Max Charge, Low Velocity

[himfeld]

22" Ruger 77 30-06. New to it, but worked up a combo of 3 bullets and 3 powders at mid book range of powder. Reloder 19 and IMR 4350 shined with RL19 a tad better. I then played with seating depth with the chosen bullet/powder. Then I did a ladder. I'm in California, so Barnes TTSX, Nosler E-tip, and Hornady GMX. Barnes was best and E-tip not too far behind. Seated at 0.090". Charges 58.5 (2589fps), 59.0 (2618), 59.5 (2617), 60.0 max (2676). Barnes published 2644 fps to 2859 fps (24" barrel). Started to flatten primers and about 200 fps from published at max. So, tried a Nosler E-tip with IMR 4350. 55.8 (2676), 56.4 (2676), 57.0 max (2741). Nosler published (24" barrel) 2602 to 2832. Better, but still 100 fps slow. And pressure signs with the E-tip at 57.0 (had to de-cap, but primers slid out too easily). Also, both powders had noticeable muzzle blast. I even had neighbors at the range ask what the hell I was shooting. I was thinking the bullet was leaving the barrel before all the powder burned. They are both better than 1.5" groups (had an RL19 Barnes 168 TTSX group at 0.4" but only 2600 fps).
So, IMR 4064 is a bit faster and it is Barnes' accuracy pick. Seated to Barnes book spec (0.160" for my rifle). 46.5 (2614), 47.0 (2649), 47.5 (2673), 48.0 (2695), 48.5 (2718), 49.0 (2778), 49.5 (2793), 50.0 (2828), 50.5 (2817), and 51.0 (2846). The Standard Deviation at 49.0 was 8.1. And still at 10.1 at 49.5 and 11.6 with 50.0. 49, 49.5, and 50 grouped at 1" or better. No pressure signs on case, but the drop in velocity at 50.5 and the SD jumped (pressure signs?). Published max is 2801.
Pretty happy with IMR 4064, but I plan to try Varget and (if I get a hold of) RL15.5. I have Big Game too.
Seems a faster powder did the trick.
Am I right in thinking the 4350 range of powders is too slow for MY rifle?

 

[Shooterbob]

Load for accuracy not fps first your barrel is 2 inches shorter and some manuals use universal recivers not factory rifles

 

[AJC1]

I'm curious if monos develop the same speed based on the higher resistance and not operating. Never tried them yet but the ttsx looks nice.

 

[edwardware]

Started to flatten primers and about 200 fps from published at max. . . but still 100 fps slow. And pressure signs with the E-tip. . .

And the is normal, and not the least bit surprising.

Manual peak velocity IS NOT an indication of peak pressure. It is common to see +/-100fps vs the manual with the same length barrel and same components, simply for the differences in rifling and chambering. 200fps isn't that unusual.

Stop looking at velocity, and put the chronograph away. Get it back out when you're studying SD, because that's what it's for.

 

[himfeld]

Load for accuracy not fps first your barrel is 2 inches shorter and some manuals use universal recivers not factory rifles

Agreed. But there is nothing wrong with both if you can find it.

 

[someguy2800]

Each gun and powder and bullet combo are a rule onto themselves. Sometimes you get more than the load book says, sometimes you get less, sometimes you run into pressure before the max listed loads, sometimes you don't.

 

[himfeld]

I'm curious if monos develop the same speed based on the higher resistance and not operating. Never tried them yet but the ttsx looks nice.

Have done work with 3 of my rifles and Barnes is the best in all. GMX, not so much.

 

[himfeld]

Each gun and powder and bullet combo are a rule onto themselves. Sometimes you get more than the load book says, sometimes you get less, sometimes you run into pressure before the max listed loads, sometimes you don't.

And I'm learning that that is the fun

 

[AJC1]

Have done work with 3 of my rifles and Barnes is the best in all. GMX, not so much.

The hornaday solids have not impressed me in any of the load development videos I watch. The barnes and Lehigh defense seem better.

 

[bfoosh006]

FYI, from the Barnes website. And I would expect this would apply to all solid copper bullets

Where do I seat the TSX, Tipped TSX and LRX bullets?


When loading a Barnes TSX, Tipped TSX or LRX bullet, your rifle may prefer a bullet jump of anywhere between .050” up to .250” or more. This distance off the lands (rifling), aka “jump” may be limited to the rifles throat length, magazine length and bullet length.

When selecting the cartridge overall length (COAL) we recommend starting with a minimum “jump” of .050” off of the lands. You can test different seating depths and find a “sweet spot” that your particular firearm prefers. We suggest working in at least .025” increments as follows seating the bullet deeper to allow a further jump. Your test plan could look something like this:

1st group- .050” jump
2nd group- .075” jump
3rd group- .100” jump
4th group- .125” jump
5th group- .150“ jump
6th group- * see below

This length can be determined by using a “Stoney Point Gauge” or other methods. You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the cannelure rings. Remember there are many factors that may control or limit the seating depth for your application. You may find that you need to start at around 0.150” off the lands and are not able to get any closer due to limiting factors including proper neck tension and magazine length.

*In rifles that have long throats you may be limited on how close you are able to get the bullet to the lands. In these instances, it is not uncommon to find the best accuracy with a jump of .200” or more.

This jump may possibly stay the same regardless of powder or charge weight within a given rifle. If preferred accuracy is not obtained, we certainly recommend trying another powder, for the powder type and charge greatly affects the overall accuracy of each individual firearm.

FYI- An accurate load requires a bullet with the proper consistent case neck tension which leads to more constant pressures and velocities.

 

[.308 Norma]

22" Ruger 77 30-06.

Am I right in thinking the 4350 range of powders is too slow for MY rifle?

I don't have the data sitting in front of me, but all I've ever burned in my own Ruger 77 (tang safety, 22" barrel) is IMR 4350. I kick 165gr Hdy SPBTs out at just over 2800fps, 3 of them go in about an inch at 100, and they're deadly on mule deer - clear out to an honest to goodness 460 (my longest shot ever) yards.

 

[himfeld]

FYI, from the Barnes website. And I would expect this would apply to all solid copper bullets

Where do I seat the TSX, Tipped TSX and LRX bullets?



FYI- An accurate load requires a bullet with the proper consistent case neck tension which leads to more constant pressures and velocities.

Thanks bfoosh006. I did test seating depth with the RL19 load. This rifle likes between 0.080" and 0.100". Maybe my logic was wrong, and I am second guessing myself, but I used Barnes' book call to test a new powder. Using a Hornady comparator, that call is 0.160" off the lands in my rifle. I will do another seating depth test with IMR 4064. Curious if the different powder affects seating depth.
I have a Lee die set in '06 and use the factory crimp.

 

[AJC1]

Thanks bfoosh006. I did test seating depth with the RL19 load. This rifle likes between 0.080" and 0.100". Maybe my logic was wrong, and I am second guessing myself, but I used Barnes' book call to test a new powder. Using a Hornady comparator, that call is 0.160" off the lands in my rifle. I will do another seating depth test with IMR 4064. Curious if the different powder affects seating depth.
I have a Lee die set in '06 and use the factory crimp.

Unless your running a semiautomatic I would use neck tension to hold the bullet and ditch the crimp. If you get any bullet movements, polish down your expander with scotchbrite for a minute or so. With a micrometer you should be able to take .0003 or so off at a time.

 

[jmr40]

Bullet weight? I assume 165gr. Breaking the post up into smaller paragraphs make it much easier to read and understand too.

In the same bullet weight copper bullets are longer with more surface area in contact with the barrel so that changes some things. Plus, they seem to shoot better with more bullet jump. This means they have to be seated pretty deep, which limits room for powder.

Which is part of the reason why with copper it is usually best to drop down to a lighter bullet and concentrate on speed. A Barnes copper 130 gr 30 caliber bullet will just about match a conventional 180 gr 30 caliber bullet for penetration. Those bullets perform best if they leave the barrel at around 3000 fps. 165's are borderline too heavy for 30-06. I'd go no heavier than 150's and save the 165's and 180's for magnums.

No two rifles, even with the same barrel length, will get the same velocity with ammo from the same box. You could just have a "slow" barrel. I have 2 rifles in 30-06 and the Winchester is consistently about 90 fps faster than the Remington. A buddies Remington was 130 fps slower than my Winchester with the same loads. The fastest 308 I own has a 20" barrel and consistently shoots faster than the ones with 22" barrels.

 

[EricBu]

Unless your running a semiautomatic I would use neck tension to hold the bullet and ditch the crimp. If you get any bullet movements, polish down your expander with scotchbrite for a minute or so. With a micrometer you should be able to take .0003 or so off at a time.

^
This