Maryland Police officers serving 'red flag' gun seizure fatally shoot armed man

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The 2A is an individual right. However, it can be taken away from an individual for just cause.

The 1A is a group of individual rights. But the 1A does not protect libel and slander, nor does it protect religious practices to the point of beheading
"non-believers."

Dangerous, unacceptable conduct can cause any right to be taken away by the courts. Otherwise, we would have anarchy.
 
Law enforcement doesn’t have the resources to follow a lot of people around waiting for them to stop somewhere safe to pick them up and then take their weapons. Plus, it wasn’t a warrant for his arrest but rather enforcement of taking his guns.

One to get him outside the house might have had different results than the two that killed him inside his house. Maybe not though.
 
rpenmanparker, you would have us believe that "the people" is only a group right and not an individual right? That the meaning of the phrase changes from item to item in the first ten amendments? E.g., the First Amendment only applies to "the people" as a group?

We are to believe that the highly-educated writers of the Bill of Rights were inconsistent in the meanings of words and phrases?

Have you ever read the opinions expressed by such as Jefferson and Adams, the writers, about gun ownership?
No they were consistent in meaning people as a group had all of the rights. In my very sensible interpretation individuals have to remain members of the groups in good standing to qualify for the right. Being a convicted felon disqualifies an individual. That is okay because the group as a whole is not disqualified. Hence there is no violation of the Constitution. I should have been a constitutional lawyer instead of a chemist. I could have whipped this whole thing into shape in no time.
 
The 2A is an individual right. However, it can be taken away from an individual for just cause.

The 1A is a group of individual rights. But the 1A does not protect libel and slander, nor does it protect religious practices to the point of beheading

Dangerous, unacceptable conduct can cause any right to be taken away by the courts. Otherwise, we would have anarchy.
 
The actual text as well as the point of the 2A is not that it allows PERSONS to keep and bear arms, but rather that it allows THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms. One sensible interpretation of the Constitution is that 2A is not an individual right but rather a group right. The purpose of the amendment is fulfilled when there is general gun ownership. For the purposes of the 2A it does not require John Doe to be able to keep and bear a gun in light of obvious threat to other individuals or to the society at large. If a rare individual is deprived of their (supposed but actually not real) individual RKBA following due process, I do not see that as an Infringement of 2A so long as the PEOPLE in general enjoy the right of gun ownership.


If you believe the 2nd Amendment protects a group right rather than an individual right why didn’t the Founding Father’s write, “The right of the Militia to keep and bear arms” instead of the right of the people to keep and bear arms?
 
If you believe the 2nd Amendment protects a group right rather than an individual right why didn’t the Founding Father’s write, “The right of the Militia to keep and bear arms” instead of the right of the people to keep and bear arms?

What does any of this have to do with the militia????

You're going off track.
 
The actual text as well as the point of the 2A is not that it allows PERSONS to keep and bear arms, but rather that it allows THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms. One sensible interpretation of the Constitution is that 2A is not an individual right but rather a group right. The purpose of the amendment is fulfilled when there is general gun ownership. For the purposes of the 2A it does not require John Doe to be able to keep and bear a gun in light of obvious threat to other individuals or to the society at large. If a rare individual is deprived of their (supposed but actually not real) individual RKBA following due process, I do not see that as an Infringement of 2A so long as the PEOPLE in general enjoy the right of gun ownership.

When reading the U.S. Constitution, you must apply the language consistently THROUGHOUT the document. Thus, when the people are referred to in one clause, you must apply the same definition to each and every instance in the document.

For that reason, the Court's majority opinion in Heller nor MacDonald rejected your reasoning and their ruling is based firmly on how the word is used throughout the document such as the Tenth Amendment and "People" has always been interpreted as a synonym for individual rights. Collective rights are referred to via the states (the guarantee of the republican form of government for example). For example, your definition of people would make the right of assembly fit only for groups in the First Amendment and the 4th Amendment search and seizure provisions not applicable to individuals. Thus, the whole warrant provision would not literally make sense using your reading. It would also make void the right to vote for the House of Representative and the U.S. Senate along with killing any meaning of the 9th Amendment.

Scalia wrote the majority opinion and he is most careful with his historical and textual analysis. He has even written several books about the practice of deciphering what texts mean in a legal sense that are informative. For additional reference might also want to check out the English Bill of Rights from which our Bill of Rights is derived as well and Blackstone's Commentaries on the matter. In addition, the state constitutional protections that existed before the Convention also were interpreted as individual rights. None of them support the idea that it is a collective right.

BTW, that is why the high flown language of the former Soviet Union's constitution which appeared to grant freedom of speech, religion, etc. was routinely ignored is because these were collective rights of the people but belonged to no individual. Since punishment is individual, that meant that society possesses to right to terminate an individual's right on a whim. The better language for such things is a privilege rather than a right.

There is better historical support for the idea that states possess a collective right to form militia. However, as the Court's opinion in Heller notes, that consistently any such states' rights or limitations noted in the Constitution specifically refer to states and NOT people. Thus, the militia clause merely informs one of the reasons why the 2A is a necessary limit on the federal government (and applied later to the states via the 14th Amendment's fundamental freedoms due process jurisprudence.) Should be via privileges and immunities clause but that is an argument for another day and a change in Supreme Court's Slaughterhouse interpretation.

This is from the Court's syllabus of Heller,

" 1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment . Pp. 28–30.

(d) The Second Amendment ’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.

(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.

(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54."

Thus, whatever the states may do, the Supreme Court has declared the right of the people to bear arms as an INDIVIDUAL right.
 
BTW background checks, which I support, are a good example of how this group/individual thing works. Passing the background check essentially stipulates that the gun buyer is a member of the group which possesses RKBA. Failing it makes them a disqualified individual. Once again it would be harder to justify disqualifying someone if 2A said that every PERSON had the RKBA. A fundamentalist interpretation of that would be that no exceptions could be allowed. With the PEOPLE wording I see a loophole in the reasoning to allow disqualifications.

Classic example is Germany in the 1930's.

Non-Aryans were not part of the "group" so they were disqualified from owning firearms.

What you support is requiring the individual to receive permission from the Government to own a firearm. Since the Government is the sole authority the 2A is meaningless. Individuals and groups can be denied the privilege (it is no longer a right according to you) at the whim of whoever controls the Government. Sadly our Government has a long history of doing just that and currently are still doing it.
 
Classic example is Germany in the 1930's.

Non-Aryans were not part of the "group" so they were disqualified from owning firearms.

What you support is requiring the individual to receive permission from the Government to own a firearm. Since the Government is the sole authority the 2A is meaningless. Individuals and groups can be denied the privilege (it is no longer a right according to you) at the whim of whoever controls the Government. Sadly our Government has a long history of doing just that and currently are still doing it.
You are being melodramatic. Of course in an open society like the USA one would automatically be a member of the group, one of the "people" unless there were extenuating circumstances such as a felony conviction or other disqualifying characteristic. If you want no limit whatsoever to who can own firearms, just say so. Whether by my rationale or yours, the government can just as easily move to limit ownership for the very same reasons. Witness our current restrictions.
 
So did they take the guns?

If the goal was safety for the family the guns should’ve been left, if the goal is confiscation they kill the guy and take the guns
 
When reading the U.S. Constitution, you must apply the language consistently THROUGHOUT the document. Thus, when the people are referred to in one clause, you must apply the same definition to each and every instance in the document.

For that reason, the Court's majority opinion in Heller nor MacDonald rejected your reasoning and their ruling is based firmly on how the word is used throughout the document such as the Tenth Amendment and "People" has always been interpreted as a synonym for individual rights. Collective rights are referred to via the states (the guarantee of the republican form of government for example). For example, your definition of people would make the right of assembly fit only for groups in the First Amendment and the 4th Amendment search and seizure provisions not applicable to individuals. Thus, the whole warrant provision would not literally make sense using your reading. It would also make void the right to vote for the House of Representative and the U.S. Senate along with killing any meaning of the 9th Amendment.

Scalia wrote the majority opinion and he is most careful with his historical and textual analysis. He has even written several books about the practice of deciphering what texts mean in a legal sense that are informative. For additional reference might also want to check out the English Bill of Rights from which our Bill of Rights is derived as well and Blackstone's Commentaries on the matter. In addition, the state constitutional protections that existed before the Convention also were interpreted as individual rights. None of them support the idea that it is a collective right.

BTW, that is why the high flown language of the former Soviet Union's constitution which appeared to grant freedom of speech, religion, etc. was routinely ignored is because these were collective rights of the people but belonged to no individual. Since punishment is individual, that meant that society possesses to right to terminate an individual's right on a whim. The better language for such things is a privilege rather than a right.

There is better historical support for the idea that states possess a collective right to form militia. However, as the Court's opinion in Heller notes, that consistently any such states' rights or limitations noted in the Constitution specifically refer to states and NOT people. Thus, the militia clause merely informs one of the reasons why the 2A is a necessary limit on the federal government (and applied later to the states via the 14th Amendment's fundamental freedoms due process jurisprudence.) Should be via privileges and immunities clause but that is an argument for another day and a change in Supreme Court's Slaughterhouse interpretation.

This is from the Court's syllabus of Heller,

" 1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment . Pp. 28–30.

(d) The Second Amendment ’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.

(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.

(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54."

Thus, whatever the states may do, the Supreme Court has declared the right of the people to bear arms as an INDIVIDUAL right.
You are totally misconstruing the meaning of group and bending my rationale into an argument with your position that does not exist. And for God's sake just get off the militia thing. I am not talking about militias. And people is consistently used throughout the Constitution just as you say it should be. In this context I do not mean for group to refer to people assembling or doing anything as a group. By group I mean the set (mathematical term) of individuals who share a characteristic, in this case the certain right(s). Folks who are excluded from the right for a bona fide reason are not members of that set of people, i.e. not members of the group. They don't have the right(s). If you insist on calling it an individual right, go for it. It makes no difference. I am simply pointing out that my interpretation better delineates a basis for deciding who shall enjoy a right and who shall not. It provides a framework for protecting the sanctity of the right while still exercising some discretion regarding forbidding it to certain people.
 
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If you believe the 2nd Amendment protects a group right rather than an individual right why didn’t the Founding Father’s write, “The right of the Militia to keep and bear arms” instead of the right of the people to keep and bear arms?

This militia thing is really tedious. Can you not let it go? My side of the discussion is not talking about militias and such types of groups. Group just means all the people who share in the right being discussed. That makes it clear that there are two kinds of people. People who have the right (the group) and people who do not (individuals who lie outside the group for some legitimate reason).
 
You are totally misconstruing the meaning of group and bending my rationale into an argument with your position that does not exist. And for God's sake just get off the militia thing. I am not talking about militias. And people is consistently used throughout the Constitution just as you say it should be. In this context I do not mean for group to refer to people assembling or doing anything as a group. By group I mean the set (mathematical term) of individuals who share a characteristic, in this case the certain right(s). Folks who are excluded from the right for a bona fide reason are not members of that set of people, i.e. not members of the group. They don't have the right(s). If you insist on calling it an individual right, go for it. It makes no difference. I am simply pointing out that my interpretation better delineates a basis for deciding who shall enjoy a right and who shall not.

You might want to actually read Heller and MacDonald which quite nicely delineate the difference between your wording and the court's. It is settled law that the right to bear arms accrues to individuals, not a group or collection of groups even in hostile jurisdictions such as the 1st, 2nd, and 9th. Thus, the deprive someone of an individual right requires due process and the amount of process due depends on the degree of deprivation, the risk of an erroneous decision, and the interests of government efficiency (see Mathews v. Eldridge).

Thus, you can't say that this group or that group does not deserve the right without requiring due process to deprive an individual person of that right. Bona fide reasons are not the requirement but due process is.

If you are trying to say that no right is absolute, then you did not effectively do so. I agree that no right is absolute, however, what you said is that people=collective right. That means that individuals do not possess the right and society can via majoritarian or other processes deprive someone of that right.

If you want to know why words matter and how to interpret them, then do the necessary reading either of caselaw or legal treatises.

I suggest any of the books by Stephen Halbrook regarding the 2A and its legal history or Scalia's Reading Law: The Interpretation of Legal Texts. Or you could skip that and just read Nunn v. State.
 
You might want to actually read Heller and MacDonald which quite nicely delineate the difference between your wording and the court's. It is settled law that the right to bear arms accrues to individuals, not a group or collection of groups even in hostile jurisdictions such as the 1st, 2nd, and 9th. Thus, the deprive someone of an individual right requires due process and the amount of process due depends on the degree of deprivation, the risk of an erroneous decision, and the interests of government efficiency (see Mathews v. Eldridge).

Thus, you can't say that this group or that group does not deserve the right without requiring due process to deprive an individual person of that right. Bona fide reasons are not the requirement but due process is.

If you are trying to say that no right is absolute, then you did not effectively do so. I agree that no right is absolute, however, what you said is that people=collective right. That means that individuals do not possess the right and society can via majoritarian or other processes deprive someone of that right.

If you want to know why words matter and how to interpret them, then do the necessary reading either of caselaw or legal treatises.

I suggest any of the books by Stephen Halbrook regarding the 2A and its legal history or Scalia's Reading Law: The Interpretation of Legal Texts. Or you could skip that and just read Nunn v. State.

See post #23.:D
 
We are drifting way off topic here.
Let's get back to the issue, which is the "red flag" component of the original story.
 
I'm not posting to offer an opinion on "Red Flag" as it differs from state to state. I'm posting to address some questions of how police actions such as this one are commonly conducted.

In my state, it is common to ask that firearms be removed from the residence when there has been allegations of domestic violence. As I understand it, Red Flag broadens the relationship requirement for that request. Firearm removal isn't conducted only on a request, but only after a Court Hearing has been conducted where the Respondent has an opportunity to be heard before the judge rules on the facts of the issue.

The article says that the order was requested by his sister (could be sister-in-law based on the article). I wonder if she still thinks that was the right thing to do.
Why are in-laws so often demonized. In the linked article, it says that he lived above the residence's garage and that "family" lived in the house. The person who spoke to the reporter was his niece who identified the complainant as her aunt.

I would think that for a family member...possibly living the the adjoining residence...to go to the work of filing a complaint of this nature, it would have progressed beyond "harsh words"; but the article is lacking in details. How much fear would someone have to be in to ask the courts in intervene and disarm them

I am confused, why serve something like this when they did? Why not do it in the light of day? Why do it when the normal reaction of a knock on the door is to alarm someone? If it was that hot of an issue, which I doubt, because I really don't think they got a judge out of bed at that hour, with only two officers?
They didn't get a judge out of bed at that hour. He likely signed the order at the end of the previous Court day.

The officers attempted to contact the victim the previous evening,"Sunday Night" . The article doesn't say what occurred at that time, but obviously they were unable to take custody of the firearms. It is likely that they were told, as was told to the reporter, that the victim, “wouldn’t hurt anybody.” Given the circumstances, there would be no reason to have additional officers...certainly not SWAT...respond for this call.

These kinds of calls aren't usually conducted "in the light of day" because most folks aren't home at that time.
 
I have no quarrel with anyone answering the door with a gun in their hand; I might not make that choice, but it's a harmless enough choice to make in the privacy of your own home.

At 5:30 in the a.m., if you knock on my door, I'm going to come to the door without turning on a light in the house, and there will be a gun in my hand until I flip on the porch light and identify whosoever is knocking at that ungodly hour. No unexpected knocks are good news at 5 a.m. in my rural area of the country...I have no family close around to break those norms.
 
At 5:30 in the a.m., if you knock on my door, I'm going to come to the door without turning on a light in the house, and there will be a gun in my hand until I flip on the porch light and identify whosoever is knocking at that ungodly hour. No unexpected knocks are good news at 5 a.m. in my rural area of the country...I have no family close around to break those norms.


I told my wife never open the door for anyone if I’m not there. Answer the door with a gun and if they need 911 tell them you’ll call for them.
 
Here is the problem to me. If someone is judged to be risking imminent serious harm to himself or others, then the government should have this person committed for mental evaluation and treatment by experts and a hearing with attorney for the individual provided and witnesses to the specified behavior. If the person is dangerous, then they can simply change the means of violence via kitchen knives, arson, vehicles, even baseball bats. A pre-existing procedure exists to resolve the problem of potentially dangerous individuals apart from this new law with minimal due process. But, we, as a society, perpetually believe that one more additional law will make us safer while ignoring the costs of deprivation and risks of enforcement.

As usual, the police then have the thankless tasks of bearing the brunt of enforcing these laws and will accrue all of the blame for them. My rule for new laws is whether I am willing to allow the government to use deadly force to enforce such a law. If not, then no arrest, only a citation with a summons as the maximum.
 
i don't have a problem with this one. There is a message here: Don't fight police.

Who can file for an extreme risk restraining order under the Maryland "red flag" law?

  • Law enforcement
  • Health professional
  • Spouse or family member
  • Someone the person is dating or has children with
  • Current or former legal guardian

What happened?

1. A family member filed for a restraining order.

2. A judge ordered the mans guns confiscated.

3. Police went to confiscate guns.

4. Subject answered the door with a gun.

5. Subject fought police and fired the gun.

6. It ended badly for the subject.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/...-know-marylands-red-flag-gun-law/65-598387522
 
So was the guy a violent criminal, prior to the incident, or did the government's actions make him one? If what the government did was right, would it have been just as right for the guy's family to do exactly the same thing for exactly the same reasons?
 
The government needs to account for each firearm and post a bond for each one, and the individual needs to be able to decide if he wants the firearm back or would rather keep the money. Just taking property of significant value is theft.
 
Red flag is not a "deep dark conspiracy" to take your guns.

Quite the contrary. It isn't perfect, but it's a good stop-gap measure until the individual can either seek treatment voluntarily, be ordered into treatment by a court, or possibly take the government to court and ask for the Red Flag order to be vacated.
 
It is still taking valuable property without compensation. Just because it is a "good stop-gap measure", ordered by a judge and caried out by law enforcement officers, doesn't mean that the individual doesn't need to be compensated for the property which was taken. This "good stop-gap measure" may not be a deep dark conspiracy, but this is a right gauranteed in the Bill of Rights, and a personal property issue. Until the individual is given the opportuinity to "ask the court for the Red Flag order to be vacted" (or given due process in the face of his civil rights being violated), he needs to be compensated for what is taken, even when taking the unstained motives of the government into account.
 
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