Maryland CCW Seminar, April 22nd

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Apologies if this has already been covered elsewhere. I browsed the MSI website and a few others, and didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

The Mt. Washington Rod & Gun Club is sponsoring a seminar on Maryland CHP/CCW. Guests include Colonel Thomas E. "Tim" Hutchins, Secretary of the Maryland State Police, and "command personnel from the MSP licensing division."

More information from www.associatedgunclubs.org:

"Since 1972 when the Maryland General Assembly passed legislation which prohibited Maryland citizens from wearing or carrying a concealed handgun without a permit, successive anti self defense administrations made it increasingly difficult to obtain a concealed handgun permit. Other than the permit application form, no other information on the application process, statutes, and regulations is readily available to the public.

The Maryland State Police have graciously agreed to attend this event in order to provide citizens with accurate information on the permit process, requirements, regulations, policies and procedures involved in applying for a permit to carry a concealed handgun in Maryland.

Following the MSP presentation there will be a question and answer session during which the MSP will answer questions posed by members of the audience. Note: Questions on specific applications or specific individuals will not be addressed or answered."

If you read the .pdf announcement from the link I gave above, you'll see there is a limit of 150 participants. I have information that 88 have RSVP'd. If you are sure you will make it (especially you MSI folk), I encourage you to RSVP. While I believe it would be a mistake to show up and ruthlessly berate the police folk who agreed to attend the seminar, it could be very useful to have a few members in the audience who are well versed in the legal/political aspects of CCW in MD, who will stand up and ask the tough questions.

I have a range badge at Marriottsville. As a bonus to anyone who's on the fence about attending, I'll volunteer to escort you on the range for a little rifle shooting in the morning before the seminar. I'll have a Swiss K31 and M/N M-44. I'll even buy you lunch (I'm sure we can find some fast food nearby).
 
Well, it doesn't look like any one wants to take me up on my offer. Darn. :)

If you can't go but have some questions for the MSP, pass them on to me and I'll try to ask them.
 
I RSVP'D weeks ago, but you can still buy me lunch if you want :neener:

I would take up your offer to hit the range early, but I have family obligations in the morning.
 
I RSVP'D weeks ago, but you can still buy me lunch if you want. I would take up your offer to hit the range early, but I have family obligations in the morning.
Click to expand...

Heheh, I should have qualified my offer with "if you weren't already planning on attending." You're on your own for lunch, but I'll look for you at the meeting. Are you coming prepared with some hard-hitting questions for the Secretary?
 
I have a few questions, but I'm pretty confident that they'll be answered long beforeI get to ask them.

This conference presents an interesting scenario.....many people are wondering what the purpose of it is.....it's AFTER the legislative session (so it does no good for the ccw bills this year), before the elections, Del Don Dwyer was NOT invited (He's been the main push in the House for ccw and other gun rights), last year AGC said it would, "Take an act of God" (verbatim) for them to support a ccw bill...So I'm going with an open mind and no expectations.
 
Bear with me, since I'm a little new to some of this, especially the AGC.

Am I hearing you right, that the AGC indicated as recently as last year that they basically do not support CCW? I don't get it. It certainly doesn't square with the information the put on the invitation to this event, in which they seemingly took a pro-CHP stance. Does the AGC have any political power/connections? I'm in the AGC through my gun club at work, but our club consists mainly of old guys who shoot .22 bullseye and don't seem to care about broader political issues related to guns. If that demographic is typical of the AGC, then I could believe that it's an ineffectual RKBA supporter.

I have to admit: I was also wondering what the point of this seminar was. I was hoping it was AGC giving its members an opportunity to call the MSP on the BS nature of the CCW process, but you bring up good points about the timing of this event, and who's invited.

Your strategy of "open mind and no expectations" sounds pretty reasonable.
 
My state of Ohio has graciously allowed its citizens to carry, if you pass the requirements., the C.L.E.O of each county is charged with issuing the permits. The CLEO in my county just has not shown much support in this area. I went ahead and receieved my permit from a neighboring county, but as a matter of principal called the CLEO of my home county weekly just to bust their chops. Finally , when I asked if they still chase burglers and rapists, then questioned why they choose to not actively take part in this responsibility. I had to actually explain that, IF they are not in favor of the CCW permit, that should be all the more of a reason to issue it, fullfilling the obligated legal duties, that way, they know who has one and who does not.Go figure.
Do not sit still and allow a CLEO in your state to get away with something like this, for even a day.
Another funny, the folks who predicted that the streets would be like "the old west" and would run red with blood from all the shootings, are not vocal about the decrease in violent crimes since passage of our CCW law.
I could go on and on for a while but I won`t.Good luck , do not allow anyone to take your rights for granted.
 
Am I hearing you right, that the AGC indicated as recently as last year that they basically do not support CCW?
Click to expand...

I can't speak for AGC, however I do believe they support ccw in general, but they live in fear of seeing bad amendments attached to a ccw bill. Maybe some administrative fix is in the works and this little shindig will help.

I think politics spills out of the legislature and into the various gun clubs. There's a lot of different organizations with similar or disimilar agendas, and everybody thinks they have a better way of doing things. Hard to say who is right or wrong, but it sure does slow down progress.
 
I just tried -- unsuccessfully -- to register for this event. It's already full, which is good news. Bad news because I was sort of looking forward to it though. I'm on the waiting list, so I'll show up anyway and maybe I'll get in.

Two points I want to make:

1) The guy I talked to in the AGC office was very confrontational, and very pissed off (not at me) that I had only heard about the event earlier this week. He demanded to know which gun club I was in, so he could chew out the club's officers for not alerting the club members of the event quicker. His apparent bad mood is understandable -- it certainly is frustrating to be a gun activist in a state like MD. But IMO this guy is going to alienate way more potential gun-friendly folk than he'll ever win over. It's a shame.

2) I found out the purpose of the event. It's not just a little tutorial on what the rules are in MD. I believe the intent is to put the MSP licensing folk on the hot seat, since they're the ones who apparently determine that "self-defense" is not a valid reason for a CHP. I'm glad that this is the focus of the seminar, but see point 1) and you'll realize why I think there's a good chance this is going to backfire bigtime. I believe there's an aphorism about flies and honey that could be relevant here.
 
Unfortunately, I cannot attend the Seminar, because I'm all the way out in Washington, heh, but here is the questions I would ask the Maryland Handgun Licensing Division:

1) There's been a resurgance in carry permit reform legislation lately, and now 39 states are shall-issue, and your neighbor to the east, Delaware is likely to go shall-issue this year. A lot of these bills strip the issuing agencies of authority to deny permits to how they feel are especially dangerous individuals. Would the Maryland State Police Licensing Division, like Sheriff Mike Carona of Orange County, California, or many of the counties in may-issue states, such as Iowa, New York, and California, consider liberalizing their permit issuance policy to allow them to be generally issued for personal protection, so that they can maintain their ability to deny permits to obviously unstable individuals while allowing those who want the permits can get them, and thus reduce the large possibility of a reform bill passing taking away all authority from the Maryland State Police to decide who can and cannot get a permit (This is my suggestion for an administrative fix, folks).

2) Along the same lines, does the Maryland State Police Licensing Division believe that it'll cost them more to more liberally issue personal protection permits, or do they believe that they will make money in the endeavor and allow equipment upgrades and more law enforcement on the streets from a public announcement of permits being more freely available and therefor more applications being filed? (This is self financing suggestion, similar to Florida's licensing division being self supporting and actually making "profit").
 
I spoke with the head of AGC, and he stated that there were no recording equipment, it would be too daunting to get the releases done to do it. I hope one of us can have a laptop in there and transcribe the meeting and the questions being asked. Pretty please?
 
Thanks for your input, Lonnie.

If I'm able to get in tomorrow, I'll at the very least take good notes and report back here. Otherwise, I know Spot77 will be there, and possibly other THR's. I'm sure between us we'll be able to transcribe what happens. Maybe someone will record it -- who knows.
 
I wish I would have known about the event earlier. I would have attended.

Please respond to the thread when you return and have a report for us. I will monitor it your response.
 
Here are my notes from the seminar:

Captain Herman, who leads the handgun licensing division (and who is new to this job), discussed how the current system has not operated efficiently, and what steps are being taken to expedite the processing of CHP's. Basically they're buying new computers, using an electronic finger-print machine instead of paper cards to send to the FBI, and they're trying to hire more injured "desk job" cops to process applications and do background investigations.

Some of the highlights of her talk:

- about 95% of the annual ~4,500 applicants are approved, and the MSP is apparently proud of that "success rate." (despite the fact that almost nobody who wants a CHP applies, because they know full well that it is $117 flushed down the toilet if they say their reason is "self-defense")

- the current application process touches no fewer than 14 different computer databases. She did not mention if the "new, improved" process will reduce that number.

- between 5-10% of rejected applicants choose to appeal their rejections to the Handgun Permit Review Board (not part of the police dept, but part of the MD Department of Public Safety and Correctional Services). Approximately 1/3 of the rejections are overturned by the HG Permit Review Board.

--------------------------------

The interesting part was the Q/A session. Pretty much all of the questions were asked of Mr. Hutchins, the Secretary of the MSP. What follows are the highlights:

Q: "If someone is issued a 'restricted' CHP that only allows them to carry during 'the normal course of business' and 'normal business hours', isn't it true that different officers might interpret 'normal' differently?
A (Hutchins): Yes, officers will use their own subjectivity when deciding whether you're illegally carrying a handgun beyond the restrictions stated on your permit. (He admitted that could be problematic, and said that's something they'll "look into")

Q: "The MD law states that a person may be issued a permit to carry a concealed handgun if he can show 'good and substantial reason to carry a firearm...as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger'. The same law gives discretionary power to the Secretary of the MSP to define what 'good and substantial" means. If the Secretary has not given the handgun licensing division guidance on the definition of that term, then under what authority does the handgun licensing division restrict the issuance of permits?"
A (Herman): (she balked)
A (Hutchins): We operate under the current law.

Q: "Secretary, do you feel like you can exercise flexibility and discretion when defining 'good and substantial?'"
A (Hutchins): As far as defining 'good and substantial,' we 'know it when we see it' As far as an actual definition of 'good and substantial,' we at the MSP would love it if the legislature provided us with a definition.

Q: "Can retired LE carry in MD, as per the recent federal law?"
A (Hutchins): Yes, no need for a MD CHP in that case.

Q: "Looking ahead, do you see the MSP relaxing the issuance of CHP's to regular citizens, not just business representatives carrying large sums of money?"
A (Hutchins): Well first of all the Governor can't do anything about it, that has to come from the legislature. So talk to the legislature, it's out of our hands.

Q: "A regular, non-business-money-carrying-citizen, has to show that he has suffered previous attacks or threats to his life in order to be eligible for a CHP. Unfortunately, the bad guys do not give warning before they attack people, so I, a regular citizen, cannot get a CHP until it's too late and I've been attacked. Doesn't that seem unjust?"
A (Hutchins): I understand this is an emotional issue for you. You need to take that up with the leglislature.

Q: "As far as 'good and substantial' goes, do we REALLY need the legislature to provide you with a definition? The law states that the Secretary of the MSP decides what that term means, so what's preventing YOU from stating that self-defense is a 'good and substantial' reason?"
A (Hutchins): (he totally balked on this one, once again saying we're "following the law" and "take it up with the legislature")

Q: "In my experience, many military and police personnel do not support the right of regular civilians to own firearms. Given your background in the army and Maryland state police, I was wondering how YOU feel about the right of civilian firearm ownership.
A (Hutchins): My opinion is not relevant.

Q (followup): "It is relevant, since you're the person under the law who uses his discretion to define 'good and substantial'."
A (Hutchins): My opinion is not relevant -- I'm bound to work under the law, whatever it is.

Q: "Are there any other states that you look to as a model for what Maryland's CHP should be like?
A (Hutchins): That's something I will look at to see how other states operate -- obviously states in our category, that is, states that are not shall-issue.

Q: "I've heard various rumors about the amount of money that a business person carries before they're carrying enough to satisfy your requirements to have a CHP issued to them. I'm a small business owner, and I don't carry LARGE amounts, but what I do carry is absolutely critical to the success of my business. If I get robbed and lose that money, it is just as significant to me as if a larger business lost a larger deposit. Can you comment on this?"
A (Hutchins): I definitely see your point, and my perspective on that is, "a business is a business, no matter how big or small, and we'll take that into consideration when processing your permit application.

Q: "Do you support shall-issue in MD?"
A (Hutchins): I can't answer that because of my position of Secretary of the MSP, but you can go see how I voted when I was a member of the Maryland general assembly.

Q: "I'm old and in a wheelchair. If I apply for a CHP, do I have a better 'good and substantial' reason than this fellow over here, who is able bodied?"
A (Herman): We do consider factors like yours when determining 'good and substantial' reasons.
-----------------------------------------------

The gist: Secretary Hutchins MUST be clearly aware that the law gives him final discretion in defining what "good and substantial" means. Yet he repeatedly punted and told people they need to address this through the legislature. When asked point blank whether he thought it was unfair that the MSP seems to offer CHP's to protect business owners, but not "regular citizens" for the purpose of self-defense, he trotted out this gem:

"A business is a business, large or small. I think a business person is more likely to be attacked by a criminal than a regular person."

I wasn't given an opportunity to ask him the following question: "A life is a life. Are you telling me business and money are more important than a life? And are you also telling me you have statistics to back up your claim that business owners are more likely to be attacked in Maryland than the average person?"

All in all the meeting was depressing. These people are *clearly* not on the side of those who believe in the RKBA. Yet I'm told that this set of people -- the Secretary and the licensing division folk -- are the most RKBA-friendly we've had in Maryland since this whole issue came about 30+ years ago. Ugh. :cuss:
 
Excellent notes! I can't really add much to your recap.

It is disappointing that AGC would not let anybody make audio recordings of the event. Maybe we could've gotten a few good sound bites to use in future lobbying for decent ccw legislation.

To me, this seemed more as a cheerleading stop for Gov. Ehrlich's re-election bid. I think he knows he's pissed off gun owners and he's talking the talk to ensure the gunowners' vote. A shame he won't walk the walk.
 
I attended the CCW seminar, but left at the break for work. The first half seemed very optimistic with a 95% approval of permits. My question, are only business owners applying for these permits? I would have thought half the people in that room would have applied at some point if just for the bragging rights.
Here is my situation. I am a professional photographer in Baltimore City/County who regularly shoots architectural assignments. Lately, the job has taken me frequently to rather dicey areas in PG county. I shoot early in the morning and sometimes sunsets. The gear I use is upwards of $30K, I work alone with my eye stuck in a viewfinder, my back to the street. I am very vigilant and take my security seriously. I have martial arts knowledge, but at age 45, hitting someone is not cool.
Would you care to share your opinion on my chances for a permit? I can articulate to MSP and market this strategy more effectively, this is it in a nutshell.

Thanks.
 
AGC CCW Seminar

To All Thread Posters:

Two persons who attended Saturday's CCW Seminar at the Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore sent me emails advising me of several threads referencing the conference (they used their real names).

If you have a suggestion, question, or a criticism I ask only that you call, write, or email me directly. Please don't scurry about in the shadows, posting on sites while hiding behind false or cutsie monikers criticising what I have done, offering baseless opinions on my motives or simply thumping your chests about what YOU would have done. If you can do better please do. I have been doing this for over 13 years and I would welcome someone with your obvious enthusiasm and expertise to take over my position and responsibilities.

My email address is: [email protected]
My mailing address is: P.O. Box 20102 Towson, MD 21286-8321
My phone number is: 410-296-3947

OR

You may attend the next AGC trustees meeting on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 at 1930 hours. The meetings are held in the lower range house (Entrance of Wards Chapel Road). Directions to the range can be found by visiting our web page http://www.associatedgunclubs.org

Best regards to all,

John H. Josselyn
Legislative Vice President
Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore, Inc.
 
John, you obviously misread the title of this forum; it's called The High Road where we speak politely to each other. I reread the entire thread and didn't find any real disparaging comments directed at you or AGC.

Don't like people discussing things? Don't read the threads.

You were asked by the President of Maryland Shall Issue.org for your motives but you apparently didn't think it was important enough to reply. Two simple questions that you refused to answer.

So therefore we will "scurry about in the shadows" and "hide behind cutsie monikers" all we want. This is our sandbox. Go piss and moan somewhere else.

You want criticism? How about running a spell check before producing the booklet that you passed out? ( It was nicely done otherwise.) At least proof read it so you might notice the missing words in at least one of the sentences on the COVER page before spending AGC members' money producing it.

There, now I gave you some truth to your previous baseless juvenile accusations.


So spill the beans to everybody here (There's at least 150 Maryland users on this forum), what was the your true motivation for the event?

Nobody likes a bully. Ask Jim Purtilo.
 
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John,

Don't worry. My "Thank You" letter to the Col. will be in the mail tomorrow with a copy to you and one to the Gov.

Oh... it might not be the "thanks" you wanted the participants to send, but I wasn't too impressed that the MSP has a new machine that cranks out 250 permit cards per hour. I guess it just sits idle the other 364 days of the year.

In all sincerity, thanks for organizing the event. It let me know that the administation has no intention to loosen the meaning of "good and substantial". So... why is it that we should support Ehrlich later this year? Or were you trying to embarrass the Gov? We're all just dying to know.

Greg
 
Unfortunately, unless the Democrats give us a pro-gun candidate (they wont), we really dont have much of a choice other than to re-elect Ehrlich. At least Ehrlich doesnt try to get new gun control bills passed. :(

I guess we still have a lot of work ahead of us.
 
Anyone have a mailing address for the Secretary? I'd like to write him a letter and suggest they look at Delaware. They're still may-issue, but if you jump through all the hoops you wont be turned down.

Kharn
 
Check your fire Spot77. Perhaps we should have challenged Live Free or Die.

I know John, and it's true that he's the type of person who doesn't long tolerate people who shoot without first confirming their target. It's one of the reasons he's been so effective. He'll let you dig your own hole. Some folks get a little perturbed when he let's them know that 6 feet is deep enough. Most of these folks are politicians who can't afford to be seen in that light. Knowing John I've gotta ask a few questions.

Is it possible that LFoD gave John a hard time about the late notice when it wasn't John's fault?

Is it possible that LFoD didn't recognize that John organized this himself with only minimal support from others (by the way, does anybody else here have the pull to get the Col. a Capt., some judges and the Gov's counsel to come to what they fear will be a version of Custer's Last Stand)?

Does you guys know that John runs a business too and doesn't get paid to do this? For every hour John puts into his business he puts in an hour and a half on activism (if you take a look at the timing on some of his postings it's after a lot of us had been in bed for several hours). By the way, John goes out of pocket for all of the materials and he doesn't always ask for reimbursement.

Do we really expect him to hold the hand of everyone who expects someone else to keep them in the loop?

Is it possible that LFoD busted John's chops rather than questioning his own club's organizers? For all we know he might have sounded like and anti-gunner in sheep's clothing.

Is it possible that LFoD belongs to a non-activist or maverick club? One that doesn't participate but always finds fault in what someone else is doing?

Is LFoD volunteering to man the Legislative phone (because he has better "people" skills)?

One of the major problems our community faces is the folks on our side who want everything NOW. It's not going to happen. Learn from Vietnam. There is never going to be a force-on-force faceoff again. No more direct assaults. Politics was guerrilla warfare before it was cool.

John has fought a long war of attrition and it seems to me he must be winning because we're seeing the officers instead of the troops.

CeaseFire MD appears to have fallen in complete disarray.

John got a member of the legislature voted out of office because he was all talk and no walk. Anybody else here able to say that?

LFoD did have some sage advice. If we had busted the Col's chops what good would it do? Yeah, the guy said in between the lines that he has the authority to define "reasonable", he also said between the lines that he takes direction from higher-ups. If the Col. had said "under my authority, I hereby declare that not wanting to be a victim is "reasonable" enough" some folks here would be very happy....for a day.

Because Monday morning we'd be reading in the Sunpapers how Erlich waxed the Col. for some other plausable reason and his replacement not only set us back but the person they picked may not have the Col's honor. Politics is like chess, you can't get checkmate on the first move; just not possible. Erlich could set himself pretty with the anti folks and be able to blame us.

C'mon guys, you say you hate bullies and then you're mad because we didn't bully the Col?

If you can't figure out what happened Saturday then there's a good reason to have this guy lead this and not you. I've been an activist for only a few years and I've come to understand that I don't need to be in on every detail. I need to move when I'm asked to, stand down when I'm asked to.

Since John's been doing this we've made tremendous progress. John has been attacked in the newspapers and websites for walking the walk.

When I was kid and he was barely out of high school, John almost lost his life saving one of my best friend's mom when their house caught fire. She was overcome by smoke and unconscious in the house. John recognized that she didn't have the time for him to get a mask and a tank. He went in wearing only the gear he bought for himself (because that's how volunteer fire companies work). He got her out the window to a paid fireman and then fell unconscious out of that second story window onto the bricks below.

Spot77 now would be a good time to get out of this kitty litter/sandbox, take a step on the real high road and show this man who earned his citizenship some respect.

The man stood up and said "if you have problem here I am". And what he got back was a voice hidden in an otherwise silent crowd saying "your mommy makes you use a spell checker funny".

Perhaps our society has fallen to the point that the "High and Mighty Self-Important, I am Special Hear Me Roar, Freeway" has replaced that old, worn, and difficult High Road.

John, if you read this, forgive me if I've embarrassed you by my outburst. I hope also that you recognize that there are those of us who, while we don't always understand or sometimes agree, know we need you on that wall. You've got a lot higher tolerance for this crap than I do. I'd've left these guys whining rather than fighting for them.
 
One of the major problems our community faces is the folks on our side who want everything NOW.
Click to expand...

Hmmm...I've been waiting around 30 years or so as the problem in this state gets worse and worse. I guess I'm impatient.....

Trouble is that the "veteran" activists (and I don't mean John in particular) have measured their success by how little ground we've lost rather than how much ground we've gained.

There is great value in patience and strategic thinking, but we seemed to have taken that to the point of the dogmatic in this state rather than finding tactics which actually work and make progress.
 
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