Marine Corps vs. Navy rifle qualification....

[huskydriver]

Ok, this may sound petty, but got a guy claiming that his Navy marksmanship medal is superior to my expert badge I earned while in the Marine Corps over 20 years ago. We've both tried to search different standards and hadn't come up with anything. He was a Seabee and said he had to qualify with a rifle, but couldn't tell me which course he did. I did the standard 200,300, 500 sitting, standing, and prone. He is going off the Wikipedia statement that the Marksman badge is equivalent to the Army and Marine Corps expert badge. Thanks.

 

[jmr40]

Meet him at the range, loser buys lunch.

 

[Reloadron]

If you qualified in the Marine Corps 20 years ago (I qualified over 46 years ago) you spent two full weeks of basic training on the range. Your first week was "snapping in" and the second week was live fire under the guidance of a Range PMI (Preliminary Marksmanship Instructor) as well as range personnel and your drill instructors. The Marine Corps places more emphasis on marksmanship training than any other service and did more so during the days of the M1 Garand and M14, I trained with the latter.

I spent a good many years working with Navy personnel both as a Marine and later as a Civilian and can think of no Navy rifle training that comes close to the Marine Corps, that with the exception of SEAL training. I had good friends with Seal Team One in Coranado.

Yeah, take your friend to the range and get in the positions and see who puts the rounds down range on target.

Ron

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The Navy rifle qualification course of fire starts on page 8

http://doni.daps.dla.mil/Directives...0 Training and Readiness Services/3591.1F.pdf

It's nothing on the USMC course of fire.

 

[Bart B.]

Of course the USN badge may take lesser scores than that of the USMC. Or the US Army and USAF, too. No big deal at all. The top snipers of each service shoot equally well.

At the top echelon of service rifle marksmanship, the Distinguished badge for all services and the USCG, as well as civilians, qualification courses of fire and required scores are equal across everyone. However, the USMC and US Army were sometimes known for bringing in food servers from their mess halls to increase the number of people shooting Excellence in Competition Matches because only the top 10% got credit points towards earning that gold Distinguished badge. Some of them even used Lyman 310 tong tools to reseat the issued match ammo bullets a tiny bit deeper to make them shoot more accurate; a violation of the rules stating that only unaltered ammo must be used.

 

[Sunray]

"...the Wikipedia statement..." Wikipedia is not nor has it ever been a recognised authority on anything. Anybody with internet access can post any daft thing they want there. Tell him that then meet him at the range.

 

[Old Dog]

As a former ground-pounding Sailor who had tours with both NMCBs and USMC, I readily concede that the Marine Corps rifle qualification standards are much, much more intensive and difficult than the USN rifle qual. The first time I qualified Expert (with an M-14), I was shocked, because it was so easy ... The first time I saw the rifle range at Camp Pendleton, I was shocked because the targets were so far away! With iron sights on an M-16, I floundered. While I'm proud of my Navy Pistol and Rifle Expert Medals, I would never be tempted to say that the rifle qualification was the equivalent of the Marines.

Now, the Navy Handgun Qualification Courses, and the Practical Weapons Courses that I always enjoyed, are pretty good ...

 

[W.E.G.]

How about you each attending three EIC matches.

Best two out of three is the best.

Worst thing that could happen is you end up with a new shooting buddy.

 

[Bart B.]

To those familiar with EIC matches, do you know that some people were awarded the Distinguished badge even though they never fired a shot in one?

 

[ku4hx]

When I was in junior high lo these many years ago, I had a buddy who claimed he shot sparrows out of the air with a .22 rifle. The man who was giving me my very first firearms instruction told me to offer him 5 cents for every pair of sparrow feet. I did just that, he never produced the first foot and never made that claim again.

Meet him at the range.

 

[ontarget]

As a 5 award expert with the M16-A2 service rifle while in the USMC it occurs to me that there would be a difference in the skill level required to master the shooting expected from members of different branches of service. His ability to meet USN's qualification are bound to be different than ours were. They have a much different role in combat. USMC RULES.

 

[eddd7]

"Ok, this may sound petty, but got a guy claiming that his Navy marksmanship medal is superior to my expert badge I earned while in the Marine Corps over 20 years ago"

It IS petty. What are we......14 years old? Geeeeesh! In today's time, a match-up would be meaningless compared to back when the two of you were Squids and Jarheads. People age at different rates - duh!

You two........go grab a beer and figure out how we're gonna save the country. Priorities, boys!
Doc Edd Echo 2/4

 

[Panzerschwein]

You're both wrong.

The Air Force expert marksman ribbon is the most prestigious firearms marksmanship award in the U.S. military, and I have one.

Just kidding by the way. If I don't get "expert" every time I qualify, I'm REALLY having a bad day, and I am by no means a great shooter.

 

[1911 guy]

I've shot both courses. I was a Seabee with NMCB 7 and NMCB 23. USN course was shot for score and qualification, USMC course was shot for grins and giggles while training with some jarheads.

The USMC course is indeed a step up from the USN course, but you can't suck if you expect to pass either one, even at "marksman" (USN lowest qualifying score). Shooting Expert in either one is challenging. A bit more challenging for the Marine Corps course of fire.

 

[gunnerh]

OK, I did 26 years in the USCG ,retired out as a CWO (Weapons). I shot expert on the Coast Guard (M-1,M-16),Navy(M-1,M-14) and Marine Corps(M-16) rifle courses. The Marine Corps was the hardest.

 

[Float Pilot]

I am a veteran of the Navy, Army and finally Air Force ( I was getting old)
Not to mention various police agencies.
I have shot the Marine Corp courses, Army Course and the joke that the Air Force calls a qual course. ( although the AF was ahead of some folks when it came to pistols, for awhile.) Oddly enough I never qualified with the Navy during my 6 years with them, I was always sent off to play with the Marines.
The Marines do indeed have the most stringent rifle courses, until you go into some of the advanced rifle courses used for non-standard troops.

 

[herrwalther]

Sounds like Navy is trying to beat his chest. And using Wikipedia is the first step in failing in that goal. Every now and then someone from service X will say their training was harder than Y. Sometimes they are right, others they are dead wrong.

An Air Force commo tech was stationed with my unit overseas. Because of the rural area they gave him some weapons training. His instructors and he claimed it was the same weapon qualification that Army infantry go through. When I asked him the standards for the test, he shot at a 25 yard target that used different sized silhouettes for simulated ranges out to 300 meters. I am aware the target he spoke of, it is a target sometimes used in the Army to zero and never counts for a qualification score.

 

[coloradokevin]

At this risk of being flamed here, I'd say that neither badge is all that impressive to a dedicated shooter. We have a marksmanship badge at work as well, and I've never bothered to get one because the qualification is easy enough that someone with a couple of weeks of trigger time can easily "earn" it.

The Marines may put more emphasis on marksmanship than the Navy (and that's a good thing), but the amount of practice time the average grunt receives is still probably only 1/10th of the practice the average club-level competitive shooter does in a given year.

Whether you're in one branch of the military or another is entirely irrelevant in my mind… the best shooters are the ones who practice religiously on their own time.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Meet him at the range, loser buys lunch.

^^^^ The only way to settle it.


And you get lunch... Or is he a better shot than you?

 

[Coop45]

Everybody knows that the navy invented sex, but the Marines involved women.

 

[chipcom]

All older rifle qualification courses had the same basic weakness...people.

I remember when I broke the range record at MCAS Yuma...as I was waiting for the Armory to open so I could check out my M16A1 I got to talking with a Lt. who was gracious enough to share his canteen full of Jim Beam with me. By the time we got to the range we were both feeling pretty good. He went to the line while I was pulling butts...and by the time I got to the line I was feeling pretty hung over. Hung over or not, despite having a record of mostly Sharpshooter with a few barely made Experts, I shot a range record of 246 or something crazy like that. I was amazed, and I boarded the bus feeling all good about my shooting and how much better I must have concentrated being hung over.

Well, the LT sat down next to me and listened to me gush for a few minutes before he whispered "I was pulling your target, I punched a bull every time you missed".

So much for my dreams of becoming the next Carlos Hathcock!

 

[AABEN]

BOY BOYS lets all call it going back to the ages of 20 years old. Mine is loger than yours HO HO

 

[RUT]

>>If you qualified in the Marine Corps 20 years ago (I qualified over 46 years ago) <<

As did I, only it was 52 years ago. But also on an M14.

 

[lemaymiami]

I was lucky enough to work with some marine vets years ago. All of us were Vietnam vets and I can hear them laughing now if anyone made such a claim. All in good fun of course - but we were long out of the service when I knew them. I was with the 101Abn in 1971 and actually working up near the DMZ (Dong Ha) after the Marines had left... That was a lonely feeling....

 

[USAF_Vet]

The fact the he had to qualify with the rifle due to his MOS should say something right there. As I understand it, not all Navy personnel are required to qualify with the M-16 rifle. On the other hand, all Marines, Soldiers and Airmen do. Granted, scores and courses vary between all of them, but Sailors in general do not qualify with the M-16 unless their career field requires it. What does that tell you?

When I went through basic, I had zero knowledge of the M-16 other that what I learned prior to hitting the range. I passed, just short of Expert. I could probably shoot expert today without a problem. Medals like that don't mean much. Shoot with him side by side on the range.