Marlin 1894 Conversion to .45 Auto Rim

[BlindJustice]

I have a S & W 625 5 inch Bbl Len. in .45 ACP/ Auto RIm

Project is to have a Marlin 1894 converted to the .45 Auto
Rim cartridge - Spur's Riflesmithing does conversions from .45
Colt to .45 Cowboy Special as well as .45 Scholfiled. The gunsmith
I have been in email contact with said that several of
his customers with conversions use .45 ACP dies with .452
sized bullets with excellent accuracy. The headspace for the
thicker than usual AR rim will need to be altered as well as
reposition of the extractor. I will have the barrel
shortened to 16.5 inches crowned and recessed since the AR
isn't going to lose much velocity and want the handling of a
"Trapper" length carbine. It should still carry 8 or 9 rounds of
the shorter AR cartridges in the tubular mag.

I just want a handy carbine Plinking/Target Defense
Survival not competition in a cartridge I already have a
bunch of and No, I don't plan on ever getting 230 gr FMJ with the
hard round nose or any other pointed bullet - just a BAD IDEA that... the AR ammo
I have includes

.45 AR 200 gr. SWC* @ 1,025 FPS ( 5 inch Bbl.)
* Hardcast Leadhead bullet .452 w/Starline brass
.45 AR 225 gr Barnes X JHP @ 940 FPS ( 5 inch Bbl )
I'll also get some 225 gr. TCGC Leadhead offers loaded
to the same velocity as the spendy Barnes X for practice
and general use.

The trigger job recommended will be halfway between stock
and the super smooth Cowboy action that they do and shorter
carrier witll 1.5 inches less - a Short Stroker

Spur's is backed up so it looks like I may get it by Xmas

Any thoughts about this project or any thing I or the gunsmith
may have not thought of yet?

 

[Shear_stress]

A dumb question for you, based on the fact that I don't know much about how the 1894 action works: Is a rimmed cartridge necessary? Is there a reason you couldn't use 45 ACP? Just curious.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I would just convert the Revolver to shoot 45LC or trade it in on one that will and sell all the auto rim ammo.

You're gonna spend enough cash on the conversion of your carbine to be able to buy another revolver.

Now reaming a single shot for the thicker rim of the autorim would make much more sense from an economic point of view

 

[ArmedBear]

First off, an 1894 in .45LC is available new only from Big 5 Sporting Goods with a hardwood stock, and in the pricey and heavier Cowboy version. No plain ol' 1894. A used one will probably not be a bargain, either. Do you already have one? Or do you plan to rebarrel it anyway?

Second, .45LC in a rifle is a VERY capable cartridge with hot handloads, Buffalo Bore ammo, etc. A .45ACP is not. You're giving up a LOT of performance, even if everything works perfectly.

Third, I don't know how the action will like a stubby little cartridge like that. It might not feed reliably.

Fourth, how much does this cost?

 

[BlindJustice]

There are no dumb questions - in another life I was a Systems Analyst/Programmer and interviewing users as to what they really wanted was the key to satisfying their needs.

Let me slip into tweed jacket with suede elbow patches and
do the History Prof. bit

The nominal length of the .45 COlt is 1.29 inches
The case length of the .45 AR is .898 inch which is
identical to a .45 ACP - The S & W 1917 revolver
used in WWI ( because Colt wasn' t making as many
1911s as they could for the Doughboys in the trenches )
S & W came up with the half-moon clip - the clip holds the
rimless case for headspace since they didn't counter bore
the cylinders in the early .45 ACP revolvers. So Half-Moon
clips had to be used.

After the war to end all wars in 192Remington-Peters
came up with the .45 Auto Rim with the rim so that the
half-moon clips didn't have to be used for all the surplus
M1917s on the market the vets brought home.

Half-moon clips carry 3 rounds each. Doughboys were
issued 24 rounds of .45 ACP already loaded in the
Half-moon clips, one immediate reload for the revolver and
on their bandolier they had three pockets to put the
other 3 pair of reloads.

In the 1970s somebody invented the 'Full-Moon' Clip
Yep, you guessed it Full-Moons carry 6 rounds and are the
fastest revolver speedload around. SKeeter Skelton knew
a couple of fellow LEOs back in the 1950s who had cut
down to 4 inch Bbl S&W M1917s they kept loaded with
.45 AR with heavy SWC with halfmoon clips withGov't ball
ammo for reloads for gunfights in the wild border town of
El Paso.

My S & W 625 in .45 ACP / .45 AR - the ACP brass is saved
for reloading for my 1911. So I don't think the
.45 Colt would serve me well in that regard and the
AR takes less powder to reload - it's more efficient than
the .45 Colt which started as a black powder cartridge.

The 625 can handle the heavier loads in AR as well as
ACP +P - A 1911 might nieed a stronger recoil spring for that
stuff

Taking off the tweed coat, hey Arkansas DUde I've got about
560 rounds of AR loaded ammo is kinda hard to Ream eh?

Y.45MV

 

[hqmhqm]

Based on the 1894 .357 magnum I had, it did not feed
.38 special very reliably, compared to .357. I would think you would be getting a lot of jams with a short cartridge.

Get a .44 Magnum Winchester lever action if you want something more like a shotgun slug.

 

[BlindJustice]

There are no dumb questions - in another life I was a Systems Analyst/Programmer and interviewing users as to what they really wanted was the key to satisfying their needs.

Let me slip into tweed jacket with suede elbow patches and
do the History Prof. bit

The nominal length of the .45 COlt is 1.29 inches
The case length of the .45 AR is .898 inch which is
identical to a .45 ACP - The S & W 1917 revolver
used in WWI ( because Colt wasn' t making as many
1911s as they could for the Doughboys in the trenches )
S & W came up with the half-moon clip - the clip holds the
rimless case for headspace since they didn't counter bore
the cylinders in the early .45 ACP revolvers. So Half-Moon
clips had to be used.

After the war to end all wars in 192Remington-Peters
came up with the .45 Auto Rim with the rim so that the
half-moon clips didn't have to be used for all the surplus
M1917s on the market the vets brought home.

Half-moon clips carry 3 rounds each. Doughboys were
issued 24 rounds of .45 ACP already loaded in the
Half-moon clips, one immediate reload for the revolver and
on their bandolier they had three pockets to put the
other 3 pair of reloads.

In the 1970s somebody invented the 'Full-Moon' Clip
Yep, you guessed it Full-Moons carry 6 rounds and are the
fastest revolver speedload around. SKeeter Skelton knew
a couple of fellow LEOs back in the 1950s who had cut
down to 4 inch Bbl S&W M1917s they kept loaded with
.45 AR with heavy SWC with halfmoon clips withGov't ball
ammo for reloads for gunfights in the wild border town of
El Paso.

My S & W 625 in .45 ACP / .45 AR - the ACP brass is saved
for reloading for my 1911. So I don't think the
.45 Colt would serve me well in that regard and the
AR takes less powder to reload - it's more efficient than
the .45 Colt which started as a black powder cartridge.

The 625 can handle the heavier loads in AR as well as
ACP +P - A 1911 might nieed a stronger recoil spring for that
stuff

Taking off the tweed coat, hey Arkansas DUde I've got about
560 rounds of AR loaded ammo is kinda hard to Ream eh?

Y.45MV

 

[BlindJustice]

Armed Bear has a few queries

I've found three different dealers on the net
with Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt Cowboy ( which has
deeper rifling than the micro groove of the regular
Marlin 1894 btw ) for $ 610-$ 630

The regular conversion to .45 Cowboy Special is
$ 295 - the price estimate to .45 AR COnv. is $ 375
which includes a smoothing of the lever action and the
stroke is 1.5 inches less in addition to being able to
carry more rounds than the longer .45 Colt. The gun
can be converted back to .45 Colt if the stock
carrier and extractor are replaced.

And I've come into a bit of money unexpectely and it's my
green eh? Heck it's cheaper than the 13 lb Auto Ordnance
1927A1 Semi-Auto. by several hundred dollars.

I am just looking for a 50 yard camp gun for Cookie the Cook
anyway...

 

[Shear_stress]

Howdy Mr. Justice.

I'm aware of the history of the 45 AR cartridge and am really just curious if you can coax the more commonly found ACP into a lever gun (assuming a flat-nosed bullet profile).

 

[R.W.Dale]

AR takes less powder to reload - it's more efficient than
the .45 Colt which started as a black powder cartridge.

LOL are you that tight! You get something like 900 loads from a Can of unique at 8grs a pop.

I've got about
560 rounds of AR loaded ammo is kinda hard to Ream eh?

You're wanting to build a custom rifle pretty much from scratch cause you have 11 boxes of ammo?

 

[BlindJustice]

.45 ACP is for my Revolver and M1911 It won't work in the
1894 since it's chambered for the longer .45 Colt and does
not have the Rim of the AR it would get in too deep to be hit
by the firing pin.

My carry load for the 625 in .45 AR is:

225 grain Barnes-X* JHP at 940 FPS
* It's solid copper and will penetrate
ballistic gell a couple of inches past the 12 inch
FBI requirement which is good nuff fer me.

 

[Shear_stress]

.45 ACP is for my Revolver and M1911 It won't work in the
1894 since it's chambered for the longer .45 Colt and does
not have the Rim of the AR it would get in too deep to be hit
by the firing pin.

I guess I assumed you were rebarreling the gun instead of just counterboring the chamber to accept the thick AR rim. Then again, if you are going to change the chamber dimensions, how would you run 45 Colt in the gun after returning to the original extractor and carrier?

 

[BlindJustice]

How to convert back to LC - dunnoh but the gunsmith said
it is possible... perhaps the firing pin will need to be a tiny bit longer?

He did ask for some AR virgin bras for some measurements getting it
right - so I will get some Starline brass - save the rest for my next
ammo order - Leadhead makes hardcaxsst bullets and the 225 gr TC
wadcutter with gas check has a nice flat point for the tubular magazine
of the 1894 I'll have it loaded to the same velocity as the Barnes X
Bidness load for the same POA.

I've lurked some Marlin 1894 forums and they are sensittive to OAL cartridge
length

oh, another reason besides no rim on the ACP since the ACP seats in the chamber on the case mouth it gets a lighter crimp the taper crimp whereas
the AR spaces on the rim and gets a nice heavy roll crimp and the
bullets won't get shoved into their case in the 1894
tubular magazine.

heck I'm shopping for the older Model 25 1955 Target with a 6.5 inch Bbl.
that I sold mumble years ago to replace it.

 

[ArmedBear]

The regular 1894 has the same rifling as the Cowboy, 6 groove Ballard. It hasn't always, but it does now and it has for some time. For your purposes, I think the Cowboy is extra money down the toilet.

The .45LC can be loaded up like a super-hot .44 Magnum, meaning that, in the Marlin, it's in the ballpark of a .45-70 Remington factory 300 grain load.

You gain a lot from the rifle-length barrel over pistol ballistics. Not so with the AR. It'll be a long pistol, nothing more. Your $1000 custom gun will carry more rounds...of ammo that's good for plinking, or just duplicates what your revolver will already do for you, while being a lot easier to lug.

But hey, if you think it sounds like fun, go for it. People have done stranger things.

 

[BlindJustice]

I'll bring the project thread up again when I get back
from the range with some chrono results.

Thanks All

 

[VA27]

Years ago one of the gun rags had an article by a guy who converted a Marlin to 45ACP. He got it to work, but said he'd never do another!

Pay no attention to the naysayers who have piped up so far, it's your money and your gun and you found a guy to do it.

I think it's a fine idea, the Auto Rim conversion. I'd like a Uberti Henry in 45 Auto Rim. I think that would be a fun gun to shoot.

With the build on a Marlin you could even do a little 'experimental' reloading with 300+gr bullets.

I for one would be interested in how it all turns out.

Good luck with your quest!

 

[grendelbane]

Winchester once produced the model 92 in .45 ACP. I have a Rossi M92 in .45 Colt, and I understand the attraction this idea presents. (Though I would prefer the ACP chambering.

I am going to assume that hardball did not cause any problems in the tubular magazine, as that is pretty much all that would have been available at that time. Recoil would be very mild with .45 ACP or AR.

The .45 Colt will always be able to outperform its shorter brothers, in a modern gun. .45 Super and .460 Rowland pressure loads would make up for a lot of this deficiency, though. .45 Colt in a long barrel, loaded to higher pressures can produce some amazing ballistics.

It is an interesting project, good luck.

 

[BlindJustice]

To VA27

I think the AR would be limited to 250 gr. and anything moving towards the 300 gr weight would take away from case capacity for powder;

Grendelbane

I wouldn't be comfy with FMJ RN - either cast flat nose or JHP with the
Hollow point being wide enough to have no contact with the primer of the round ahead of it. The carry round I have for AR is the Barnes X all copper
JHP 225 gr. SInce it is all copper it is less dense than a copper
jacketed bullet thus longer since it also has a wide Hollow point cavity - It is almost as wide as some 200 gr CCI Lawman JHP aka Flying Ashtray which are now unobtanium OUt of PRoduction - I have 50 rounds of I am saving for
a special occaision TMSAISTI I don't like the profile of the Win SXT 230 gr. JHP - Very pointed and narrow HP Cavity so it's reserved for the S&W Revolver.

I've got 25 or so full moon clips and about 700 rounds of various ACP
and 500 rds of 200 gr. SWC and 60 rounds of the 225 gr. Barnes X in AR so
there is no way I'm selling my Revolver and getting a .45 Colt. Besides I kinda like the newer S & W 25 w/3 inch Bbl.

I'll chronograph stuff in the1911, and the 625 as well as the Marlin and report next spring as a Work In Progress.