Maryland Law concearning Converters

[JamesWoods]

Hi, I was wondering about Maryland law concearning Conversion Cylinders for Blackpowder Revolvers that still require Black Powder loads.

A Customer of the Convinient store I worked at said that an 18 year old can buy & install one, but cannot buy a revolver with one installed. That an 18 year old cannot buy handgun amunition, but can load his own.

Question - Is this true?

Question 2 - Concearning a conversion from .36 to 38spl, What brand of ammo works the best?

 

[mike101]

Everyone, including Cimmaron Arms and R&D, seems to like Black Hills Ammo. Try that. They all recommend it.

I tried to look up Maryland gun laws. I couldn't find actual statutes, but I found a synopsis of some laws.
This is going to sound a little strange, but there are some pretty strange gun laws out there.

You have to be 21, in Maryland, to purchase a handgun, but you can get a permit to carry one if you're 18. Makes no sense at all, but there it is.

According to the BATF, C&B revolvers are not firearms. Cartridge conversion cylinders are considered accessories, so no federal laws concerning them, either. Not yet! If they won't sell you a cylinder in Md. just get it on the web. Just make sure you remove it if you are going to transport it to a range, or wherever.

If you have a drop-in cylinder, and do not alter the gun in any way, the gun becomes a BATF firearm, only when you install the cylinder. When you take it out, it returns to non-firearm status. So, you can't buy a gun with the cylinder installed until you are 21. If you have a loading gate installed, the gun is a firearm all of the time, regardless of which cylinder is in it at the moment. However, you can send the gun out to a smith and have the gate installed, and they can return the gun directly to you, as opposed to having to send it to a FFL dealer. Actually, they can do the whole conversion for you, still without involving a FFL dealer. I don't know how long that is going to last, but that's the way it is currently.

Sorry, but I didn't see anything about ammo. However, you can get factory ammo, or reloading components over the Internet. FYI, they charge a $20 per shipping container Hazmat fee to ship powder and, in some cases, primers.

Right now, the anti-gun crazies, in most states, don't seem to know about black powder guns, and apparently, neither do criminals. In a few states, like the Peoples' Republic of New Jersey, BP guns are considered firearms, and you have to have the same plethora of permits for them, too. Don't ever move to NJ!!!

I assume, since we are talking .38 special, instead of .38 Long Colt, that you are considering a Remington. The cylinder pops in and out so easily that it's faster to reload the cylinder than it is to reload using an ejector rod. In 1869, when Remington started making cartridge conversions, this was the most popular choice. People didn't bother with the ejector rod. Clint Eastwood uses this type of Remmy conversion in Pale Rider.

Hope this was helpful.

 

[JamesWoods]

Well, I've talked to the range officer in Carrol County, & he said that a Blackpowder revolver is considered a Black powder revolver by the frame of the gun, not the cylender. So as long as the Frame is untouched, it's still a Blackpowder firearm.

The Bore of my Uberti 1858 New Army is .375, where as .38 special Dimentions are .357-.358. Now to shoot .38 special out of a .375 blackpowder gun, I need Black Powder equivilant loads w/ a bullet that reaches for the rifling.

I want to know the Mr. Right of Ammunition for my converted revolver. If it gets too bad, I'll just buy the .44 version & the .45 colt cylender.

I have a permit to buy a handgun I got 3/4 year ago actually from an NRA Handgun Safety coarse. So I feel double insured. LOL, what's a guy got to do to prove he's responsible enough to own a handgun. I have a feeling I'll be moving to Colorado w/in 3 years anyway. I can only assume Gun Laws will be more foregiving there.

 

[Norton]

Well, I've talked to the range officer in Carrol County

I'd suggest that the more prudent cause of action in matters related to legal issues that you start by calling the firearms division of the MD State Police. Range officers, like gun store workers, are not exactly known for their adroitness in navigating MD's insane laws beyond those necessary to legally ply their trade.

In fact, just a little over a week ago a county police department gave one of our fellow members here some advice that could have earned him a stay in a small room with a large roommate. Fortunately he called the MSP and got it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

I have a permit to buy a handgun I got 3/4 year ago actually from an NRA Handgun Safety coarse

The NRA course does not necessarily qualify you to buy a handgun in the state of MD. Did the NRA course issue you the little state card that shows that you have completed a certified course as outlined here? :

Is there any training that one must have prior to purchasing, receiving or renting a regulated firearm.
Yes, as a result of the responsible Gun Safety Act of 2000, anyone who purchases a regulated firearm after January 1, 2002 is required to complete a certified firearms training course, however, the below are the exceptions of the training requirements: - Is a law enforcement officer of the state or any local law enforcement agency in the state. - Is a member, retired member, or honorably discharged member of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard. - Is a member of an organization that is required by federal law governing its specific business or activity to maintain handguns and applicable ammunition; or - Holds a permit to carry a handgun in this state

More info on training requirement here

 

[Norton]

James Woods,

I don't mean to sound like I'm busting your chops. It sounds like you're new to dealing with MD's labyrinth laws and I always believe it is better to be cautious than sorry.

Let us know what you find out after calling MSP

 

[Biggfoot44]

As to ammo in question, two choices, use hollow base bullets to bump up to bbl dia. Or have bbl relined to .357, which is reportedly still usable with cap & ball cylnder. Reading through Marylands ststutes recently, as a cap & ball, it is not a "firearm", and not regulated under those statutes. But it would probably fall under being a "dangerous weapon" . Thereby can not carry "with intent to unlawfully injure, or commit a crime" or somthing close to that. AND can not be concealed. However ... go ahead and try that anywhere not authorized to otherwise carry actual "firearm" openly, and odds are good you will get to be a "test case".

 

[JamesWoods]

In Response, Yes The NRA issued me a card saying that I can buy a Handgun in the state of Maryland.

Having the Barrel Re-lined to .357 means that I have changed the frame & then I have a problem.

Is there a mainstream manufacturer that makes Hollow Base Conical bullets suitable for Blackpowder pistols?

(Tell U the truth, I'm good with a rifle & would probably be just happy by buying a Marlin 1894 .357 rifle) I like the cowboy guns. & I'll probably just be good by using my remington as a Black powder. I'll just get 100 Coke viles & measure 20 grains of 777 each to make reloading faster.

 

[JNewell]

If you're interested in a BP conversion, have you considered the Ruger Old Army and a .45 Colt conversion cylinder? More money, but undisputed quality and reliability.

 

[mike101]

Having the barrel lined is not the same as changing the frame. You won't have any problems, because it does not affect BATF firearm/non-firearm status. This I'm sure of.

Meaning no disrespect to the range officer, but I'm 99.99% sure that when a cartridge cylinder is in place, it's a BATF firearm. I read it on a dealer or manufacturor website, but don't remember where.

Having the barrel lined is the best way to go. Then you can shoot .38 caliber anything, special or Long Colt, hollow base, or conventional. .38 special ammo is alot more readily available, too. It doesn't have to be Cowboy Ammo, either. Anything up to around 1000 fps will be fine. You might not want to use jacketed bullets, though. That Italian steel is pretty soft. This is why I too am a big fan of the Old Army. Modern, high-grade steel. It's the only C&B revolver that uses it, and it will handle whatever .45 Colt cartridge your little heart desires. Also, the internal parts don't break!

When Bill Ruger decided to build the gun, he told his engineers it had to be as strong as a Super Blackhawk(.44 Magnum), and it is. No historical significance, other than the fact that is the best C&B revolver ever made, but it's old westy looking enough for me.

I mis-spoke in my previous post. I said it's a firearm if you have a loading gate installed. I meant to say, if you have a LOADING GROOVE cut into the frame. Sorry.

 

[mike101]

Big Iron

Since you are new to all of this, I have an interesting website for you. Bigironbarrels.com. They only work on black powder guns. Lot's of interesting services. They can put a high grade steel liner in your barrel, and build you a conversion cylinder. Hell, they could clone your whole gun. Check them out.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Mr. Woods,

The simplest way to make your converted .36 shoot .38 special instead of .375 ball, is to hand load or buy .38 special with hollow base wadcutters. The skirt at the base of the projectile will flare and grab the rifling better than solid wadcutters or solid semi-wadcutters. You can still shoot common .38 cowboy loads, but the accuracy won't be as good. It won't be bad, just not as good as it could be.

Nothing changes the status of the gun if you have the barrel sleeved with a .357. It's still a cap-n-ball revolver.

As for the "status" of the cap-n-ball revolver..., with the cylinder in place, it's a handgun. If you transport the handgun with the conversion cylinder out, but without the cap-n-ball cylinder in place, it's a handgun. (For example, disassembling a S&W model 10 by removing the cylinder wouldn't change it's status either.)

Maryland does not classify handguns by the "frame" or "reciever", but by the ammunition that it launches. If it fires fixed ammo "that is readily available" then its a handgun, period. FYI - the Black Hills ammo for the conversions is available in smokeless, and can be duplicated by handloading.

Many older handguns were not considered "restricted" as they fired so called obsolete ammo. .455 Webley, .38 Colt, .41 Colt, .44 Russian, .45 Schofield, were all calibers that were rarely seen, but as they were not "readily available" such handguns were not controlled (converting brass and handloading didn't have an impact on this requirement, neither did finding old boxes of factory ammo, only if it was still manufactured matters - don't know why).

Now that Cowboy Shooting has resurrected many calibers long since dead, many old handguns have to be cleared before they can be sold, or may not be sold, as they are not "approved" by the state. i.e. the old Remington .22 rimfire single shot derringers, the ones with the barrels that break sideways, are legal to own, buy may not be resold, as they are not approved.

I hope this helps.

LD
Maryland Cop

 

[Duncaninfrance]

....many old handguns have to be cleared before they can be sold, or may not be sold, as they are not "approved" by the state. i.e. the old Remington .22 rimfire single shot derringers, the ones with the barrels that break sideways, are legal to own, buy may not be resold, as they are not approved.

Just a thought, because I am devious . If you can't SELL them , could they be given as a gift? If so you could give someone the gun but he could pay you $100 for an item such as a screw or a razor - something totally gun unrelated
Duncan

 

[arcticap]

Generally, the laws employ the word "transfer" rather then "sell", just as it is often applied in many of the drug laws. Giving away drugs is considered "distribution" whether actually sold or not.

 

[The Sicilian]

Sheesh! Listening to a cop is just as bad!!!! Read the laws for yourself, it's the best way to stay safe. The real deal is our country is turning into the land of jack-booted thugs and the second amendment is already dead. If it wasn't dead then we could buy a handgun like our ancestors did! Simply walk into a store or order it out of a hunting Catalog, etc. Just like buying a sack of potatos. If the second amendment was still being enforced the way it was originally intended then you wouldn't have to do jack ****! No paperwork, no I.D., no nothing! What, pray tell me, is it called when one must jump through all these hoops to get a firearm that was supposed to be a right and not a privelige? Registration!!!! And why would a government want its "citizens" to register their guns? So they are easier to find when they decide to take them away!!!!

And trust me, one day in the land of the supposedly "free" and used to be "brave" they will come for your firearms. What happened last summer in New Orleans? The same jack-booted thugs (Police officers and Soldiers) illegally took people's firearms. I have it on videotape (Computer video to be specific)! they even tackled a poor old lady for no damn reason, just to take here little .38 or .32 revolver from her. She wasn't pointing the weapon at anyone and she was in her own home trying to defend herself. And along comes the news people with their cameras and the goon squad cops to make a show of the poor old women. What if it had been your mother or your grandmother! What a bunch of cowards!

Truth is, we'll always have criminals who will always have guns. The argument that says legislating firearms to death is the answer goes against all logic and common sense, not to mention real world experience. Let's leave statistics out of this, even if they strengthen our side of the argument, because statistics are simply a bull**** dishonest way to prove whatever you may want to prove. The Second amendment doesn't give us anything, it just proclaims the truth...That we were created by our Father in heaven to be free, to be under no other mans will or control.

And because of that freedom we were all born with, it was self evident and reasonable that we could defend ourselves with whatever means necessary...and we chose the firearm. No government gave us this right, God gave us this right. No peice of paper gave us the right to bear arms, as free men we naturally saw it to be good and necessary. What would happen if there was no constitution and there was no Second amendment? Would that change anything? Would that mean we couldn't arm ourselves to protect our family or friends or even our country if invaded by a foreign aggressor? Hell no!!! Our UNION is falling apart, not by foreign invaders but by the ignorance of its people. We hear on the television, from the mouth of our president, from news anchors and any other ill advised and ignorant person that we live in a Democracy and that we need to spread Democracy throughout the world. That is one big lie! We are not a democracy, We are a Constitutional Republic that practices a limited form of democracy in order to elect our representatives in government. Our Constitution is the principal writ that we go by as a society.

Democracy is nothing more than "Mob rules". It's the majority....and if the majority agrees that it's okay to rape little girls and hang "*******" then that is what will happen. If the majority says it's okay to take "John's" land because John has the best spread then the majority will take "John's" land and devide it up amongst themselves....that, my freinds, is what democracy truly is. A Constitutional Republic, on the other hand, affords the minority some very real and necessary protections from the majority, and balances the playing feild as best as is humanly possible. It's not perfect, and as we can all see, it has been hijacked and propagandized into being just a "Democracy". Don't fall for their lies and bull****! Start to read, educate yourself and don't be afraid to organize with other like minded "Patriots". If you do nothing then you really don't give damn for your country!

 

[pohill]

Sicilian, when people claim that we live in a democracy, I point to the Pledge of Allegiance: "And to the REPUBLIC for which it stands..." That makes them think...
I, for one, do not believe that the 2nd Amendment is dead, or will ever die. 230 years later, I own all the guns I want (and I live in MA). It is challenged daily, but we have a tool to keep it alive -our vote. Stay educated and updated and vote accordingly.
On 9/11/01 my anti-gun neighbor wanted me to get him a gun no matter what...he was afraid and his natural inclination was to get a gun. As people get more afraid and scared of the world, I think you'll see more of that same reaction.

 

[The Sicilian]

Can you walk in a gun shop and buy any gun you want WITHOUT jumping through hoops and filling out multiple forms of paperwork? Nope, that changed back in 1968. The Second amendment as it was written no longer exists. That's the problem, people think they are educated about things! Do you know what Fabian socialism is? If you don't you should find out. The quick answer is something referred to as incrimentalism or the "frog in the pot". Take a frog and put it in a pot of water on your stove. Very, very, slowly turn up the heat in very small incriments. The frog will not notice the heat getting hotter and hotter as the time passes. Before you know it the frog has been cooked. Same thing goes for the people of the United States.

The pledge of Allegence was something started way after our forefathers passed away and I know you don't know this but....people didn't put their hand over their heart, they put their right hand up EXACTLY like they did in the Third Reich during Hitler's time in NAZI Germany! It was changed because of growing fascism in Europe. I also have pictures of school children doing the NAZI in the United States before it was changed! This is what I'm talking about! People Think they know what is going on but really have no idea. Please forgive me because I am not trying to attack you, I was ignorant myself about a lot of these things.

Our country has been taken over from within...socialism is taught in ALL of the major universities...can you give me another name for Socialism? We now have a government organization called "Homeland Security" and nobody is up in arms about this! My God!!!! That's pretty much right in your face. Have you ever even read the "Patriot" Act? They passed a draconian law and then called it the "Patriot" act so no one would oppose it! Did you know they passed the Patriot act in the middle of the night? Did you also know that only one Congressmen read it before voting on it? Just one!!! Most People can only name of of the first ten amendments! They actually believe President Bush when he says lying crap like "We need to spread freedom and Democracy around the world." When in reality he is spreading murder and aggression.

I'm neither a Democrat or a Republican...why? Because they're both bull****!!! Do you know what the definition of insanity is? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. How long have people been voting for the same Democrats and the same Republicans yet things keep getting worse? Think about it! Do you really think things have gotten so far away from the politicians that they cannot reel thing in! That's a complete lie! They know exactly what they are doing! These people have been selling out our UNION for a long time yet foolish people keep VOTING for them ,expecting things to get better even though experience has taugh us the opposite. It's time to clean up this mess!!

What would our "Forefathers" be doing if they were alive right now? Do you think they would be for or against the war in Iraq? Have you ever written any of their writings? They were against these types of things and forewarned us in advance that making treaties and alliances with other countries would lead us into wars that had nothing to with out common good. People are so hopped up because of all the so-called "Patriotism" that's being thrown around. They've made it that if a REAL PATRIOT speaks up he is looked at as some sort of traitor or something. Telling the truth in such times of deceit are revolutionary acts of bravery!

I've got a FEMA guy on tape teaching Police and Firefighters that our Forefathers were Terrorists! George Washington a Terrorist! Can you believe that! What a bunch of bullcrap! I'm not even big on our "forefathers" to be honest, but they did get jammed up and then had to write up the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Thanks to Thomas Payne. Without him we would have had another King George....King George Washington!!!! All of us supposed patriotic people better smarten up and stop believing everything we hear on the television and read in the paper or it will be the death of us.

Let me say one thing in closing....I do not hate the police or Soldiers. My grandfather was a cop, my cousins are police officers. But things have changed and most of the good cops have retired. The new generation of police are simply no good! A few may be good but 95% of the barrel is rotten! I respect soldiers but do not give them so much credit as to worship them like most folks. I don't think it's a good thing to congradulate a bunch of guys doing the work for a bunch of evil slobs. I know plenty of vets, both from the past and the future. Again, my grandfather was a world war II veteran. Being a soldier does not mean you follow the orders of a maniac, it does not mean kill without thinking. We should support are troops for real and bring them on home! To think young United States sovereign people are being killed for a bunch of fat rich people! And all in the name of Democracy and Freedom, what a bunch of Propaganda!

Start thinking for yourselves!!!

The Sicilian.

 

[pohill]

Sicilian, saying that 95% of cops are bad is like saying that all Italians are in the Mafia...just not true. If you said that 5% of cops are bad, I'd agree with you...5% of anything is bad (lawyers = 50%. Just Kidding). As far as walking into a gun shop and buying a gun...the paperwork is a nuisance but I still have my guns. They can squeeze us but they won't stop gun ownership. What Old West town was it...Dodge?...where they made you check your guns befor entering the town.
And I'm not ignorant on the topic of world events and situations...I'm a realist. Our country, our system, isn't perfect, but it's the best there is.
And...be careful when talking about cooking frogs...might piss off the French ha ha.

 

[The Sicilian]

True, 95% was a little extreme, but I think you get my point. Things are getting worse and not better. And their is quite a lot of things happening that you probably have no idea about....like the Texas corridor? Or the planned Union between Canda, Mexico and the United States. What about CAFTA....do you really understand the implications of CAFTA....no more constitution! What about 911 and government collusion? Those towers didn't come down simply because two planes hit into them. They were built to withstand MULTIPLE plane hits. Not to mention all of the evidence of demolitions being used to take them down.

There is more than 500 different pieces of evidence that 911 was done not by these supposed terrorists but by elements that have infultrated our own governemt. Think about it, 500 diffferent pieces of FACTUAL evidence....outrageous!!!! But we never here about in the mainstream media. They keep us busy with Sports and Michael Jackson fondling little boys!!! No mention about our new fangled fascistic "Homeland Security". Come on Pohill, you're not a stupid man and your older than me...what do the signs of the times tell you?

I wonder how those froglegs taste? I bet they aren't too bad. Hell! I am Sicilian and we can make just about anything taste good!!!! (A lot of us have been known to be a little on the shady side, at least in our younger days )

 

[pohill]

2 good points...I am not stupid and I am probably older than you. I just don't buy into the theory that our government brought down those towers. But, if it gets you through the day...
I think we should invade Mexico and Canada, take over the taco stands and hockey rinks. That'll show 'em.
Anyways, I'm really peed off today...went to the gunclub to shoot my 1861 36 caliber Colt Navy Signature Series revolver and the Special Interest Groups had taken over the outdoor range, those commi Pin Shooters (they shoot bowling pins...actually looks like fun). And over to the right, way to the right, were those redneck backwood Trap Shooters. Indoors were the Elite Indoor Pistol Shooters, too cool to shoot outdoors, and don't get me going on those Middle of the Road Archery Guys...
There just ain't no room for a Black Powder Guy no more...

 

[The Sicilian]

There is a difference between fact and theory...If you actually studied the available evidence instead of waving it off without a thought maybe you'd have a different idea about what really happened. Second, it doesn't get me throught the day, God and my family do. I love to shoot Bp revolvers and to think that we will always have that right is very....well, it's wishful thinking. Again, Texas Corridor, check it out, who's idea it was, who will build it and who will fund it. And in the end, who get's the revenue from it and what will it's use be?

I just don't get it, why so many people just don't give sh*t about their country anymore. They'd rather believe the lies they're being told by the television instead of searching out the truth themselves. The television was the single most devestating tool ever devised towards brainwashing mass amounts of people. If you don't see it on television it must not be true. Something can't be true or good unless some make-up wearning millionaire tells you so! Sheesh! I wish people would start putting the peices together. Do you support the "Patriot" Act Pohill? What about "Homeland" Security? Sounds a lot like "Fatherland" doesn't it?

Do you really think 19 terrorists from a cave in Afganistan really got through the worlds best watched skies? Why was NORAD told to stand down? Why were jets from Edwards AirForce base told to head out to sea? Why did the Vice President tell them to stand down? How about the slip-ups Rumsfeild made, like saying that the flight over P.A. was "Shot" down, then he quickly said he made a mistake? Fruedean slip? Yup! I think so. And what about building number 7, have you ever even heard of building number seven? It wasn't hit by anything yet it fell at 4:30p.m. that same day...Why? Do you know the name Silverstein? He was the guy who took out a 4.6 billion insurance policy on the two towers two months before the "terrorist" attack. I've got him on film (PBS) saying he told "them" to "Pull" building number 7 on September 11, 2001.

Do you know what "Pull a building" means in demolition circles? It means to blow up or implode a building. How can you wire and place explosives in a building in less than eight hours Pohill? It's impossible to do in a building of that size, or almost any size! It takes anywhere from two weeks to over a month to wire up a building for implosion. So how is it that building number seven was pre-wired before the attacks of September 11th? And why did FEMA arrive a day before the attacks occured? They didn't have any reason to be there at all yet they were there a day beforehand. Who was running security for the tower complex? Neil Bush, George Bush's brother, imagine that, and who reported as cheif security officer on September 11, 2001 apparently because they wanted him dead? The FBI agent Paul O'neil. They founbd him dead and without a scratch, how very odd, huh?

These are just a few things, I have much more convincing evidence. One peice being that 11 of the accused hi-jackers have been found alive, yes alive! Living in the middle east. When they saw there portraits on the television screen they became very scared and figured they better let people know they are alive before they became "dead" real quick. What hit the Pentagon? It wasn't any full-size passenger jet, that's for sure. Why did the FBI say no pictures of the impact existed even though the Pentagon is the most servailed peice of land on the whole earth? Not to mention releasing five blurry shots a year or so later and claiming them to be a jumbo jet! Amazingly insane! Anyone looking at those five clips cannot honestly see anything even resembling a plane, not to mention a jumbo jet full of passengers.

All and all the people of the United States (most of them) are either the stupidist people on earth (Possible?) or they've been brainwashed to believe whatever they're told, either that or they're plain scared to admit the truth to themselves and upset their pretty little perfect world. It must be true...ignorace is bliss! I wouldn't know because I still give a sh*t about freedom and truth, fighting against evil and wanting to live in a country that COULD Be the best in the world. Saying we've got the best thing going isn't enough. Things tend to be relative, it's the best compared to what? Britain? germany? South America? We're not truly free. We may have been at one time but not anymore. What will you do when they tell you that you can't shoot your guns anymore? What will you do when they shut down all of the shooting ranges across the country and outlaw the firing of firearms? And what will you do when they come for your guns?

 

[pohill]

Sicilian, I don't know how to respond to you without getting into a pissing contest that will last for days. I tried to make light of a subject that apparently consumes you, and it didn't work. To think that you are the only one concerned with losing freedoms, or the only one with an opinion, or the only one with the truth, is dangerous. Believe what you want to believe and so will I - the difference is that I will not insult your opinion or force mine down your throat. See the difference? We are not stupid people, nor are we brainwashed...is it possible that you are wrong?
As far as television - I consider myself an informed person, and I am very selective in what I watch, choosing only those programs that will enhance my understanding of the human condition: Family Guy, Malcolm In The Middle, Becker, PBS DooWop concerts...and the Red Sox when they win.

 

[The Sicilian]

I wasn't trying to get into a pissing contest Pohill, I just wanted to actually make you think about some of the major inconsistancies in the official story of 911. If you're offended then that's your rpoblem, deal with it. It doesn't consume me, making assumptions like that tend to piss people off, not the blatently obvious ones I made. If it's foolish to be aware of what's happening in my own country then I guess I'm a fool. I never said that I was the only one with the truth, you said that, not me. And it seems you don't really know much about the subject to rightly judge what really happened, that's why I was giving details.

If you actually knew anything about those horrible incidents then maybe you would have a different opinion, but you don't. I didn't call you stupid or brainwashed per say, but I did make a true generalization about the people that live in these United States. Again, if you don't like it, deal with it. Most of the things I said were not opinion anyway, they were facts. You either except facts for what they are or you fool yourself into believing something that is a lie. It's pretty simple and people do it everyday, it's called justification. They do it in order to live their life without having to think about the really important things, like truth and freedom.

I appreciate your humor, I really do, but there's a time for humor, and this wasn't it. If you don't care about these things then that's your business. I wasn't trying to shove anything down your throat. You responded to the posts, after all. On a personal level I don't think I'm smarter then everyone else but I do know that I'm more informed the most people in this country. This isn't talking myself up, I wish things were much different, but the sad truth is that our people are some of the sorriest people going now-a-days. If the truth hurts it ain't my fault, it's just the truth. Who's really being hard-headed, you or me?

I do apologize for things going this direction but I wasn't being negative towards you personally, at least not until you made personal remarks towards me, same as you did in another thread. Seems you have a problem playing nicely with the other kids in the sandbox? Maybe it's because your old and bitter, maybe not, who knows why, you know yourself better than I do. I've been pretty decent to everyone I've ever came in contact with on this forum and I've only had trouble with two guys, both of them older than me and both of them quick to anger. I thought maybe a few people might have liked to hear some things they may have not gotten a chance to hear through mainstream media sources. I thought maybe you would be open-minded enough to at least think about some of the information I was giving you. I guess I was wrong, as I sometimes am. As of this point I won't write anymore about the subject, back to never-never land...

 

[pohill]

Sicilian, I am not old (I'm probably younger than you) and I'm not bitter. Sometimes...sometimes I am quick to anger when dealing with simple minded, narrow minded people. Deal with it while you wait for the next Oliver Stone conspiracy movie to come out.

 

[The Sicilian]

Moving right along....I personally didn't care for the movie too much but the issue definitely needed to be pushed back into the thoughts of the people. Simple minded, huh? Took the low road, did you?

 

[mike101]

Fight Nice, Guys, Before Thread is Closed!

A friend of mine told me he saw something on some cable access channel he has in Hawaii, regarding a government conspiracy being responsible for 911.

He said he saw a film of the towers coming down, wherein a puff of smoke was visable, coming from between each floor, an instant before each floor collapsed, like when a building is imploded. Now, I try to keep an open mind, but that could have been the concrete and drywall rupturing from the weight. I haven't seen this film yet, but I'd sure like too.

He also mentioned that no plane wreckage was found around the big hole in the Pentagon. I thought about it, and come to think of it, I don't recall seeing any wreckage aroung the Pentagon, either. Hmmm.

I still think the CIA and Mafia killed JFK. Furthermore I don't think James Earl Ray had a damn thing to do with MLK's murder. I'm always up for a good conspiracy theory.

Is all of this in the Oliver Stone movie? Sicillian, is that where you saw it? The film my buddy saw was on TV a couple of months ago. I would like very much to see this film. I'd also like to see World Trade Center, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Hell, it will probably be on DVD in a couple of months.