter cock notch.

You can, or could, get a holster with a strap punched for the firing pin. The hammer down on the strap held the gun in the holster and the firing pin away from the primer.

Colt percussion revolvers had notches in the hammer face and "safety pins" between nipples. Most are worn down beyond usefulness.
The CSA had a Better Idea. The Augusta and Rigdon, Ainsley revolvers copy the Colt pretty closely but have twelve bolt notches in the cylinder so the gun is held safe between chambers by the bolt, same as for firing.

Remington had safety notches in the rear face of the cylinder, a sturdier arrangement picked up by Ruger.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I found I could rest the firing pin on .45 Uberti SAA clone between the rims without difficulty. Never carried it that way, just used it at the range.

 

[Malamute]

Good points. But, I still wonder why Colt didn't put notches in the cylinder for the firing pin to ride in. And, yes I can see the cylinder slipping into battery if one tries carrying with the hammer down between chambers on a Colt.

It seemed ok on the Colts I tried it with, both 45s and 44 spls, but neither stayed in place in actually carrying the gun around, driving, riding motorcycles on road and on forest service dirt roads, and walking. I couldn't figure out what was acting to move the cylinder to rotate, which I think was the cause, more so than the hammer being allowed backwards movement. Handling the guns, I could rotate the cylinder by hand and make it move from between the rims. Other brass it may have different results, but it was just simpler to carry with 5 unless circumstances justified topping off temporarily.

I found I could rest the firing pin on .45 Uberti SAA clone between the rims without difficulty. Never carried it that way, just used it at the range.

If I were going to leave one around the house at ready Id consider it, but for carry I decided to not be as adventurous as I once was. It may boil down to the saying "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Actually carrying them so didn't work out that well for me.

I have no issue with carrying a percussion Colt type loaded with 6, the pin arrangement was more secure than the firing pin locking the cylinder in place. It could well be that Colt felt the safety notch on the new Army revolver was all that was required, but in fairly rough use, it could cause grief, and most users simply left an empty chamber under the hammer and were done. Carrying an extra gun if serious trouble were expected may be more of a discussion than whether to load 5 or 6 in the belt gun.

 

[Tim L]

Going back to semi autos, an interesting Single action semi auto was the Radom P35, which was designed for the Polish Cavalry in the 1930s. It was designed with a slide mounted decocker and would be carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

 

[RX-79G]

Going back to semi autos, an interesting Single action semi auto was the Radom P35, which was designed for the Polish Cavalry in the 1930s. It was designed with a slide mounted decocker and would be carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

The designer was responding to the way guns were used at the time. Look at the nearly adopted Remington M53 - like the Colt 1910 it had a hammer but no safety.

 

[Ironicaintit]

The designer was responding to the way guns were used at the time. Look at the nearly adopted Remington M53 - like the Colt 1910 it had a hammer but no safety.

I always thought (maybe I read it) that decockers were designed into pistols, because of the jostling and bumps that happen while riding on horseback.

I set the hammer down on a live round with my BHP every day as I go to lock it up in my car when I get to work... one handed, no biggie.
That's one of my gripes about the 1911... Kind of need 2 hands to do it.

 

[Panzerschwein]

The 7.62mm Tokarev was designed to be carried with the hammer at a sort of "half cock". Here is my Romanian TTC:

 

[RX-79G]

I always thought (maybe I read it) that decockers were designed into pistols, because of the jostling and bumps that happen while riding on horseback.

I set the hammer down on a live round with my BHP every day as I go to lock it up in my car when I get to work... one handed, no biggie.
That's one of my gripes about the 1911... Kind of need 2 hands to do it.

Decockers are definitely an upgrade, but the 1911 has a patented grip safety design specifically to allow you to lower the hammer with your firing hand thumb.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Decockers are definitely an upgrade, but the 1911 has a patented grip safety design specifically to allow you to lower the hammer with your firing hand thumb.

Well, at least on my para, I can't manage to keep the grip safety engaged while lowering the hammer. For me, it takes two hands. I am out of practice, admittedly.

 

[RX-79G]

Well, at least on my para, I can't manage to keep the grip safety engaged while lowering the hammer. For me, it takes two hands. I am out of practice, admittedly.

Yeah, the modern beavertail is harder to deal with. But the idea is that when you pull the hammer all the way down the hammer depresses the safety without the web of your hand against the grip.

 

[RMc]

Just an observation: Early 1911 pistols had wide flared shape. This made secure lowering of the hammer with the "weak" hand easy - while pointing the handgun in a safe direction.

 

[Malamute]

In case it didn't come across clearly, in the original 1911 design, you can lower the hammer one handed by pulling the hammer all the way back from full cock to push in the grip safety by its upper rearmost tip, pull the trigger, which then holds the grip safety in, and lower the hammer with the shooting hand. Not ideal in todays way of thinking, but it works. Not sure why one would want to do that besides handiness to lower the hammer on an empty chamber.

Not sure the wider hammer spur actually helps get a grip on it, the checkering was very fine and not that great of a gripping surface. The current deeply grooved hammers I think are better in that regard.

...I set the hammer down on a live round with my BHP every day as I go to lock it up in my car when I get to work... one handed, no biggie...

Curious why you lower the hammer on a live round when leaving it?

 

[azrocks]

I consider a single-action anything the absolute worst choice for a pocket gun.

You've listed the advantages of carrying hammer down, but are there any advantages whatsoever to carrying a single-action pocket pistol vs something more appropriate for the task?

The fact we're discussing sub-optimal carry methods to accomodate a single-action in a role it really wasn't designed for my be indication other options would be preferable.

 

[MedWheeler]

^^ Wouldn't this be for another thread? Your question, as phrased, indicates that there is no answer you would accept. You use the phrase "vs. something more appropriate.."

There can be no "advantages" over something "more appropriate."

 

[azrocks]

^^ Wouldn't this be for another thread? Your question, as phrased, indicates that there is no answer you would accept. You use the phrase "vs. something more appropriate.."

There can be no "advantages" over something "more appropriate."

I see you're back trying to teach me how to post, what to post, and when to post it.

How 'bout you just mind your business and worry about what YOU post?

Getting tired of trying to be nice to you when all you do is bust my b***s. You've been on my case since my first post. It's really getting old.

 

[Ed Ames]

I consider a single-action anything the absolute worst choice for a pocket gun.

Two words: Chocolate gun.

Just putting things in perspective.

My grandfather carried a single action Beretta mousegun for many years, and used it to kill many an innocent snake. As with so many of his choices, it is not one that I would personally make but it doesn't seem to have been bad per se.

You've listed the advantages of carrying hammer down, but are there any advantages whatsoever to carrying a single-action pocket pistol vs something more appropriate for the task?

Sure. Pocket guns are small and therefore notoriously hard to shoot accurately. A light trigger pull can somewhat offset that problem, somewhat balancing the compromises of carrying a tiny gun.

The fact we're discussing sub-optimal carry methods to accomodate a single-action in a role it really wasn't designed for my be indication other options would be preferable.

You are assuming that two of your opinions are objective facts, but others don't share that assumption. Your opinion is that hammer down is sub-optimal, and that single-action is not appropriate for pocket carry, but other people obviously hold different views.

 

[JTQ]

I consider a single-action anything the absolute worst choice for a pocket gun.

You've listed the advantages of carrying hammer down, but are there any advantages whatsoever to carrying a single-action pocket pistol vs something more appropriate for the task?

I suspect it would be more advantageous than carrying a gun that has no safety, such that simply pulling the trigger, whether intentionally, or unintentionally, would cause the gun to fire.

 

[jimbo555]

If we're talking about single action pocket guns with outside hammers we're talking about the colt mustang and the sig p238 in autos and the naa minis. No grip safeties in those models and small round hammers much harder to handle than the original 1911 hammer. I agree with azrocks, there's better options for pocket carry if safety is your primary concern.