45-70 & 444 Marlin Guide Gun

[absolute0]

I'm considering purchasing a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun which to the best of my knowledge is which is offered in 45-70 and 444 Marlin only. I'm not real familiar with the 444 chambering, can anyone offer insite as to the merits of either cartridge for up close heavy duty firepower?

 

[Old Time Hunter]

Best description that I heard was that the .444 is a 3/4 size .45-70. Personally, and I have .45-70's, .444's, and a .450 Marlin, the best all around is probably the .444. It is good for anything from squirrels to elephants without having to be abused.

 

[bearmgc]

Yes the 444 is smaller than the 45-70 in guide guns. I have both, but do prefer the 444 too. I figure if you're gonna go small package, the 444 is faster to shoulder and more manuverable and compact, especially in the brush. The Hornady light mags are fine for critters including elk. But I have used the Rems in 240gr on deer with no problems. The 444 would also work great on bear over bait.

 

[rockstar.esq]

Can you shoot a .44Mag in a .444 Marlin rifle? If so how about the .44 Special?

 

[auburnman]

I don't know about close range firepower, but I can say this... At 95 yards, a .444 Marlin will flip a 260 pound whitetail head over heels ( he was facing the gun and hit the ground on his back with his antlers stuck in the ground). Hope this helps!

Auburnman

 

[sixgunner455]

Quote: Can you shoot a .44Mag in a .444 Marlin rifle? If so how about the .44 Special?

Can you, as in, will the gun fire? Probably. The case heads are the same size, both use large primers (rifle/pistol), bullets are the same diameter-- some use .44 Mag bullets in the .444.

Probably not a very good idea, though. The .444 is significantly longer than the .44 Mag, which isn't of itself that big a deal -- there are guns designed to shoot .410 shotshells and .45 Colts in the same barrels. But it can affect accuracy.

What would make me nervous about doing it is the body taper built into the .444 that isn't in the .44 Mag. The .44 Magnum has no body taper. The .444 body is between .015 and .020 wider by the case head: it tapers from .470 by the case head to .453 at the case mouth. The .44 Magnum body is .452 or .456 (depending on your reference book), so when you fire it in a .444 chamber, what will happen by the case head? The web will have to stretch out to make a seal in the chamber, if it has enough elasticity to do so. So, it will stretch and make the seal or it will fail in the attempt. I don't like either potential result, personally, because you can't predict what each lot of cases will do from different manufacturers, how hard they are, how thick the webs actually are from different manufacturers.

Here's something else to consider: How wide is the chamber where the .44 Magnum case mouth ends in it? It is .94 inch shorter than the .444 chamber, and the .444 has, as I have told you, a body taper. So it's wider there than at its mouth. Depending on how thick the case really is, and how wide the chamber really is (I'm talking about manufacturing differences), you could have case splits.

So, altogether, it doesn't sound like something I would want to be holding next to my face when it goes off.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

[JustsayMo]

A fella really needs both... That being said, I wouldn't feel underequiped with either anywhere in this hemisphere. If I HAD to pick, it would probably be the 45-70 because of the availablity, versatility and historic atributes.

I'm very tempted to buy an XLR in 444 and shorten the barrel to Outfitter (Guide Gun) length. The perfect huntin gun...

 

[GunNut]

I'm very tempted to buy an XLR in 444 and shorten the barrel to Outfitter (Guide Gun) length. The perfect huntin gun...

JustSayMo,

That's one hell of an idea, especially here in the rainy northwest. Next year I may try that, but with the .45/70.

Steve

 

[44AMP]

444 vs 45-70

The real drawback to the 444 over the 45-70 is the bulets. There just aren't a lot of rifle bullets in 44 cal. And shooting pistol bullets at rifle speeds does interesting (and often undesirable) things to their terminal performance.

Other than that, it is a good choice. The round itself works well. You just don't have as many options as you do with the .45-70. Handloaders have the most choices, but even there the 45 cal rifles has it over the 44.

If limited to factory ammo the .45-70 has the greater range of ammo available. .444 and .450 Marlin are much more limited in choices. If one (or two) diffeerent loads will cover all your needs, either round is a good choice. If you want/need more versatility, the .45-70 is the way to go.

 

[AStone]

If you want/need more versatility, the .45-70 is the way to go.

Would someone kindly list the range of load options for the .45/70?

URLs appreciated.

Nem

 

[Old Time Hunter]

I would like to politely disagree with 44AMP, sounds like a y'upper thing. If you do not count the "Cowboy" loads for the .45-70 and are only looking at the "hunting" loads for modern rifles, like the Marlins and Rugers, I've just found 3 load selections by various manufacturers that meet "hunting" qualifications. They are: 300 gr, 350 gr, and 405 gr. in jacketed soft pts and a couple of hollow pts. Prices from Federal to Hornady, Winchester, Remington and the like range from about $30 a box to $40 a box.

The .444 on the other hand might only have 240 gr JSP's and 265 gr JSP's (also the Leverevolution Hornady's) from a couple of manufacturers, but they are readily available and run from $22 a box to $35 a box. Selections if you hand load are pretty broad with jacketed bullets ranging from 180 gr to 355 gr available from manufacturers such as Sierra, Speer, Hornady, Remington, etc, etc.

I do not see versatility as an issue. Noth'n against the .45-70, my '85 High Wall is one of my favorite rifles and my Win '86 is sweet, but for tout'n through the woods, I'll take a rifle chambered for a .44 caliber bullet cause of the quickness perceived or actual.

 

[stoky]

If you want to shoot factory loads go with the .444.
If you are a handloader, get the .45-70. .45-70 factory loads are very light in deference to Trapdoor Springfields and such.

Would someone kindly list the range of load options for the .45/70?

300gr to 610gr bullets. From a little under 1000 fps to well over 2000 fps.
If you are very interested pick up a copy of 40 Years with the .45-70
by Paul Mathews. The Elmer Keith letters alone are worth the cost of the book.
http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

 

[BobMcG]

can anyone offer insite as to the merits of either cartridge for up close heavy duty firepower?

Both the .444 and the .45-70 are all about "up close heavy duty firepower". I can't see you going wrong with either choice. Whatever is in the way when you drop the hammer will be just as dead without knowing which one you chose.

However, IMO if you're a handloader, you might be happier with the .45-70.

 

[danang]

Unless they have changed recently, the .444 Marlin has a rate of twist that is too slow for heavy bullets...which is why most of the factory offers are 240 and 265 grains. The .45 -70 will handle the heavy bullets well, but in the Marlin because of the limited length of cartridge the lever action will handle, you can't seat the 500 grainers out enough to gain much velocity. However my gun gives 1950 with the 400/405 grain bullets that really makes it a good killer. On both ends.

 

[kutenay]

I much prefer the .45-70 and load my two rifles so chambered with serious loads, 400 grs. at 1850 fps. I can go even hotter, but, these rifles do KICK and I see no point in beating myself up. For deer, the .444 might be the better choice, but, for larger game including G-bears, the .45-70 is much better.

Many foresters, etc., here in B.C. are buying these as protection weapons while working in bear country, a wise idea, IMO.

 

[bearmgc]

My 45-70 handles the 405gr well, tho I prefer the Winchester Partitions in 300gr. factory loads for elk. I tried the Garrett 420gr Superhardcast Hammerheads in my Marlin and they tumbled, keyholed to the target. I was very disappointed. I would guess that a ballard rifling would be better for those.

 

[Old Time Hunter]

Maybe I am reading some of this wrong, but it seems to me that most refer to the Marlin when discussing the .444. There is a better option, the '94 Winchester's in Big Bore, Black Shadow's, and Timber Carbine chambered for the .444 cartridge that have twist rates of 1-12 and 1-20 depending on model and year. All the Marlins came with the slow 1-38 twist (don't know about the XLR) that inhibits their full potential with heavier slugs...er, I mean bullets.

I have absolutely nothing against the .45-70's and I have a few, but the .444 is generally a better and cheaper cartridge for me to stock up on. I use the bullets in about six different rifles and two different pistols, whether they are .44 Mags or .444's I can use the same bullets (I hand load).

 

[NorthernGuy]

hey there,

I notice someone mentioned the rate of twist in the 444 marlins. From my research marlin now uses a 1:20 rate of twist in it's modern 444s.
I am in the same boat as some of you, trying to decide between a 444, 45/70 or 450 marlin.


Check out
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

for those into reloading. It speaks very highly of the 444.

 

[1977kaw]

Don't forget Corbon

they sell loads for both calibers
http://www.corbon.com/
I don't own either , but in all likelihood my next purchase will be a Marlin XLR .45-70 utilizing the new Hornady XLR loads, as my significant caliber, game getter.

 

[Gewehr98]

Other commercial .45-70 loads were not mentioned, either.

Garrett .45-70 Hammerheads, while not cheap, range from 350 to 540 grains, the latter especially designed for Marlin rifles with Ballard rifling.

Buffalo Bore ranges from 300 to 500 grains in their .45-70 offerings, including a 405gr jacketed flat nose moving at 2000fps. Their .45-70 loads are rated for Marlin leverguns, as well as Ruger #1 and #3 rifles, plus the Shiloh and C. Sharps Model 1874, the Browning Hi-Walls, and new production Winchester 1886 leverguns, among others.

I mention the latter load because it's pretty close to the 405gr Beartooth hard cast gas check handload I run in my Ruger #1 at 2150fps. Put that in the .444 Marlin pipe and smoke it.

 

[three rivers catahoulas & plotts]

444 marlin

I have both the .444 aswell as the 450 marlin and I would rather shoot my .444 and like the gentlmen said befor it is the best all around rifle out there matched with the new ammo. and it wont kill you when you shoot it.

 

[scubie02]

ok, is it just me, but the poster says he wants a guide gun, and isn't the guide gun only available in 45/70 at this point? That's what I thought last time I looked at the Marlin website anyway

 

[AStone]

I think Scubie is right.

The Marlin "guide gun" with shorter 18.5" barrel and straight stock - 1895G - is only available in .45-70.

The same lever gun by Marlin is available with longer barrel (22") and pistol grip in both .45-70 (1895) and .444.

I suspect my next long gun is going to be an 1895 in .45-70 (though I'm not ruling out the .444; still researching that). I don't want a straight stock, but I want a shorter barrel for a brush gun, so I plan to have a smith take about 3" off of an 1895 and recrown it.

 

[AStone]

Well, this thread has finally forced me to take a closer look at 444.

For a while, I've been set on .45-70, mainly because it's so common, historical and lots of people understand it.

But starting last night, and finishing a couple of minutes ago, I started collecting pages on the 444, some of them also comparing (pro/con) with .45-70.

Below is my incomplete list so far; I've only just started reading, but thought I'd post them here to stimulate some discussion.

Nem
__________

Brush Guns, by John Taffin: great overview of conversions of 1895 & 444 into brush guns by two gunsmiths.

The Marlin .444 by Chuck Hawks

The Marlin 444 Outfitter, by John Taffin. Far as I can tell, this was a modified Marlin 444. Don't know if it is still in production, though I don't see it on the Marlin site. Taffin points out some special considerations with ammo.

.444 Marlin: The Forgotten Big Bore by Dan Martinez.

A discussion of Hornady LE in .444 for use on black bear. I haven't read this yet.

The .444 Marlin By: Glen E. Fryxell (bookmarked, but not yet read).

 

[thisisdenny]

One thing you can say about Nematocyst

the man does his homework.