match bullets and hunting...

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Z

~z

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Just curious to find if others have used Sierras HPBT Match bullets for hunting. I have not found much wrong with them in the applications I have put them through. The .224 52gners are fairly explosive on p-dogs (minimize ricochets) and on up to the .308 220gn big boys for large hogs. The .257s, 6, 6.5, and 7mms have all served me well for deer and deer shaped critters. These bullets have provided numerous ethical kills on varmint and game up to mule deer and 500 + # hogs. I realize there are many many bullets out there designed for hunting and I have tried a vast majority of them. I have simply been repeatedly impressed with the accuracy and performance of the HPBT Match bullets. Am I in the minority here? Not trying to start a debate about how my bullet is better than yours, just curious if others have found this to be true.
~z
 
I know some hunters use the Match King for hunting but I get nearly the same accuracy with Game Kings and don't want to risk a lost deer with a bullet that I don't think is a good hunting bullet.
 
You are definitely in the minority however I kind of agree with you. I have never used them for big game hunting but use them for varmints. As far as large game is concerned, I probably wouldn't try .22 caliber match bullets since there is so little substance to them that if they fragmented, they might not make it to vital structures. If I were going to try match bullets for large game, I would probably first see how the .30 caliber versions performed.

I appreciate the post by someone with actual experience with them.
 
Match bullets are for paper. I'll stick with hunting bullets for hunting. I like Nosler ballistic tips, great accuracy. The Game Kings are hard to beat. I have a load in .257 roberts, 100 grain GK, shoots 3/4 moa. How accurate does it have to be???? Nosler Partitions and Barnes X bullets have done well for me and kill quickly and penetrate thoroughly.

I've never even fired a match bullet except the 150 7mm match king out of a TC barrel in 7mm TCU. This was my IHMSA load when I went through that phase. :D Worked well on steel rams, but for real rams I'd go to game kings, thanks.
 
There is not enough difference in accuracy between the Match King and the Game King to justify taking a chance on non-expansion of a Match King.

I've been using Sierra bullets since at least 1971 or 1972, mas o menos. I've always been able to get five-shot groups inside one MOA. 5/8 MOA with the 85-grain HPBT in .243.

Art
 
The fact is, that in the .30 cal. and .22 cal. guns I shoot, match bullets are more accurate by at least 1/2 MOA than any hunting bullet I've been able to find. You are afraid a match bullet won't expand? A lightly constructed hollow point bullet not expanding??? I thought the concern would be too rapid expansion and lack of penetration.

Expansion is overrated anyway. I'll take penetration over expansion any day. Why is it that in hunting Cape Buffalo, a common practice is to shoot first with an expanding bullet and take subsequent shots with solids? Is it because nonexpanding solids are less lethal? Why are solids used on elephant when they will fail to expand?
 
Plenty of deer have been killed with a .22 rimfire. Doesn't mean it's the best all around caliber for deer.

Way, way back I used MK's for groundhogs in a 22-250. Sometimes they'd blow up, sometimes they'd zip thru and leave a wounded animal. Maybe they're different now. I use Nosler BT's in my 22-250 and 223. Accuracy is exceptional along with the performance. No need for anything else for me.
Expansion is overrated anyway. I'll take penetration over expansion any day.
Click to expand...
Hit a coyote, deer, whatever in the lungs with a non-expanding bullet (at least something in the .22-25 caliber range) and you'll probably never get the animal
Why is it that in hunting Cape Buffalo, a common practice is to shoot first with an expanding bullet and take subsequent shots with solids?
Click to expand...
Uh....IMO, the deer (at least around here) are somewhat smaller and not quite as tough as a buff. Different program, different firearm. I've killed maybe 50 deer. I've seen them take a solid whack from a 12 gauge slug or .454 Casull and keep right on going. IMO, you need all the help you can get.
 
/* match bullets are more accurate by at least 1/2 MOA than any hunting bullet I've been able to find*/

1/2 MOA reduction is great for prairie dogs, but I don't know if a rifle needs to be under 2 MOA accuracy for big game, certainly not if you are trading terminal performance for it.

/*I'll take penetration over expansion any day.*/

Fortunately, their are dozens, if not hundreds, of bullets for game where you don't have to make that choice.

Although recovered bullets obviously mean they came from a successfully brought to bag game animal, I prefer big game bullets to penetrate the animal completely and leave an exit wound. A bullet that doesn't do that regularly tells me it (or the load) didn't have what it takes to finish the job and make an exit wound.
 
When Sierra, the bullet maker, does not recommend the Match King for hunting, only for target shooting, I would listen to the manufacturer. They know how their bullets will perform and what they were made for. I don't believe many large game animals were shot at and missed because of 1/2 MOA.
 
DON'T.

Super accuracy is important, but not as important as controlled expansion is.

The gilding metal around the legendary MatchKing is designed to be perfectly concentric for exact accuracy. It is NOT designed to control the expansion of the bullet upon impact. In fact, the "jacket" is really just a thin coating of copper on the MatchKing, and does little to hold the bullet together.

Consider the GameKing.

In 1953, the GameKing was used to win the 1000 yard Wimbeldon Cup. Trust me-- in the field, on living targets, the MatchKing has NO advantage over the GameKing.
 
Well, if a bullet "zips through" and doesn't kill the animal then it didn't zip through in the right place. If you put a hole in the brain, heart or a major blood vessel, in all likelihood the animal will die promptly whether or not the bullet expands. This has been amply demonstrated by the hunters of Bison (with solid lead bullets), Cape Buffalo and Elephant. If you don't think the same principle applies to to deer and groundhogs, you are entitled to your opinion however illogical it is.

The lungs are a somewhat different matter. If only one lung was penetrated, then the animal might live with one functioning lung. A small hole could conceivably heal and the lung re-expand. A hole through both lungs would cause both lungs to collapse (whether with a solid or expanding bullet) and the animal would die. The advantage of an expanding bullet, is more damage from hemorrhage; with enough hemorrhage in one lung the animal will die.

As I said before, the problem I see with match bullets is not to "zip through" without expanding but a problem with too rapid expansion and failure to reach vital organs and leaving a wounded animal.

Do you believe everything bullet manufacturers say? If you believe them you would only buy premium bullets which gives them a very good profit margin.

As far as accuracy is concerned, my experience has been best accuracy with match bullets and not with Game Kings. It's possible with some guns and loads this would be different.
 
Well, the Indiana DNR makes it illegal to hunt with jacketed non-expanding bullets. Guess that ought to count for something...like not being fined or going to jail.

Just seems to make sense that hunting bullets are for hunting and match bullets are for matches.
 
/*If you don't think the same principle applies to to deer and groundhogs, you are entitled to your opinion however illogical it is.*/

My "illogical opinion" came from tagging more deer than I can remember, and butchering more deer than I care to remember, and lost and found deer over the years. We have what basically boils down to unlimited permits in Nebraska, and it is not unheard of to fill two or three permits a day with a high powered rifle, or even a muzzleloader or bow.

You yourself described the reason you shouldn't use a bullet not made for controlled expansion, a one lung hit. I guess if you are planning on being lucky enough never to have this happen, you can exclude it this scenario, along with a grazing spine hit, a liver shot, a shot that misses the heart and lungs but punctures the diaphragm, and probably a half dozen more scenarios I haven't mentioned.

As for the 19th century buffalo hunters (yes, they are bison, but the guys shooting them were called "buffalo" hunters), I think the reason they didn't use Swift A Frames, Nosler Partitions, or Remington Cor-Lokts had to do with hunting in the mid to latter 19th century instead of the 21st century. Their scores were racked up DESPITE using cast solid bullets, not because of them.

The only reason those who hunt XXL game with solids is that they can't find a way to reliably get any expanding bullet to the vitals. This isn't a problem on deer, elk, and hogs. We have hundreds of different big game bullets that will do so on these animals.

Why take the chance of using Match Kings? It's like eating raw meat, you can prove it can be done, but is it worth the risk?
 
Let me point out that a hollow point match bullet IS an expanding bullet and therefore would apparently be legal for hunting in Indiana.

Ahhh. Then there is the bullet getting to the vitals. We agree on that. A bullet needs to get to the vitals. As I said before, I have never used match bullets on big game but NOT for fear of their not expanding but because rapid expansion might cause a superficial wound and failure to penetrate into vital organs. An expanding bullet would be of benefit with a one lung hit but an unexpanding bullet would be more likely to go through both lungs.

I also think it's interesting that someone has used match bullets on big game and has had good success with them.
 
Grumulkin, if you are talking about me with the “success with match bullets on big game”, let me point out 95% of my use of these bullets is on thin shinned and deer shaped critters. Not really “big game”. However, I have used them (.308 220gn Matchkings) on some pretty big hogs. 300WM platform, zipping them at close to 2950fps. I have not recovered one of these bullets, all have been through and through, however the wound channel indicates ample expansion.

I realize this is not the intended use of these bullets, I’m not advocating the use of them, I’m just documenting my results and wondering if anyone else has previous experience that they would care to share.
~z
 
If you use SMK's for deer, go for a double lung shot. They will expand and the animal will die. Sierra didn't make them for this purpose, but they will work when used wisely.
As far as one advantage of and SMK over SGK, the SMK with it's higher BC does give you more room for wind calls being slightly off at longer ranges.
I believe that the combo of exceptional accuracy in many rigs, higher BC's and a good record on thin skinned game (double lung shots) is why some use them religiously. Last year for the first time between my 16 yr. old daughter and myself, we killed 2 bucks and 1 doe with SMK's. All were double lung shots.
Ranges were 125 yards (Approx.), and the 250 and 350 yard shots were lazered. Three deer are by no means proving anything statistically, but in this case all fully pentrated and expanded with good wound channels. All animals went down within 20-30 yards of the shot.
Cartridges used in order of distances above 6.5-284 (142 SMK), 6mm-284 (115 DTAC-made by Sierra), and 6.5x57R (142 SMK).
All three of the guns were specialty handguns using Burris Optics with their Ballistic Plex reticle. She made the two longer shots.
I have also killed a couple of whitetails with 140 A-Max's in a 6.5-284 XP-100.
 
~z,

A 220 grain match bullet from a .300 Winchester Magnum on a hog could expand very well and penetrate thoroughly. If they do it every time for you, then you have nothing to worry about. I'm not sure why you used a 220 grain match bullet in the first place, I guess I am curious as to why, since hog hunting usually doesn't require much long range shooting.

I have two experiences with Match bullets on deer:

An 80 grain BTHP from a 6mm Remington, broadside at 60 yards on a mature doe. It hit the liver, and trotted away, found dead, 50 yards from where shot, no blood trail in knee deep snow, but followed as a "I don't know how I missed" precaution. Bullet seemed to have drilled through with no expansion. I shot this one 20 some years ago, I can't recall the brand of bullet, but I think it was a Norma.

A 52 grain Hornady from a .22 CHeetah at approximately 100 yards at a smaller buck. Dropped the deer, but did not kill it. A finishing shot needed. Bullet didn't exit from the neck. Shot by a friend.

I used the same 80 grain bullet from the same Model 788 6mm to shoot my first coyote, hitting it through the ribs, putting it down, though it resurrected itself, and requiring a .22 pistol shot to the head. Again, I don't know which bullet, but it was probably a Norma. Those things seemed to be drill bits.

Not enough, I know, to make sweeping conclusions, but enough to convince me not to experiment on game any longer, without a good reason to justify it.
 
bowfin, not all hog hunting is close quarters. These bullets (220s) went up on a hill top with me. Not "long range" by most standards, but I know how the load will act at twice the distance I applied them.
This is my long range windy day "betcha I can hit that rock waaaay over there" because I have layed down behind this set up a time or two sorta loading recipe.
~z
 
Controlled expansion is the proper phrase. You don't need much technology to do that on medium game. Deer can be throughly penetrated with a 100 grain .257" game king, trust me.

Now, Grumulkin, don't know how much deer or other big game hunting you've done, but anyone that tells me to take "head shots" or "neck shots", I just have to laugh. You go for the broadside. You're shooting from field positions, from sometimes a pretty good range. I've made shots at 350 yards on both mule deer and coyotes. I don't do head shots, shoot for shoulder on a broad side if possible, biggest target. A proper performing bullet will destroy lungs and leave a 50 cent size hole on exit. The deer will pile up in his tracks. I've had a 7mm Rem Mag with 150 grain Game King at 3150 fps take the whole off side shoulder off a deer at 50 yards. There wasn't a lung left just from the shock of the bullet as it expanded and dumped some of that 3300 ft lbs on target. I was shocked when I opened that deer up. :what: NO LUNGS! Never seen that before. WOW. I don't use that load or gun on deer anymore, too much meat damage. Even the on side shoulder was bloodshot on that deer. The off side was hanging by tendons! Now, had that bullet zipped through, dumped little energy, I might have been chasing a small blood trail that afternoon. It's happened before when a bullet failed to expand on another deer. I found him, fortunately. I decided not to use Hornady 117 grain interlocks in that .257 after that, better expansion and performance on deer with the 100 grain Sierra Game King.

Now days on any heavier game than deer, I use Barnes or Nosler Partition controlled expansion bullets. I don't see any reason to use anything else for hunting. Yeah, the controlled expansion bullets are more expensive than normal bullets, but so what? Just how many do you fire hunting, anyway? I can get 50 rounds of Barnes X bullets for about what a hundred rounds of game kings cost.
 
~Z,

I think you would have to get out past 600 yards before the Match bullets start showing a sizeable advantage in wind drift or trajectory, being launched at the same velocity, but maybe not.

Federal shows a 190 grain Sierra MatchKing beating a 180 grain Nosler Solid Base Boat Tail by .9" at 500 yards in a .300 Winchester Magnum. Myself, I can't pinpoint which part of a deer is best to hit within .9" of an inch at 25 yards, so I can't see myself choosing a Match bullet's wind bucking abilities as a big enough advantage to try them on game.
 
The Game King is a boat tail bullet with a good ballistic coefficient. That's the major factor, and muzzle velocity, in wind drift as well as drop. I don't have the ballistic coefficient for the Sierra 150 .284" match king handy, but it's not very far off the .532 for the game king equivalent, which is very good BTW. If it's any better, it's not enough to make a real difference at hunting distances.
 
This should really be a no brainer. Sierra Matchkings are designed for target shooting, not hunting. The jacket is too thin to be reliable for hunting larger animals than varmits. This would result in rapid expansion or even desintegration of the bullet before it did much damage.

I've seen 223's and Swifts kill deer before. I've also seen them wound and lose deer before. The one deer I autopsied after being shot (by a friend) with the Swift was very telling. The bullet penetrated the skin, only to be completely destroyed as it hit the shoulder. The deer dropped in its tracks, so this should seem like a recommendation of the caliber, but this was a lucky situation. The reason that the deer died was because that shoulder turned into a grenade and destroyed the heart and lungs.

To me, that is completely unacceptable. I didn't have a scale with me, but I would estimate that the bullet fragment that I found in the middle of the body cavity was no more than 20-25% of the original weight.

Will they work? Sure. But how often? 25%, 50%, 75%, 95%? None of those are acceptable numbers. If shot placement is adequate, and a bullet fails to do its job, find another bullet.

BTW, the reason that you use solids on buffalo/elephants, is because you are hunting an animal that weighs more than the vehicle your in, and twice as mean as your mother in law. The goal is to break bones on these animals. A quick, clean kill is important, but so is walking away from the hunt, and not becoming the hunted.

Regards,

Stinger
 
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