Marine Corps vs. Navy rifle qualification....

[goon]

It'd be easy enough to settle with necco wafers and a .22 rifle at 100 yards.

 

[Nom de Forum]

An Air Force commo tech was stationed with my unit overseas. Because of the rural area they gave him some weapons training. His instructors and he claimed it was the same weapon qualification that Army infantry go through. When I asked him the standards for the test, he shot at a 25 yard target that used different sized silhouettes for simulated ranges out to 300 meters. I am aware the target he spoke of, it is a target sometimes used in the Army to zero and never counts for a qualification score.

The Air Force commo tech and his instructors were not in error. When a 300 meter range with pop-up silhouette targets is not available units can use The 25 Meter Alternate Qualification Course. This course of fire uses a single large sheet of paper with 10 scaled down silhouette targets representing ranges from 50 to 300 meters. There are head and shoulder silhouettes for one 50 meter shot and three 100 meter shots, head to waist silhouettes for two 150 shots, two 200 meter shots, one 250 meter shot, and one 300 meter shot. Twenty shots are fired prone supported (sand bag) in 2 minutes, followed by Twenty shots fired prone unsupported in 2 minutes.

 

[Quentin]

I qualified Expert/M14 48 years ago, US Army Signal Corps. But I would have needed a lot more training to be a good Marine rifleman.

 

[herrwalther]

The Air Force commo tech and his instructors were not in error.

Indeed he was. Anyone who has been through the Army qualification more than twice knows how long (roughly) each target presents for. The 50m target, for example, is often called "Fast Freddy" for being present for 3 or 4 seconds. Shooting at a static, paper target at simulated ranges is not the same qualification course gone through by combat troops, as claimed.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Indeed he was. Anyone who has been through the Army qualification more than twice knows how long (roughly) each target presents for. The 50m target, for example, is often called "Fast Freddy" for being present for 3 or 4 seconds. Shooting at a static, paper target at simulated ranges is not the same qualification course gone through by combat troops, as claimed. (bold added by NdF)

Yes it is the same if a 300 meter range was not available at least until July 1989. That date is the same as the one printed on the cover of my copy of Field Manual Number 23-9, M16A1 and M16A2 Rifle Marksmanship. Appendix G, Section IX of FM 23-9 explains use of the 25 meter Alternate Course for Qualification. Perhaps it is not true in the U.S. Army of today but it was true 26 years ago. The 25 meter qualification course is also shown in the version of FM 23-9 dated June 1974.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Indeed he was. Anyone who has been through the Army qualification more than twice knows how long (roughly) each target presents for. The 50m target, for example, is often called "Fast Freddy" for being present for 3 or 4 seconds. Shooting at a static, paper target at simulated ranges is not the same qualification course gone through by combat troops, as claimed.

I refer you to FM 3-22.9, Rifle Marksmanship, M16/M4 Series Weapons, dtd 12 Aug 2009, Chapter 6, Section IV, on page 6-16, titled "Alternate Qualification Courses"...

There is a 25 meter scaled target course that is pretty much a Nom de Forum has described, a single sheet with scaled silhouettes. The only thing that changed were the firing positions. Now, it is prone-unsupported - 20 rounds (120 sec), prone-supported - 10 rounds (60 sec), and kneeling-unsupported - 10 rounds (60 sec). The qualification scores are the same, (40-36 exp, etc), but it is annotated in your records that this qualification was done on an alternate course. Scoring uses DA Form 7489-R, which shows the target sheet has not changed since the 1980s.

There is also a 15 meter scaled target course, that uses an indoor range and a .22 LR adapter.

Oh, and the exposure times for the pop-up course are as follows:
50 meter - 3 seconds
100 meter - 4 seconds
150 meter - 5 seconds
200 meter - 6 seconds
250 meter - 7 seconds
300 meter - 8 seconds

When two targets are exposed simultaneously, the exposure times are:
50 & 100 - 6 seconds
100 & 250 - 9 seconds
150 & 200 - 12 seconds
150 & 250 - 9 seconds
150 & 300 - 10 seconds
200 & 300 - 10 seconds

 

[herrwalther]

I am well aware that a 25m target with scaled silhouettes can be used in lieu of ranged, timed qualification. According to regulations. In every unit I have been apart of, it has never been used for a record qualification score in my MOS. Even the National Guard and reserves do not use the scaled qualification if a range is available.

The deviation is my Air Force comm tech friend said it was the same training and qualification that grunts go through. It was not. What he attended was a watered down BRM or Basic Rifle Marksmanship. He did not attend any ARM or convoy firing training that are graduation requirements for a regular infantry soldier.

 

[Nature Boy]

You guys wake me up when you start talking about Tank Table 8

 

[Nom de Forum]

I am well aware that a 25m target with scaled silhouettes can be used in lieu of ranged, timed qualification. According to regulations. In every unit I have been apart of, it has never been used for a record qualification score in my MOS. Even the National Guard and reserves do not use the scaled qualification if a range is available.

You would be wise never to place a bet that 11Bs and other "combat" troops in units you have never been a member of have never used the Alternate 25 meter Qualification course.

The deviation is my Air Force comm tech friend said it was the same training and qualification that grunts go through. It was not. What he attended was a watered down BRM or Basic Rifle Marksmanship. He did not attend any ARM or convoy firing training that are graduation requirements for a regular infantry soldier.

What you have posted in the above paragraph is considerably different from what is conveyed in your other posts. Your previous posts claimed that a 25 meter Qualification Course is never used. Now you have elaborated to include all the additional marksmanship training performed before going to the qualification range. I agree your squid friend did not undergo all of the marksmanship training an 11B receives before or after shooting any one of the several authorized qualification courses of fire.

 

[Nom de Forum]

You guys wake me up when you start talking about Tank Table 8

That's gotta be easier than qualifying Expert with a rifle.

 

[entropy]

We used those 25 yd. Alternate Qualification targets for warm up while waiting to shoot the pop-up course. (Ft.Ord, CA, 1986)

 

[lysanderxiii]

We used the alternate qualification all the time in Germany. Fully functioning 300+ ranges were not that common...

The only time I remember getting to shoot at the pop-ups was when rifle qualification came due around time for our annual visit to Grafenwöhr.

Table VIII for tanks (Bradleys and helicopters as well) is a little bit more involved, as it is crew thing.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Ok, this may sound petty, but got a guy claiming that his Navy marksmanship medal is superior to my expert badge I earned while in the Marine Corps over 20 years ago.

Retired Navy here.

Your guy [edit] is way off base. But, since he's so far off base he probably doesn't even realize he's no longer in the ball park, the best you can do is smile and roll your eyes.


I've got my pistol and rifle expert medals. Earning them wasn't any challenge to me at all...and that's not because Annie Oakley was my great grandmother. It's simply because I grew up hunting small game/varmint and did my share of target shooting.

Marksmanship is lower than the Expert (ribbon vice medal, if you're into tracking the flair).

Back when you earned your expert badge 20 years ago, the Navy was in the midst of transitioning from .45 to 9mm (at least on the subs). The qualification for the .45 was incredibly laughable: 20 out of 30 in the black on a man-sized silhouette target at, if I recall correctly, 7 yards.

That's right...20 out of 30 and they just had to be IN THE BLACK.

Rifle, back when we had the M-14, was a bit more challenging, but no problem for anybody who ever hunted squirrel with a .22.

Shotgun? Stand there and rack 5 rounds through the shotgun and hit the target, however far it was in the indoor range.


Nowadays, the course of fire has changed and they actually score the shoot at varying ranges and methods of fire. Darned if I can remember what passing was, but the maximum score was 240 for pistols. I never scored less than 240.


Again, it's not because the course of fire in the Navy is particularly challenging. If you're not comfortable with firearms or have rarely shot...yeah, it'll be a challenge. But that's anybody starting out.

It's really more of a "familiarization" course, in my opinion.


Now SEAL training is a whole 'nuther matter.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

went through coast guard boot camp in 74 we spent one full week on the range. They must have had money then because we even had a week of evasive driving school. Went through navy prior service boot camp in 78 we spend 1 day classroom and 2 days on the range. I never went to Marine boot and don't have a clue but would about bet my house that they have a more extensive range program then any except maybe the army. I do know that most boot camps have had time drastically cut off of them. When I went through CG it was 16 weeks I think its half that now. The others are all about 8 weeks so cuts have been made and Im sure the CG and Navy and Air force were more likely to cut range time then the Army or Marines.

 

[Grunt]

I qualified expert in the Marines on the 500m KD course and these days being an Air Force CATM instructor I know the Air Force qualifications like the back of my hand. My last GS job also gave me the chance to fire the army qualification course so the only one I haven't had a chance to fire for qual is the Navy version. The Marines take the top prize for actually teaching marksmanship and take it very seriously. Your rifle score WILL play a part in your ability to be promoted! The Air Force qual is a joke with firing at 25 meter reduced scale targets like doing a drive-by on smurf village! The Army has pop up targets but the Marines take the time to deal with sight adjustments, doping the wind, etc and is similar to say an NRA match. It's a true test of marksmanship that the other courses lack. The army will say that it has not realistic for combat but the Marines also have pop up ranges we trained on. It's the marksmanship for qualification that is tested. While there are good shooters and bad shooters in every branch, I would say that given a random sampling, Marines in general tend to be better marksmen than the other branches but that's what the job entails far more than the other branches, every Marine a rifleman.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Here's the difference:
_____________________________________
USMC rifle qualification:

Solve the following: (show any work necessary)

A = 1 + 1 + 1 + (2 x 1)
B = 3 / A
C = 2 x B

Partial credit will be given for any work that is correct.
____________________________________
Army rifle qualification:

"Louie has three apples. He divides all the apples equally between four kids: himself, Little Mike, Fat Tommy and Johnny, except Fat Tommy takes two shares. How much did each kid get?

a) three got half an apple, Tommy got a whole apple
b) three got a third of an apple, Tommy got two-thirds
c) three got three-fifths of an apple, Tommy got a whole apple and one fifth of another apple
d) three got one apple, Tommy got two apples

Scoring is binary, ie you get it wrong or you get it right.
________________________________

The two tests are actually the same, if you do the math.

However, on the surface, the Army test looks more difficult, but when you actually start to answer the question, you realize that it does not really call for much math knowledge, as you can eliminate most of the choices by logic and counting on your fingers. (a) can't be right, three halves and a whole is only two and a half apples, and (d) can't be right as that's five apples, and a little thinking gets you to realize that the correct answer must be have fifths in it as there are five shares (one for three and two for Fat Tommy). It also gives no feedback on where you went wrong if you do not get it right.

The USMC test requires that you show a knowledge of how to add, multiply and divide and will give you some feedback on where you are lacking if you mess up somewhere.

The Marine qualification tests the fundamentals. The Army test solely the application of the fundamentals in a very simplistic form. I would wager any Marine with an expert badge would qualify expert on the USA rifle course, but the reverse is not true.

 

[entropy]

Having qualified expert in the Army, and shot with some Marines, I'd agree with that.

 

[MIL-DOT]

The OP needs to have his buddy read this thread, especially the honest comments from the Navy vets.
And then go shoot circles around him.

 

[bldsmith]

Marksmanship ribbon is the lowest qualification in the Navy. Not at all difficult to get. Then sharpshooter then Expert. If he has the silver E he shot expert. If not he is full of it. Even if he shot E it may have not been nearly as difficult. When I shot my rifle Expert in 1988, it was with the M14 and all at 100M. The Marines shoot 100x more than most Navy personnel. I was an armorer and did not get to shot that much. Even on the rifle pistol team, we would only get 500-1000 rounds per year total to practice with. If we wanted to do more we had to purchase it. Not in my enlisted mans budget.

Now in today's Navy they may shoot a bit more but not that much.

 

[Old Dog]

So RetiredUSNChief said

Back when you earned your expert badge 20 years ago, the Navy was in the midst of transitioning from .45 to 9mm (at least on the subs). The qualification for the .45 was incredibly laughable: 20 out of 30 in the black on a man-sized silhouette target at, if I recall correctly, 7 yards.

That's right...20 out of 30 and they just had to be IN THE BLACK.

I never saw that pistol qual course. Sounds like a fam-fire course -- no way marksmanship ribbons or expert medals would have been awarded for a course like that at any command I was assigned. Twenty years ago, the standard Navy Handgun Qualification Course was a vastly different affair, with shots from the 25, 15, 10, 7 yard lines ... Possible was 300, you needed 228 for Expert. For a while, as an investigator, I was issued a Chief's Special -- yeah, it was a hard course with that little 5-shot J-frame (went to the M-11 after my time, that would've been sweet).

I believe someone earlier in the thread linked to the current OPNAVINST with the current course.

 

[8 ball seabee]

Seabee rifle qualifications

I served with NMCB-8 66-67, at that time we were equipped with the M-14 rifle, the best battle rifle in the world. We spent two weeks at Camp Pendelton on the same rifle range as the Marines. We fire the same course of fire as they did. This was done as that when we deployed to Nam, we were part of the FMF and in support of Marine ground and air units. If administration did the medal paper work. We were issued a rifle medal and ribbon. Ok so it's been almost 50 years since I fired that course, so have that guy buy you several beers. Can Do Marine.