Max deer kill 7 mm mag
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What theoretically can be accomplished, and what most people would consider ethical, are far from being one and the same. Even if i had the skills (i don't) to take deer beyond 500 yards, the margin of error for all but the absolute most elite of shooters makes such long shots on game animals a bad idea. You'll get many arguments considering what is ethical and what isn't. That said, I've 'made meat' every deer season since I was 13 (35 now), have some nice horns on the wall, and have never taken a deer an inch beyond 300 yards. I've always thought of myself more of a hunter than a "sniper" when it comes to game animals, and have no interest in finding out at what range my killshots become misses or wounding hits. A record means nothing to me, as the memory of a single wounded animal that got away would stay with me far longer than any pride in setting that particular record, and I'd almost guarantee anyone attempting to set such a record would lose animals in the process.
If you only have the ability to put kill shots in the vitals 100% of the time at 300 yards, yes, it is bad. A high-powered cartridge cannot and will not make up for shooter error. If you can consistently put the bullet in the vitals at 800 yards day in and day out, that's one thing. the vast majority of even life-long shooters, myself included, simply don't shoot with that level of precision. "Is that bad?" is a question I cannopt possibly answer without seeing one's shooting skills....and that doesn't mean a photo of one's best group ever at a given range as "proof" of one's skills. If its not repeatable, its a fluke, and no indication of real skill.
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Dthunter
Member
Everyone chimes in at the same time "its unethical to shoot at 1000yards"! It is truly funny how most posters never even think of how many people shoot at moving/running game!
Without question, there is many times more animals wounded by moving/running shots than longrange shots!
Its hunting! People take too many chances at times, yes.
Do your best,work hard to get a good shot that your very competant at. Shoot, and hopefully you get your animal. Everyones ability is different to shoot different Yardages.
Shooting at longrange isnt ALWAYS a result of laziness.
I can shoot MOA groups well past 1000, but I dont shoot much past 500 when hunting.
Hopefully the OP doesnt feel too bad to ask more questions!
Keep it fun, and dont ATTACK people for asking questions.
Without question, there is many times more animals wounded by moving/running shots than longrange shots!
Its hunting! People take too many chances at times, yes.
Do your best,work hard to get a good shot that your very competant at. Shoot, and hopefully you get your animal. Everyones ability is different to shoot different Yardages.
Shooting at longrange isnt ALWAYS a result of laziness.
I can shoot MOA groups well past 1000, but I dont shoot much past 500 when hunting.
Hopefully the OP doesnt feel too bad to ask more questions!
Keep it fun, and dont ATTACK people for asking questions.
I am actually impressd by both. It is the guys who claim to limit shots to only 200-300 yards who are neither hunters or shooters. Anyone who cannot hit a deer at 200 yards has no business shooting at 20 yards either. A 200 yard shot is a zero skill shot that anyone can make with only a limited amount of instruction and practice. Going to 300 only requires a modest amount of practice and anyone with quality equipment and dedicated practice should be able to learn how to hit at 400. Beyond that requires great skill, lots of practice and expensive equipment. But those who dedicate themselves to learn how, spend the money for the equipment, and burn the powder to develop the skills can make a 700+ yard shot look easy. I know several guys who regularly take elk and deer at those ranges and have yet to have one take a step after being hit.
Interestingly those same guys are dedicated archery hunters who have taken deer at 7 yards. Developing both sets of skills takes time and dedication. They don't take any animal at ranges any longer than necessary. If they can get closer they do, but having the skills to make the long shots allows them to do so when there are no other options.
Some guys like to pound their chests and claim it is not hunting unless you get within 200, 300 yards. I've got news for you. Unless you are getting within 25 yards you are not hunting either, only shooting, just like the guy shooting at 700 yards. The difference is you have neither developed the skills to get close or shoot at long range.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Aw, jmr40, you're being a bit arbitrary with the numbers. Lots of guys impose certain limits deliberately, even those who are skilled. Too easy to misjudge the range or the wind, among other things. Or the animal takes a step just as you pull the trigger.
And, for all that some guys can shoot the eyes out of a gnat, they hunt in country where it's extremely rare to even see a game critter beyond a hundred yards.
And, for all that some guys can shoot the eyes out of a gnat, they hunt in country where it's extremely rare to even see a game critter beyond a hundred yards.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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I can regularly hit my 24" steel at 1000 yards 10 for 10 on pretty much any given day with a couple of my .300WM's but there is a vast difference between hitting a non-moving steel target and a live game animal that can take a step at any given time. No amount of practice or skill can account for that step. As I said before, it takes TIME for that bullet to get there. Above 400 yards, and that little bit of time between trigger press and bullet arrival can mean the difference between a gut shot and a perfect heart/lung shot. It's not about the rifle or anything else. It's about that animals MOVEMENTS. Little gust of wind goes across halfway there right as you shot, gut shot. Just too many variables in the field for people to truly account for to be taking those long shots. The game animals deserve our best efforts to take them with as little suffering as we can.
CountryUgly
Member
My average range on downed deer is inside a hundred yards. I do make the occasional exception and take deer at about the 300 to 350 yard mark in one field I hunt. My longest kill was a witnessed and measured no joke 690 yard shot +/- a foot or two. I originally guessed it to be in the 400 yard range and my first shot landed way short. The deer acted like nothing happened so I readjusted and the next round hit on the money. It was lower in the chest than I liked but was a DRT hit no tracking need, the heart was obliterated. I do however routinely practice shooting at 500 yards and am comfortable shooting anywhere inside that distance and if I had of known the distance was closer to 700 yards I would have passed it up. The only deer I've ever had to put a finishing round in was one I shot with a 30-30 at about 40 yards. I hit between the shoulder blades directly in the spine it dropped I walked over thinking it was a done deal but when I approached It raised it's head so I put another in the chest which finished the job. Point being short or long distance the hunter and the bullet both have to do their job. BTW the long shot was with a Savage 111 in '06 with 150gr Winchester Supremes and the redux shot was with a model 94 in 30-30 using 180gr Reminton Core-lokt.
ApacheCoTodd
member
Brings to mind my first Big Horn hunt... "Holy Cow... Look right over there, how about that one?" To which my uncle says to see how far I'd have to go to reach it if I were successful and how long it would take me to get back. It probably woulda been about a 280 yard shot but if I were lucky in reaching it, recovering it and returning - I'd be out all night.
A lot can happen between an animal disappearing after the shot at 1000 yards and you getting to the site if you can even accurately determine the site upon approaching it. It's deceptively harder than it seems to walk directly and correctly to the exact point unless the animal is co-located with a significant land-mark.
So, I'm not saying it's wrong, unethical or dumb as a practice but I will say that for most folk it is ill advised and likely irresponsible.
A lot can happen between an animal disappearing after the shot at 1000 yards and you getting to the site if you can even accurately determine the site upon approaching it. It's deceptively harder than it seems to walk directly and correctly to the exact point unless the animal is co-located with a significant land-mark.
So, I'm not saying it's wrong, unethical or dumb as a practice but I will say that for most folk it is ill advised and likely irresponsible.
beatledog7
Member
The issue here, to me, is machismo. If it makes somebody feel like more of a man to be able to say he made a 500- or 1000-yd kill, then there's nothing any of us can do to change that.
As many have said, in any long-range shot there are many variables, and they vary more and more as distance increases. A 1000-yd clean kill is at least partly luck--luck that the animal stayed put while your round covered the distance.
Even if you have mastered all the other factors, you can't will the critter to stand still. But if the critter is still when you pull the trigger at 200 yards, it probably can't move fast enough to make you miss.
As many have said, in any long-range shot there are many variables, and they vary more and more as distance increases. A 1000-yd clean kill is at least partly luck--luck that the animal stayed put while your round covered the distance.
Even if you have mastered all the other factors, you can't will the critter to stand still. But if the critter is still when you pull the trigger at 200 yards, it probably can't move fast enough to make you miss.
MachIVshooter
Member
That's too dang far. My absolute max is 600, and that's only if I'm positive I can't get closer. As well, I'm doing it with an 8mm mag, which carries quite a bit more oomph to that range than a .30-06 or 7 mag.
I really prefer to keep my shots on game animals under 300 if possible. There's no need to account for range or a stiff breeze inside of that when using 180 gr. boat tail pills starting out at over 3,300 FPS; Zeroed at 200, it's MPBR on a 12" diameter vital zone is 312 yards (holding dead center of the circle, bullet still landing inside). It's still going 2,700 FPS and carries 2,900 ft/lbs to that range, and a 10 MPH 90* crosswind will only push it 4-1/4".
But at 1,000 yards, I'd have to hold over 19 feet and it's velocity would be down to 1,600 FPS with 1,000 ft/lbs. And the same crosswind would shove it a foot and a half.
I have a 220 gr/2,965 FPS load that would fair better in the energy deprtment at that range (1,400 ft/lbs) with similar hold-over, but it doesn't matter, 'cause I ain't takin' a shot on a big game critter that far out!
I really prefer to keep my shots on game animals under 300 if possible. There's no need to account for range or a stiff breeze inside of that when using 180 gr. boat tail pills starting out at over 3,300 FPS; Zeroed at 200, it's MPBR on a 12" diameter vital zone is 312 yards (holding dead center of the circle, bullet still landing inside). It's still going 2,700 FPS and carries 2,900 ft/lbs to that range, and a 10 MPH 90* crosswind will only push it 4-1/4".
But at 1,000 yards, I'd have to hold over 19 feet and it's velocity would be down to 1,600 FPS with 1,000 ft/lbs. And the same crosswind would shove it a foot and a half.
I have a 220 gr/2,965 FPS load that would fair better in the energy deprtment at that range (1,400 ft/lbs) with similar hold-over, but it doesn't matter, 'cause I ain't takin' a shot on a big game critter that far out!
Mr.454
Member
Me personally I would love to try some of those long shots, but from what I've heard that's more common in Alaska. In Ohio you can't hunt deer with a rifle anyway. I could understand 700 yard plus shots in an area with no cover on group of elk or deer. Some situation where getting closer would be very hard, it would be fun. With the right equipment.
41 Mag
Member
Referring to the OP, one scenario might be a necessity and warranted, the other isn't. While I am sure there are times when someone somewhere with the proper gear and skills to use it might be more inclined to shoot out past 800+ yards on a critter, the question in my mind, would have to be, is it necessary to begin with. On the other hand reaching out to longer ranges in a case where it can save lives, is completely rationalized in my mind, and the further the better.
There are areas of the country, where putting a stalk on one or more animals is not going to happen, and areas where seeing something even to 50 yards is a slight proposition due to the cover. It comes down to the person who is doing the hunting as to the ethical restraints they impose upon themselves.
To me having someone who doesn't know me, my situation, skills or beliefs, tell me I'm not "ethical" simply because I don't do something the way they think I should, makes about as much since as California banning the way a plastic gas can spout can be made there, and it effecting me being able to purchase one here in Texas that has worked fine for over a decade. Or being told that lead bullets are hazardous to use.
While I DO freely admit, reaching out beyond 500yds is not something for everyone, there are quite a few who can and do shoot quite well enough to make one shot kills at this range and beyond. They have put in the time, effort, and cash to build the skills, load, and rifle package capable of the energy and accuracy to do so. I do not hold anything what so ever against these folks and they are just as free to do as they please as the fellow who just bought a 30-30 to hunt in his back 40.
Myself, I have been there with the long range rifle, and after a year of honest work with it, I managed to dial it in to a 9" group at 1175yds. This said, the longest shot I have made with it on anything other than paper or steel has been just shy of 500yds. Not because I didn't have the skill to do so, I just never have had the chance when the opportunity presented it's self. I don't specifically set up just for a shot like that, and I also feel like most if I can easily get closer I will.
In my lifetime of hunting, some 40+ years, I have tracked plenty of deer and other critters which were shot by myself and other good hunters at ranges less than 100yds. These were mostly all good shots, and the deer were mostly hit solidly. Some were found after a bit of tracking, some weren't found until later, or not at all. I have also had deer at 20yds or less duck when the arrow was released only to hit them high or have them turn and shoot through them length wise with a bow. So the argument about them moving at range verses up close resulting in a bad hit is simply BS. They can and do move at either, so if that is the only argument you might as well quite hunting all together. Two deer in the last 10 years, one with a rifle, one with a bow, I have shot under 40yds were lost initially but found after the yotes and spoilage had occurred. Both were hit solid through the lungs and neither left more than a couple of drops of blood in the hundred or more yards they ran. The cover was simply too dense to follow exactly where they ran, but in both cases we were within several yards of find them both.
Myself, I strive for the utmost accuracy from myself and all of my hunting rigs, be it bow, rifle, or handgun. While many feel pie plate accuracy is plenty good for hunting, I look for, and work for quarter sized or better groups from them all. Every year I watch plenty of folks sight in at 100yds and to me some of their groups, are far from what I would call a group, but they are happily patting themselves on the back and saying that's minute of deer any day. Some of these same folks will argue all day long about shooting past 200yds being unethical and have plenty of "facts" to back them up. Yet all the while do not put in any more time behind the trigger than is necessary to foul the barrel and see that they actually hit the paper. Yet these same folks go out and kill plenty of deer every year, where I may or may not even pull the trigger on one.
All this said, the "ethics' portion of one mans hunt is his business, and while there is a code by which we should all strive to uphold, it simply doesn't apply across the board the same from the thick eastern woods, as it might in the flat mid western plains. There is no getting around the time of flight be it bullet or arrow, or the time between when your brain says to shoot, and your finger actually squeezed the trigger. Some are faster some are slower, but in that brief span of time, things can and do happen no matter the range, and once either is on it's way, there is no way of changing the outcome good or bad. IMO, You either have to live with knowing this and accept the consequences, or simply give it up and move on to some other past time. Either way don't simply judge one another based solely on your abilities or conditions, as they may or may not apply to their circumstance. If they are within the law and doing the best of their ability, that's good enough for me
There are areas of the country, where putting a stalk on one or more animals is not going to happen, and areas where seeing something even to 50 yards is a slight proposition due to the cover. It comes down to the person who is doing the hunting as to the ethical restraints they impose upon themselves.
To me having someone who doesn't know me, my situation, skills or beliefs, tell me I'm not "ethical" simply because I don't do something the way they think I should, makes about as much since as California banning the way a plastic gas can spout can be made there, and it effecting me being able to purchase one here in Texas that has worked fine for over a decade. Or being told that lead bullets are hazardous to use.
While I DO freely admit, reaching out beyond 500yds is not something for everyone, there are quite a few who can and do shoot quite well enough to make one shot kills at this range and beyond. They have put in the time, effort, and cash to build the skills, load, and rifle package capable of the energy and accuracy to do so. I do not hold anything what so ever against these folks and they are just as free to do as they please as the fellow who just bought a 30-30 to hunt in his back 40.
Myself, I have been there with the long range rifle, and after a year of honest work with it, I managed to dial it in to a 9" group at 1175yds. This said, the longest shot I have made with it on anything other than paper or steel has been just shy of 500yds. Not because I didn't have the skill to do so, I just never have had the chance when the opportunity presented it's self. I don't specifically set up just for a shot like that, and I also feel like most if I can easily get closer I will.
In my lifetime of hunting, some 40+ years, I have tracked plenty of deer and other critters which were shot by myself and other good hunters at ranges less than 100yds. These were mostly all good shots, and the deer were mostly hit solidly. Some were found after a bit of tracking, some weren't found until later, or not at all. I have also had deer at 20yds or less duck when the arrow was released only to hit them high or have them turn and shoot through them length wise with a bow. So the argument about them moving at range verses up close resulting in a bad hit is simply BS. They can and do move at either, so if that is the only argument you might as well quite hunting all together. Two deer in the last 10 years, one with a rifle, one with a bow, I have shot under 40yds were lost initially but found after the yotes and spoilage had occurred. Both were hit solid through the lungs and neither left more than a couple of drops of blood in the hundred or more yards they ran. The cover was simply too dense to follow exactly where they ran, but in both cases we were within several yards of find them both.
Myself, I strive for the utmost accuracy from myself and all of my hunting rigs, be it bow, rifle, or handgun. While many feel pie plate accuracy is plenty good for hunting, I look for, and work for quarter sized or better groups from them all. Every year I watch plenty of folks sight in at 100yds and to me some of their groups, are far from what I would call a group, but they are happily patting themselves on the back and saying that's minute of deer any day. Some of these same folks will argue all day long about shooting past 200yds being unethical and have plenty of "facts" to back them up. Yet all the while do not put in any more time behind the trigger than is necessary to foul the barrel and see that they actually hit the paper. Yet these same folks go out and kill plenty of deer every year, where I may or may not even pull the trigger on one.
All this said, the "ethics' portion of one mans hunt is his business, and while there is a code by which we should all strive to uphold, it simply doesn't apply across the board the same from the thick eastern woods, as it might in the flat mid western plains. There is no getting around the time of flight be it bullet or arrow, or the time between when your brain says to shoot, and your finger actually squeezed the trigger. Some are faster some are slower, but in that brief span of time, things can and do happen no matter the range, and once either is on it's way, there is no way of changing the outcome good or bad. IMO, You either have to live with knowing this and accept the consequences, or simply give it up and move on to some other past time. Either way don't simply judge one another based solely on your abilities or conditions, as they may or may not apply to their circumstance. If they are within the law and doing the best of their ability, that's good enough for me
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I guess we can agree that there are some people who can make hits and ethical kills in the "way out there" arena. But I think that they are pretty much few and far between when thinking of "most hunters".
I'm fairly-well skilled with a rifle, and certainly have a bunch of experience--but I think of the odds. Odds are, for me, thinking about 600 yards and more, a bad hit is more likely than a clean kill. Simple enough; I won't take that shot.
If the conditions are right (wind, e.g.), some folks with proper gear might well be successful.
I'd generalize that these extra-long shots are a bad idea...
I'm fairly-well skilled with a rifle, and certainly have a bunch of experience--but I think of the odds. Odds are, for me, thinking about 600 yards and more, a bad hit is more likely than a clean kill. Simple enough; I won't take that shot.
If the conditions are right (wind, e.g.), some folks with proper gear might well be successful.
I'd generalize that these extra-long shots are a bad idea...
aerod1
Member
To me it is more fun to see how close I can get before taking the shot. My longest shot on a Whitetal is under 200 yards. I did shoot an elk at 316 yards with my 300 win mag. That was my longest shot ever at an animal.
I prefer the closer shots. Most of the time I shoot whitetails with my 243, 250-3000 or 6.5x55 Swede (my favorite).
I prefer the closer shots. Most of the time I shoot whitetails with my 243, 250-3000 or 6.5x55 Swede (my favorite).
CountryUgly
Member
The shot I mentioned fell into this catagory..... It didn't flinch after the first round fell short. I've had the time behind that gun to be confident with hits at those ranges on stationary targets and the deer wasn't moving so I figured what the heck. I sent the next round down and bingo I got lucky. It was a clean kill. Will I ever try it again? No. I'll tell you why. My ego has been fed and I've got nothing else to prove. I made the shot once and If anyone ever ask I'll tell them I could make it everytime. I never intend on trying it again so I'll never be proven wrong.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2003
- Messages
- 13,341
I done shot a critter so far one time I had to have two spotters set up on ridges down range just to tell me where to hold. We had to wait three days for the buzzards to start circling before we could even find the critter. Heck even then we needed a good map just to get to him!
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hardluk1
member
J1 But those deer taste sooo good.
Kachok
Member
One key factor to consider even if you can accurately place your bullet at 1,000 yards bullets have a minimum expansion speed below which they often punch a very small clean hole and do little damage to the vitals. Even a double lung shot with such poor terminal performance will lead to a slow death for the animal, and you loosing your dinner for sure. Yes there is a bullet for the 7mm rem mag that will in fact expand at 1,000yd speeds (with a stout load) which will remain namelsss here since I don't want to give any wannabe snipers any ideas, but even with that you are in the realm of marginal terminal performance given the low impact speed and energy. Minimum expansion speeds usually range from 1,600-2000fps depending on the bullet and caliber, and when they say minimum them mean minimum, as in that will slightly deform the tip of the bullet on ballistics gel, ideal expansion is often 2200fps or higher.
Moral to the story kiddies is know your game, know your gun, and know how your bullet performs at the point of impact. I am not going to judge anyone who makes long shots because that is a subjective term, but me personally I like to get as close as possible not as far away as I can, to me that is more of a skill then any crazy long shot.
Moral to the story kiddies is know your game, know your gun, and know how your bullet performs at the point of impact. I am not going to judge anyone who makes long shots because that is a subjective term, but me personally I like to get as close as possible not as far away as I can, to me that is more of a skill then any crazy long shot.
Texan Scott
Member
A man needs to know his limitations. Personally, I know from experience that I shoot WAY better at paper when I'm calm than at a moving animal when I've got a bit of adrenaline going. In theory, I'd be happy with a .30-30 out to 150 yards. In practice, I'm better off getting a close as I can get without spooking the animal. I'm not good enough to get within 7 yards of a deer; i'm DEF not good enough to hit one at 700; my last deer was 20-25 yards away, and DRT. Not fancy, but humane, easier to retrieve, and my family ate well for a good long time off that doe.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
H&H, you ever salt your bullets so the critter won't spoil before you get over to him?
Clark
Member
I hand load; 19 Badger,.222, .223, 22-250, 6mmBR, .243, 25acp, 25/35, 250/3000, 257 Robert Ackley Improved, 260Rem, 6.5x55, 270, 7x57mm, 7mm Rem mag, 32acp, 32sw, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x25mm, 30-30, 303Sav, 300Sav, 7.62x39mm, 308, 7.5Swiss, 30-06, 300WM, 303Brit,7.62x54R, 8x57mm, 338WM, .380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm, 357 Sig, 38 sp, 357 mag, 38sw, 40sw, 10mm, 10.4mm, 401 power mag, 44mag, 45acp, 45Colt, .410, 45/70, and 12 ga.
I have been putting all my efforts for big game hunting in the 7mmRemMag in 2010, 2011, and probably 2012.
In 2010 I shot 3 mule deer, the furthest was at 380 yards.
I have been practicing at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards.
In 2011 I arrived to hunt a few days early and really practiced hard.
I thought I had all the accuracy I needed for 500 yards, but my 600 yard probability of a clean kill was at 50%.
Antelope season was open 10 minutes and I shot my antelope at 60 yards with the 7mm. The placement was good, 50 feet of staggering and fell down dead.
Deer season opened and In 2 hours I shot a mule deer at 440 yards with the 7mm. The animal went down, but the placement was high. I had to finish the animal off with a neck shot at close range.
It never works out as planned.
I have been putting all my efforts for big game hunting in the 7mmRemMag in 2010, 2011, and probably 2012.
In 2010 I shot 3 mule deer, the furthest was at 380 yards.
I have been practicing at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards.
In 2011 I arrived to hunt a few days early and really practiced hard.
I thought I had all the accuracy I needed for 500 yards, but my 600 yard probability of a clean kill was at 50%.
Antelope season was open 10 minutes and I shot my antelope at 60 yards with the 7mm. The placement was good, 50 feet of staggering and fell down dead.
Deer season opened and In 2 hours I shot a mule deer at 440 yards with the 7mm. The animal went down, but the placement was high. I had to finish the animal off with a neck shot at close range.
It never works out as planned.
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