Marine shooting in Iraq justified-poll

JUstified?

  • Justified

    Votes: 230 70.8%
  • Not Justified

    Votes: 12 3.7%
  • Not enough info to tell

    Votes: 83 25.5%

  • Total voters
    325
  • Poll closed .
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As a physician I can tell you medical humor would sound alwful to those outside the profession. Sig would never make it through Gross Anatomy without calling for an investigation done by some ethics committee. I remember when I was doing an ER rotation during my intern year. We had just run a code on a patient that died. A freshman student fainted. The Attending Physician went and got a boom box and slapped in a tape and out came screming the song " Boom, Boom, Boom-------Another one Bites the Dust------Boom, Boom Boom. That is just one such example. :evil:
 
i wasnt there shooting that guy want to give them medals for there (sic) behaviour (sic)?
Yep.

if this was your son acting like this would ya be proud of it?
A little.

would ya be comfortable showing that to your clergyman if you were the one in that video?
Nope. I don't have a clergyman. But I'd show it to Preacherman.

would ya be showing your neighbors hey thats my son bubba shooting the dying A-rab and then doing high fives aint he the coolest
If they were interested in such things, then yes.

me thinks this will be another al qaeda recruiting video
Well, every time a terrorist dies it serves their recruiting purpose. Should we stop killing terrorists?

if its ok to shoot wounded prisoners is it ok to rape there women too?
Again, sigmaman - they weren't prisoners. How many times must this be repeated?
 
"Gallows Humor", "Black Humor", "Cop Humor", etc: Whatever label, "sick" humor has been around for centuries. It's merely a way to preserve some semblance of sanity in insane or horrible situations.

I'd have to say that being in the middle of shooting and explosions would qualify as a wee tad rough on the psyche...

But I'm not even gonna bother to speculate until after the investigation is done...

Art
 
DocZinn said:
Again, sigmaman - they weren't prisoners. How many times must this be repeated?

well if you keep repeating it then it must be true
al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11
al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11
al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11 al qaeda/ 9/11
ok we have established a link between saddam and 9/11

tooth fairy / santa claus tooth fairy / santa claus
tooth fairy / santa claus tooth fairy / santa claus
tooth fairy / santa claus tooth fairy / santa claus
tooth fairy / santa claus tooth fairy / santa claus
ok santa and the tooth fairy exist now

this is fun
 
sigmaman said:
tell me these guys werent having fun?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm
see i think your making comments without seeing the video
go ahead click on the link it wont hurt ya
then come back and rationalise that behaviour

Since you obviously have trouble reading things and insist on posting that same video in every post I shall RE-post my response to it.

Yep, that's war alright. When you have an enemy in your sights you kill them. That's the way it is. Wounded soldiers have been used for bait to shoot other soldiers when they came to rescue ever since the beginning of war. Why let an enemy get away only to be healed up and come back to kill you another day?
 
Petition In Support Of Fallujah Marine...Sign it...Send it....Pass it along...

http://www.petitiononline.com/as123/petition.html

To: U.S. Congress

Friday November 12 2004

U.S.Marines were fired upon by snipers and insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades from a mosque and an adjacent building. The Marines returned fire with tank shells and machine guns.

They eventually stormed the mosque, killing 10 insurgents and wounding five others, and showing a cache of rifles and grenades for journalists.

The Marines told the pool reporter that the wounded insurgents would be left behind for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. But Saturday, another squad of Marines found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again.

Four of the insurgents appeared to have been shot again in Saturday's fighting, and one of them appeared to be dead, according to the pool report. In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the insurgents appeared to be breathing.

A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."

The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the insurgents head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."

The camera then shows two Americans pointing weapons at another Iraqi insurgent lying motionless. But one of the Marines step back as the insurgent stretches out his hand, motioning that he is alive. The other Marine stands his ground, but neither of them fires.

When told by the pool reporter that the men were among those wounded in Friday's firefight, the Marine who fired the shot said, "I didn't know, sir. I didn't know."

"You can hear the tension in those Marines' voices. One is saying, 'He's faking it. He's faking it,'" Heyman said. "In a combat infantry soldier's training, he is always taught that his enemy is at his most dangerous when he is severely wounded."

A Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent.

NBC reported that the Marine seen shooting the Iraqi insurgent had himself been shot in the face the day before, but quickly returned to duty.

About a block away, a Marine was killed and five others wounded by a booby-trapped body they found in a house after a shootout with insurgents.

Amnesty International has noted reports that insurgents have used mosques as fighting positions, and have used white flags to lure Marines into ambushes.

The Marine who shot the insurgent has been withdrawn from the battlefield pending the results of an investigation, the U.S. military said.

These terrorists do not follow the rules of war. These terrorists kill innocent women by disemboweling them, cut of the heads of innocent truck drivers, detonate car bombs in crowds full of innocent people, and fly planes into buildings filled with innocent Americans.

It is my opinion that NOTHING should happen to this American Marine. He should be returned to his unit or be given an honorable discharge. We don't need our young men and women taking an extra second to decide if its right to shoot an enemy terrorist when that could mean that one of our soldiers could lose their life. The lives of our soldiers should be the single most important factor in this war against terrorism. The rights of terrorists can come second.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned
 
works both ways

check out this video
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm


Dear Sir;

I saw both the video on the front page and read the letters from the Marines.

Disgusting.

I too, am recently returned from seven months in Iraq, with a Division Cavalry unit. I see nothing to defend in that video and am glad that you have archived it so that others can see it. As a scout with over twenty years in the Army, mostly in combat units, I would say that what is captured on the video appears to be murder and in violation of the Law
of Land Warfare.

This is not how warriors behave but how thugs operate. If the Iraqi man was indeed laying in ambush or setting an IED, then it is entirely appropriate to shoot him and to shoot him until he is no longer a threat. Once he ceased combat operations however, it became the soldiers' job to treat him and give him the same aid they would have one of our wounded soldiers receive.

That's how the Law of Land Warfare works.

To use him as a target and appear so joyful about it demonstrates that murder occurred and not combat operations. That is not a reflection of how callous all the soldiers are or what is encouraged or allowed in units. That unit has a problem. Any commander that glosses over that incident is neglecting his duty.

In the opening days of the war, our medics treated many Iraqi casualties, sometimes heroically. That's what you do. Its the law. I have no love lost for Iraqis, especially after watching the ones so happy to get a handout dance so gleefully in soldier's blood.

Our troops killed plenty, engaging in combat actions. My instructions to soldiers on missions almost always included the words - "if at anytime you feel threatened, shoot, shoot first and shoot center mass." But at no time were any of our soldiers instructed, allowed or countenanced to murder an injured person, be he combatant or not. I took pride that my commander insisted we "keep our mean faces on. We are not here to make
friends" but also insisted on the humane treatment, even recommending our PA for an award solely for working heroically on an Iraqi casualty.

This man had attempted to engage our forces, was shot and shot bad and eventually died. No one was happy that a human died. We understood that if we are to expect to be treated a certain way upon injury or capture, then we must treat the enemy the same way. That's what warriors do.

1SG Perry D. Jefferies <[email protected]>
Copperas Cove, TX

www.jeffzed.org
...information wants to be free...

rationalise this
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm
 
Thanks for the link Intruder13. Signed as well, and past onto email buddies.

Yep sigmaman, thats what happens in war. People shooting at other people, some of whom get killed. Shooting at the guys in uniform when there is a war going is just asking to get shot at in return, and sometimes treated none to politely when the shooting stops. Its one of the risks of participating in warfare.

Personally, I have no problems with the way this Marine performed his duties in time of war.
ifthis had been an american and the roles reversed would it of been murder?
Nope. If my enemy subdues me in combat, then runs off to contine the battle elsewhere, leaving me to my own devices, I'm gonna do what I can to continue the fight when he comes back, since our differences have not yet been resolved. One of the duties and risks of war one assumes when one chooses to participate.
 
I sincerely doubt the Marine will be convicted of murder. He might get busted for not following orders, unless he misunderstood an order from his chain of command. We're not supposed to shoot unarmed persons, period. There is an operative word "reasonable" in how we judge someone to be unarmed.

Do I think it was a good shoot? No, probably not. Things happen. I hope the guy doesn't get nailed to as political appeasement, I do hope the guy gets a fair investigation. If he was indeed a nutter executing people for amusement, he needs a long stay in a padded room. If he thought his platoon sergeant ordered him to shoot someone that possibly had a weapon, "oops" would be appropriate.

I sincerely worry about the people on this forum that advocated killing or "things happening" to reporters. Anyone advocating killing of reporters that bring further possible misconduct of government personnel need serious help. Same goes for people advocating killing anyone that brings to light "unpatriotic" information.
 
hello from Iraq...

I am honored to be serving with the few and the proud right now. I am not in Fallujah, but these men are behaving honorably and well amidst difficut scenarios. Don't judge them too harshly or severly based upon a video tape. After all Moondoggie pointed out that the many video tapes of civilian beheadings hasn't prompted outrage from the Arab world - merely a quiet acceptance of 'win at all costs.'

Fyi...

This is one story of many that people normally don't hear, and one that everyone does.This is just one most don't hear: A young Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with Ak-47's and RPG's. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying, "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly wounded, lying in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly walk toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies come from behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds that of the outside, and the concussion seems to be felt before the blast is heard. Marines outside rush to the room, and look in horror as the dust gradually settles. The result is a room filled with the barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by an insurgent setting off several pounds of explosives. The Marines' remains are gathered by teary eyed comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a box. The families can only mourn over a casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short by someone who hid behind a white flag. But no one hears these stories, except > those who have lived to carry remains of a friend, and the families who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares.

This is the story everyone hears: A young Marine and his fire team cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insugent can be heard saying,"Mister,mister! Diktoor, diktoor (doctor)!" He is badly wounded.Suddenly, he pulls from under his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the room, killing one Marine, wounding the others. The young Marine catches shrapnel in the face.The next day, same Marine, same type of situation, a different story. The young Marine and his cover man enter a room with two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in puddle of blood, another against the wall. A reporter and his camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the background can be heard the voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's moving!" The pop of a rifle is heard, and the insurgent against the wall is now dead. Minutes, hours later, the scene is aired on national television, and the Marine is being held for commiting a war crime. Unlawful killing. And now, another Marine has the possibility of being burned at the stake for protecting the life of his brethren. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming down their face. Brother, should I have been in your boots, I too would have done the same. For those of you who don't know, we Marines, Band of Brothers, Jarheads, Leathernecks, etc., do not fight because we think it is right, or think it is wrong. We are here for the man to our left, and the man to our right. We choose to give our lives so that the man or woman next to us can go home and see their husbands, wives, children, friends and families. For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television, and choose to condemn this man's actions, I have but one thing to say to you. Get out of you recliner, lace up your boots, pick up a rifle, leave your Family behind and join me. See what I've seen, walk where I have walked. To those of you who support us, my sincerest gratitude. You keep us alive. I am a Marine currently doing his second tour in Iraq. These are my opinions and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or of the
US military, or any other.

Sincerely,

LCPL (I have deleted his name)
USMC
 
r

Code:
I don't know if the UCMJ has a charge equivalent to manslaughter

They don't award decorations from a courts martial, and if this marine is charged and goes to his courts martial, you can bet they are going to convict him of something.

If all else fails, conduct unbecoming is the original Catch-22. Even if he is not charged with anything at the courts martial, the record will follow that man for the rest of his military days. Very few people stay in the military after a courts martial, even the few who are found totally without blame. The military takes a very dim view of any serving person who brings unfavorable light on them-whether it is justified or not.

Only attended one courts martial-not mine, and from those proceedings, I'd say the situation is a flip-flop. More like you have to prove your innocence than something assumed until the evidence is weighed.

Ought to be pretty satisfying to some like Sigma-man, who already tried and convicted the man based on a few minutes of tape. Hopefully, the courts-martial proceedings will look just a bit deeper.
 
Delmar said:
Code:
I don't know if the UCMJ has a charge equivalent to manslaughter

Ought to be pretty satisfying to some like Sigma-man, who already tried and convicted the man based on a few minutes of tape. Hopefully, the courts-martial proceedings will look just a bit deeper.

satisfying to me woould be the tape didnt air and the marine went about his job. good people have bad days and we are all capable of mistakes.

the marine made a mistake
and the reporter made a mistake
period.
 
That's how the Law of Land Warfare works.

Let us assume that the terrorist that was killed qualified for protected status(something that is still open to debate.) If your side abuses the protected status, you lose it. You can not wave a white flag and shoot me when I come out to accept your surrender and then complain when the next time you wave a white flag, I keep shooting. THAT is how the Law of Land Warfare works.
 
reply to above

U.S. ENEMY PRISONER OF WAR (EPW) AND CIVILIAN INTERNEE (CI) OPERATIONS INSTRUCTIONS

Basic U.S. policy underlying the treatment accorded EPW and all other enemy personnel captured, interned, or otherwise held in U.S. Army custody during the course of a conflict requires and directs that all such personnel be accorded humanitarian care and treatment from the moment of custody until final release or repatriation. The observance of this policy is fully and equally binding upon U.S. personnel, whether capturing troops, custodial personnel, or in whatever other capacity they may be serving. This policy is equally applicable for the protection of all detained or interned personnel, whether their status is that of prisoner of war, civilian internee, or any other category. It is applicable whether they are known to have, or are suspected of having, committed serious offenses which could be characterized as a war crime. The punishment of such persons is administered by due process of law and under the legally constituted authority. The administration of inhumane treatment, even if committed under stress of combat and with deep provocation, is a serious and punishable violation under national law, international law, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Violations of this policy, and the laws and regulations may result in an individual being prosecuted as a war criminal. Anyone observing a violation of law, or suspecting one has happened, has a positive legal obligation to report it to appropriate authorities. Failure to do so is a violation in itself
BELOW IS AN EXAMPLE OF ABOVE NOT BEING FOLLOWED
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm
 
I voted "not enough info," although my bias sides with the marine. I hope with all my heart that he comes out of this with his career, reputation and life intact.

However, it is quite disheartening to see all the posts that essentially say that shooting unarmed and wounded prisoners is always OK or even a good thing. Thank God that the battle-tested veterans in charge of our field operations don't take the same postition -- they understand what damage that such a hypothetical loose cannon would do to discipline and unit cohesion.

But I guess it's easy to sit at your computer and thump your chest about "Kill them All, Whenever and However" when you don't have to worry about how such lack of discipline could lead to the unnecessary deaths of men under your command, not to mention hurting your mission. :barf:

That said, it's equally easy and wrong to attack this marine without all the facts :barf:
 
sigmaman:

That video in the link you keep posting is edited to make it seem like the Marines in it just decided to shoot a random Iraqi. What the edited video doesn't tell you is that just before they shot him he raised up his AK and pointed it (which you can see laying on the ground beside him) at the Marines. You raise your weapon at Marines in a threatening manner and you get shot and killed. It's very simple.

Here's the full transcript. Here's a piece of it, including the part that is in the video:

U.S. Marines, Sergeant Riddle's team, searching an industrial area near Baghdad. Along the road they encounter Iraqis who point their AK-47s at the Marines.

RIDDLE: One of my guys got up on his hood and took the first guy out, shot him right in the heart. And he dropped instantly.


CROWLEY: Wounded, another Iraqi writhes on the ground next to his gun. The Marines kill him -- then cheer.

RIDDLE: Like, man, you guys are dead now, you know. But it was a good feeling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah!

CROWLEY: When the battle is over and you are still standing, the adrenalin rush is huge.

RIDDLE: I mean, afterwards you're like, hell, yeah, that was awesome. Let's do it again.

See the part I put in bold? Yeah, that's the part they edited out of the little video clip to make the Marines look like cold blooded murderers so people like you would fall for it and bleat about how awful they are. Anything else I'd like to say to you is not High Road material. :fire:
 
Fog of War
War IS Hell
They are there. I am not.

Enemy Combatant, Insurgent, Terrorist, Freedom Fighter... whatever term you want to use from/for your particular point of view (either side) I am in no position to judge anyone over there.

Everyone was doing their job. From the camera crew to the Marine in question to the man defending and dying for his homeland.

I wish it all weren't happening... but it is. I hope that all of our guys and gals come home safe, relatively sane and to a warm welcome. I hope that whatever Courts Martial findings are found determine that this Marine was doing his job under extreme circumstances with an eye to proper military conduct.

It's cold, it's cruel. It's true. Better Him than Me.

My prayers are with them ALL. The eyes of the world are upon them and we may be our harshest critics as our ideals might very well be impossible to live up to at all times, tho' God knows we try. Our manner of fighting fair (if that's a realistic possibility with our technology vs. their fanaticism), by rules of conduct ignored by the other side, with camera crew in tow, (video subject to select editing by some news producer somewhere safe and cozy), certainly makes it more difficult to believe my lying eyes or my lying heart.

What and Who is right? Who and What is wrong? We've covered both sides in this thread and can never reach the exact right answer. We were not there that day. That week.

But I could be wrong.
 
The CNN tape was obviously edited so nothing can be made of it.

The video of the Fallujah shooting was more disturbing. My knee jerk reaction is to support the troops because they're the ones there, on the ground etc. That said, the video is not pretty. From my poor German I understood the commentator to say that when they found the guy one marine said, this one's still moving. The other one shot him and said "he isnt anymore." I would be calling for an investigation. But I am certainly not ready to condemn the guy. The Army has every incentive to convict him but I am reasonably confident in their ability to sort this out themselves.
 
The marines are being too caring and respectful of the mosque:

Here is what they should now do instead to avoid this problem in the future: call in an airstrike, or have a tank level the place. Then there will be no potential for this probelm to develop again. Not allow reporters to tag along and film the war as it happens.

The folks who are crying over this are just like the folks who would rather see a 767 full of passengers shot down by an F-15, rather than allow the pilots to carry a gun, because the gun is too scarry.

The marines are not responsible for the terrorists safety, only the safety of their fellow marines. The fact that there were other wounded in the room and the marine did not shoot them proves he was using a safe and justifiable level of force in the situation.
 
Why do we keep refering to these guys as prisoners?? The clip of the insurgent outside the building on the ground is from what I see clearly a clean shoot. As to an earlier post

if it was a US soldier I would not consider it murder, it would be one of the most unfortunate aspects of war but none the less a result of US forces acting in the defense of their country and making the ultimate sacrifice. We kit up and depart whatever base we may be at knowing that we may lose our lives as a result of the profession we chose. Why on earth would I let that guy on the ground get behind cover only to have him shooting at me again a few days or weeks later. The other video clip floating around is a bit more disturbing. Not enough about that one to say either way. I hope the Marine was doing the right thing, but that's what the investigation will determine.
 
Why do we keep refering to these guys as prisoners?? The clip of the insurgent outside the building on the ground is from what I see clearly a clean shoot. As to an earlier post

if it was a US soldier I would not consider it murder, it would be one of the most unfortunate aspects of war but none the less a result of US forces acting in the defense of their country and making the ultimate sacrifice. We kit up and depart whatever base we may be at knowing that we may lose our lives as a result of the profession we chose. Why on earth would I let that guy on the ground get behind cover only to have him shooting at me again a few days or weeks later. The other video clip floating around is a bit more disturbing. Not enough about that one to say either way. I hope the Marine was doing the right thing, but that's what the investigation will determine.

THANK YOU. I was just going to make a post very similar to this. In reference to:

However, it is quite disheartening to see all the posts that essentially say that shooting unarmed and wounded prisoners is always OK or even a good thing.

Why is it so hard to understand that this terrorist was NOT an prisoner. He was in an unsecured area of a combat zone and was STILL an enemy combatant. It is common practice for men in his condition to suicide bomb and kill marines and it would not have taken much for the same to happen with him.
 
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