Marlin 444 rebarrel to 45-70

[harrygrey382]

Just wondering if it's possible to rebarrel a 444 Marlin LA to 45-70? Will a 45-70 feed/cycle/eject in a 444? Are the recievers/bolts/ejectors the same?

It may not be sensible but is it possible?

 

[CraigC]

Possible, yes. Sensible, absolutely not. Figure on at least $500 for a new barrel, probably more like $750. To be honest, I wouldn't fool with it and NOT put a premium grade barrel on it. Plus whatever it would take to get it to function. In the end, you're better off buying a new rifle. However, I must ask, what is it exactly that you're trying to accomplish?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The Marlin 1895 in .45-70 has a noticeably enlarged ejection port to accommodate the .45-70 case and rim.

The Marlin 444 in 444 Magnum has a narrower ejection port.

 

[harrygrey382]

well the problem is, here in the UK, 45-70 Marlins are very very rare. I want one like anything, and know where an as new 444 is for a good price. I was thinking of using it for a while, then if the urge got too strong would rebarrel it to 45-70. Yes I may find 444 satisfies me, but I must have at least the potential for 45-70!

If I enlarged the ejection port, would 45-50 cases then extract? What about the bolt and other moving parts? What about the thread diameters?

 

[rcmodel]

I believe you will also find the bolt face, extractor, and cartridge lifter are different.
Also possibly the hole in the receiver for the magazine tube, and the cartridge cut-off.

The .444 case is basically a lengthened .44 Magnum pistol round.
The 45-70 is bigger in every case measurement that matters.

Like the others said.
It would save you a bunch of money, and a lot of hair-pulling to just sell the .444 and buy a 45-70.

rc

 

[harrygrey382]

ok I think I'll bow to shear logic and keep waiting! Thanks guys

 

[natman]

I strongly suspect that a 444 would be every bit as good as a 45-70 for any game you're likely to find in the UK.

Believe me, I understand the itch to get a particular chambering, but for practical purposes I'd take the bird in hand and go shooting.

 

[PapaG]

The biggest problem with the 444 is the rate of twist of the rifling...mine is a one in 38" twist, for bullets in the 240 grain range. If you go to a bullet of decent weight, say 300 grains or more, stability gets to be a problem. Second problem, at least for mine, is the microgroove rifling which tends to be a problem with anything cast and sent out at much over 1500 fps....so, you might as well be using the original 44 maggie.
I just got a couple boxes of Leverolutions, 265 grainers, and the box says "1 in 20 or faster"...guess I'll try them anyway.
I kind of wish it was a 45-70.

 

[CraigC]

The 1-38" twist should be fine for anything up to 300gr. The .44's shoot them accurately and the .444 adds velocity which alleviates the problem.

However, if the rifle in question is a later model 1-20" twist with Ballard rifling, you don't need a .45-70. For it will stabilize bullets up to and including Beartooth's monster 405gr and that bullet can be pushed to 2150fps. Which is quite a bit faster than a .45/70 at comparable sectional density (450gr). With medium game appropriate bullets in the 240-270gr range, the .444 is much flatter shooting. The pisser is, as it has always been, the stupidly slow 1-38" twist Microgroove barrels of the earlier guns. I had to pass on a really nice pre-safety straight stock model recently for this reason.

 

[Abel]

I was thinking of using it for a while, then if the urge got too strong would rebarrel it to 45-70.

The 444 is fine for 95% of the same applications that a 45-70 would be good for.

 

[harrygrey382]

well it is a recent one. I'm actually moving to australia and was wanting to take one as prices are way inflated on them there. So throw in buffalo, camels and donkeys. Is 444 still ok?

Tp be honest I did kind of know 444 was all I need. It's just the irrational want factor of 45-70. Every time I've read about someone choosing between the two everyone's said just get the one true big bore lever - 45-70. But you guys are all saying 444 is enough, it's making me think twice...

If I can't get a solid lead on a guide gun in the next couple of days I may well go the 444!

 

[LeonCarr]

The .444 with the right bullet (A good 300-320 grain hardcast with a nice flat nose/meplat that will feed through the action and be stabilized by your rifling twist) will take anything on the planet and should work nicely on your down under buffalo.

I like the .45-70 also, but the .444 works just as well and shoots a little bit flatter IME.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Abel]

So throw in buffalo, camels and donkeys. Is 444 still ok?

Not with the 240 grain bullets. But with Hornady Interlock 265 grains, its very feasible. But, on a potentially dangerous animal like the Asiatic Water Buffalo, I'd go bigger than the 444 with 265 grain bullets myself. Older Marlin 444's have a 1 in 38" twist rate that typically does not stabilize the largest, above 270 grain, bullets. Good luck.

http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-interlock-FP-Superformance

 

[x_wrench]

sell off something to put with the money you already have, and buy the 45-70! i lived half my life trying to make lesser things do more. it was a long, expensive road, and i would have been far better off buying what i wanted in the first place. but i did not have the patience to wait. with guns, it is really tough to make a rifle (or pistol for that matter) do more than it was intended to do. and most times, dangerous as well. to be honest, it may be better off waiting until you move to Australia to buy a rifle anyway. have you checked on the legal aspect of bringing a firearm with you? have you thought about shipping the firearm? airlines are notorious for damaging firearm cases, and loosing luggage. the worse case scenario is you arrive in Australia, and your firearm arrives in an entirely different country! then it could be a nightmare trying to get it back.

 

[x_wrench]

and, by the way, i went thru the whole 444 vs. 45-70 thing prior to buying my marlin 45-70 guide gun. buy the 45-70, and never look back. you can always download the 45-70 (or buy loads for early low pressure rifles), but like i said earlier, it is tough to go up in powder. i have loaded my marlin as far as i would ever want to go. and to be honest, it handles those hot loads better than i do. the next thing you will need to decide on is the barrel length. short, medium, or l o n g as in cowboy rifle. it is to bad they do not make one with a quick detach barrel, because i would like both the short and long barrel version. but i can not afford two of them.

 

[rori]

This is not a dress rehersal!!Get what you want not second best. The 45/70 is a far better caliber and can be down loaded easily to 444 or less balistics. The opposit is not true. Get what you want, enjoy your life, and don't look back. Frank

 

[CraigC]

Older Marlin 444's have a 1 in 38" twist rate that typically does not stabilize the largest, above 270 grain, bullets.

As I said, the .44's will run fine with 300's and the .444 adds some velocity. Some say it will even run with 320's.

The 45/70 is a far better caliber and can be down loaded easily to 444 or less balistics.

Did you read the thread or just quote ballistics tables???

 

[Hizzie]

You might want a boltgun in 9.3x62 or double rifle in 9.3x74R or larger for Australian Water Buffalo. 700kg-1000kg is a lot of beef to penetrate to get to vitals. Any 9.3 is usually the very minimum for dangerous game and many even think 375 H&H is on the light side. Perhaps H&H Hunter needs to drop some advice here.

 

[harrygrey382]

Ok so as usual the more i hear and ask the more i want a 45-70 over the 444. And surely a 45-70 loaded as hot as an 1895 can take will settle a buff pretty well? Not like it'll be a regular thing, i'd say mostly short range scrub hunting pigs. I'd be good to be able to ignore any scrub that gets in the way! I'm sure a 444 would do it ok but if i'm going to the hastle of getting my dream gun i might as well make it right.

Another reason is i have my hva 1640 30 06 for longer range or smaller animals, and 444 has more overlap i'm thinking. I'm selling my vgc 243 brno m98 to fund it. I may take slack for this but it doesn't do anything a downloaded 06 can't. Yep i cast and reload.

Shipping is sorted- i'm putting them in our shipping container at no extra cost. Then i have the other end sorted.

I have just found a lead on an older micro groove one. What are people's thoughts on these? I guess i don't need to shoot very heavy pills- What's the biggest the twist can handle? I probabaly want to shoot almost all cast, is it definitely worth waiting for a ballard?

 

[rcmodel]

I'd be good to be able to ignore any scrub that gets in the way!

Don't fall for the old 45-70 is a "brush gun" baloney.
It doesn't work that way.

All bullets, no matter what caliber or weight, will deflect off scrub brush if it hits them between the gun and the game.
No matter what caliber it is.

If the game is standing behind brush, you need to move and find a clear path to the target.

rc

 

[CraigC]

Didn't Ross Seyfriend dispell the old "brushbuster" myth???

 

[harrygrey382]

Ok. But that doesn't really sway me to 444...

How about these microgrooves then?

 

[Hizzie]

Ok so as usual the more i hear and ask the more i want a 45-70 over the 444. And surely a 45-70 loaded as hot as an 1895 can take will settle a buff pretty well? Not like it'll be a regular thing, i'd say mostly short range scrub hunting pigs. I'd be good to be able to ignore any scrub that gets in the way! I'm sure a 444 would do it ok but if i'm going to the hastle of getting my dream gun i might as well make it right.

Another reason is i have my hva 1640 30 06 for longer range or smaller animals, and 444 has more overlap i'm thinking. I'm selling my vgc 243 brno m98 to fund it. I may take slack for this but it doesn't do anything a downloaded 06 can't. Yep i cast and reload.

Shipping is sorted- i'm putting them in our shipping container at no extra cost. Then i have the other end sorted.

I have just found a lead on an older micro groove one. What are people's thoughts on these? I guess i don't need to shoot very heavy pills- What's the biggest the twist can handle? I probabaly want to shoot almost all cast, is it definitely worth waiting for a ballard?

Even Garrett Hammerheads are below the energy level of 9.3x62/9.3x74R. 540gr @ 1550fps = 2880ft/lbs energy. The 9.3 drives a 286gr slug at ~2360 for 3500ft/lbs of energry. The 45/70 struggles to break 3000ft/lbs.

NO bullet fired from a man portable weapon is brush busting. Numerous stories abound of twigs/vines deflecting 470NE, 500NE and 505 Gibbs rounds.

If you want the 45/70 get the 45/70. Just don't have illusions of what it is reliably capable of. IMHO it would be a dandy pig rig.

 

[harrygrey382]

yeah, point taken. If I want a real buff gun I'll go for a 458 lott or something at some point. But for now lever actions interest me. So what about these microgrooves?

 

[CraigC]

Energy is way too velocity dependent. Something you don't find a proliferation of with the big bores but what they do have going for them is weight and diameter. Looking at something more useful than energy, like TKO for instance, we see your 9.3 managing only a factor of 35, while the 540gr .45/70 you quoted makes it to 54.8. A 405gr at 2000fps makes it to 53.5 while producing a meaningless 36007ft-lbs. The 405gr .444 load I referenced above also scores a 53.5 while producing 4157ft-lbs.

Don't get me wrong, the 9.3's are great cartridges and on my short list but I wouldn't call them "better".

I hear good and bad about Microgrooves and cast bullets. The twist is 'enough' for bullets up to 320gr. IIRC, bullet hardness is critical for getting them to shoot right in those barrels. I would REALLY rather have the later model with the Ballard rifling and faster twist.