Markmanship training----Reduced targets?

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itgoesboom

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I had asked in a previous thread about picking up a rifle for learning "real" marksmanship, meaning learning to shoot with iron sights, away from the bench.

Reason for that is that I am seriously leaning towards joining the Army, and want to score as high as possible on the BRM test as possible. Just something I really want to do.

So, I listened to recommendations, and went out got an AR-15 rifle, A2 upper, 20" barrel, etc etc.

I have access to a shooting range, but our ranges are setup as seperate ranges, meaning the 50/100 yard range is a short drive away from the 200/300 yard range. 600 yard range is the 200/300 range, on select days. You can only really have a target set at one distance. So no target transitions.

So, I have looked around and found some reduced range targets, that simulate the targets that the US Army uses during qualification. Atleast roughly. Targets are set at 50 yards, and simulate 200, 300, 350, 400 and 450 yards. I know that the Army doesn't train out that far, but thats the sizing that the targets are.

Anyways, the question becomes, is this a valid way of working on markmanship skills? Shooting a reduced size target at 50 yards?

Also, are there any drills that I can use to help my marksmanship, and learn? I am already doing dry fire almost everynight after my workouts, working on prone and kneeling positions.

Thanks in advance.

I.G.B.
 
youd be much better off to NOT attempt to teach yourself how to shoot. let them do that. familiarize yourself with army spec maintance and disasembly of the rifle.

the army has been teaching people to shoot for over 200 years, they may not train you to shoot like a pro. but they will train you to shot how they want you to. its easier to mold you from blank clay than to break your old bad habbits
 
The reduced range paper targets are used in the Army, but not at basic. The only paper targets we used at basic were the zeroing targets. Then it was pop-up sillhouettes at various ranges, different shooting positions, shooting from cover, moving to shooting positions, and so forth.

The only times we used the paper targets was when we needed to get a bunch of people qualified in a hurry, and it was quicker to get them through a paper target relay than through the pop-up range -- especially in the winter. Just use the zeroing range, staple a different target up, shoot the relay.

I learned to shoot as a child. I got obsessive about it as a young adult, and joined the Army in my mid-twenties. I didn't so much have to unlearn bad habits, as learn how to shoot the Army's rifle, since I'd never shot an AR before. Worked out well for me. Make sure that what you are practicing is correct, and you'll be fine. All of the best, most consistent shots in my Basic and in my later units were those who learned on their own and shot recreationally anyway, because they are used to doing it.
 
Everytime I've seen this questioned ask on an Internet forum, a response is always, "Let the (Marines/Army/Navy/Air Force) teach you how to shoot."

But I've never subscribed to that ideology. The first time I saw that response to this specific issue, I thought about it for awhile. Is it better to have no shooting experience before going to basic training? After a lot of thought, I came with my own personally feeling of no, it won't hurt you to practice shooting before you go to boot camp.

Shooting is like any other sporting discipline. The more your practice, the better you get.

What bad habits could you develop as a shooter that will hinder your ability to learn from the instructors at basic training? I don't know. I haven't read of any specific examples of what a firing instructor in basic has come across where they found a recruit that had a bad shooting habit that they had to force him to unlearn.
 
Hoppy590 said:
youd be much better off to NOT attempt to teach yourself how to shoot. let them do that. familiarize yourself with army spec maintance and disasembly of the rifle.

the army has been teaching people to shoot for over 200 years, they may not train you to shoot like a pro. but they will train you to shot how they want you to. its easier to mold you from blank clay than to break your old bad habbits
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Hoppy,

I already know how to shoot. I already shoot hundreds of rounds a month. On the flip side, I already have some bad habits that need to be broken prior to joining.

Plus there is still a chance I won't join. Either way, I want to improve my marksmanship.

So the question is not whether I should be shooting, but whether or not shooting reduced targets will help markmanship.

So, once again, should I shoot the reduced targets at a shorter range, and supplement that with shooting at 200/300 yards occasionally, or should I stick to shooting at the longer ranges for practice exclusively?

I.G.B.
 
So, once again, should I shoot the reduced targets at a shorter range, and supplement that with shooting at 200/300 yards occasionally, or should I stick to shooting at the longer ranges for practice exclusively?
Click to expand...

I shoot service rifle high power, which is official shot at 200, 300, and 600 yards. My club's range only goes out to 200 meters, and the 200m line is at a slight upward angle. So I tend to do most of my standing practice at 200 meters (practicing at 200 meters doens't hurt me for 200 yards actual). The uphill slope is hard to shoot at while in sitting, so I use the SR-1 (200 yard reduced for 100 yards) target at 100 yards to practice sitting. I don't practice prone much for service rifle, but I usually use a SR-21 (300 yard reduced for 100) for rapid prone practice.

Shooting on reduced is worthwhile for practicing position and sight picture (and trigger pull). But to master wind, you need to shoot at actual distance when you can.
 
The problem with shooting reduced targets is that there is not as much drop and wind-drift.
 
The reduced range paper targets are used in the Army, but not at basic. The only paper targets we used at basic were the zeroing targets. Then it was pop-up sillhouettes at various ranges, different shooting positions, shooting from cover, moving to shooting positions, and so forth.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I wan't real clear about that.

The reduced targets are to simulate, at 50 yards, the size of the standard Army qualification target at the distances (and beyond) that the army uses for qualification.

So for an Army qualification target at 300 yards, there is a (roughly) equivalent sized target that I have found to be used at 50 yards.

I.G.B.
 
Shoot all you want at any distance you want. It's all good. You are way ahead of most boots already. Just watch for bad safety habits. Don't worry, you will do fine!

AR15(DCM).GIF
 
ocabj: Shooting on reduced is worthwhile for practicing position and sight picture (and trigger pull). But to master wind, you need to shoot at actual distance when you can.
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Good avice. I shot NRA National match coarse (same coarse as ocabj, but with a bolt gun instead of service rifle for many years. While our range was a full 600 yard range, to practice full range required a pit crew, making it impractical. I practiced once a week, using the 100 yard reduced targets, as I could shoot on the frame and spot my shots w/spotting scope. ocabj has pointed out the only disadvantage to reduced target practice above.

One more suggestion, spend most of your practice time working on offhand and sitting positions. Prone is much simpler to master and many more points are to be gained on the less stable positions. You have already discovered a most valuable tool in becoming a better marksman, and that is regular dry fire sessions. Dry firing and calling your "shots" will point out your errors much better than live fire alone. Another pointer, do not practice beyond your physical ability. In other words, once you tire, stop and do another position or come back tomorrow. Don't continue and practice bad habbits.

Regards,
hps
 
Taking proficiency in shooting at short range (say, 25 meters) as writ, there are 3 basic factors to long distance shooting:

1) "shrinkage" of the apparent size of the target
2) The ballistic arc of the trajectory, which is compensated for by hold over/sight adjustment.
3) The disruption of the bullet's path by the wind. The effect of the wind is cumulative over the path of the bullet, such that the longer distance the shot, the more pronounced it is.


Reduced targets simulates the first fact, that of the shrinkage of the apparent size of the target.

That being said, if you study ballistics and windage charts, you'll find that the arc of the trajectory has the most profound impact on the bullet's travel, and the effect of wind is comparatively minor. That doesn't mean the wind can be ignored long distance, it just means the effect is less than that of the arc.


Study, memorize and periodically review the charts for your selected rounds, as well as "kentucky windage" methods such as the clock method.

Become conversant in what the implications of those charts are. Understand the relationship between MOA, inches at range, and the settings of your sights, such that you can manipulate that relationship to achieve a desired result.
 
I say go ahead and practice at short range. Most of the guys that shoot well on reduced targets figure out how the wind works pretty easily. The ones that shoot poorly at 600yds generally shoot poorly at 100yds. I've met very few short range masters.

Ty
 
Everytime I've seen this questioned ask on an Internet forum, a response is always, "Let the (Marines/Army/Navy/Air Force) teach you how to shoot."

But I've never subscribed to that ideology.
Click to expand...


not only do we not subscribe to that ideology, neither does the military. That's why the Civilian Marksmanship Program exists: to teach people how to shoot BEFORE they get into the army because so many of them suck at it.
 
Unless you go to sniper school your Army training will be designed for you to meet minimal standards prior to leaving basic training.
 
Unless you go to sniper school your Army training will be designed for you to meet minimal standards prior to leaving basic training.
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Which is exactly why I want to do prep work before hand. Actually, that's two reasons.

First, because I know that their goal is just for me to qualify, but I want to do better than 'just qualify'.

Second, because I really would like to get an opportunity to go to sniper school, or atleast be a designated marksman.

Ofcourse, part of it is just my personality. I know that basic is going to kick my butt, and throw me out of my comfort zone, so I am trying to learn everything I can prior to shipping out. I have a whole checklist to go through, prior to enlisting, and marksmanship skills and physical training is only the beginning.

Thanks again for all the help everyone.

I.G.B.
 
The reduced targets were used to train most soldiers in WW2 how to initially shoot and get the basics down, usually with a .22 trainer before going to a centrefire rifle. I can't see it hurting.
 
I don't think the reduced size targets are going to hurt you any.

as far as training in advance, seems to me most people are leaving out the 3rd option. To avoid learning mistakes when you train yourself, and to train before the military gets ahold of you, seek outside training from a professional. check the CMP website find a club near you. check the NRA page for rifle training, call up the instructor and tell him what you are doing and see if his course is more basic than that or more aimed a hunters or whatnot. He probably can point you in the right direction. If you have the money, go to thunder ranch or some similar place
 
I second the Motion on going to an Appleseed Shoot!

You will learn the basics of putting lead on target out to 500+ yards. While they do most of their shooting at reduced targets, they also will give you the skill/information for "doping" for wind and elevation corrections. You will take solid skills from the shoot, the will apply to any rifle platform and will be useful to you regardless what you shoot.

From your post, I would assume you are under 21, thus you will shoot free at an Appleseed, so you will only be out our time, some ammo, in exchange for some solid training.

Good luck in your future endevors!
 
The better off you are at shooting a rifle before you join the Army will make you far better off while you are in the Army. I seen soldiers never exposed to shooting always recycle to the firing line. It is a mindset. Get comfortable shooting. Get confident at shooting. The Army doesn't teach confidence with a weapon. Three shot zero at the 25 meter range and you are off to qualification. Most of the time you qualify after basic training you are shooting at miniature targets and if you shoot at known distance targets consider yourself lucky. IMO after they teach you the basics you are better off learning advanced on your own. Been there and done that.
 
What bad habits could you develop as a shooter
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No serious bad habits, so go ahead and practice. It can't hurt.

When I went through basic, we had paper targets at the range, with bullseyes. This was long ago. Also when I went through, everybody passed, at least as "Marksman". I have no idea how I passed, as the M14 spat oil all over my glasses, so I had to shoot without glasses. There were holes in my target, but I have no idea how they got there :) At that time, the Army was going through a big build-up in forces, so they were drafting and training like crazy.

Now, I think they have pop-up silhouettes, and your time to acquire and shoot is very limited. That's a different skill than shooting at paper. So I'm not sure how to prepare for that just by shooting paper. Maybe clay-type shooting.

The big thing shooting will do is to help eliminate flinch, as you get used to the noise and recoil.
 
The main thing is that you're familiarizing yourself with an AR-15 pattern rifle. Very different animal from the Mauser rifles I was accustomed to shooting before enlisting. Don't worry about it too much. You'll get a chance to qualify as something better later if you don't get it the first time.
 
Unless things have drastically changed anyone that knows one end of a rifle from another can shoot expert in the US Army basic training.
 
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