"May Not Carry Concealed"

[Colt Smith]

Is anybody here from the New York Area? Particularly Rockland County? I have had a concealed carry permit since 1991. Recently I had the license amended to add a pistol (for all you hardware junkies it was a MarkIII Trooper). Anyhoo, my new license came back with a restriction that read: "MAY NOT CARRY CONCEALED". I wrote letters to the top courthouse in the area, to the Commission on Judicial Conduct in New York City and the NRA. I just got a reply back from the courthouse that basically said because of the wording in Heller v DC the judge was within his rights to put the restriction on my license.

Is anyone familiar with Judge Victor Alfieri?

Does anyone have any advice about where I could get some help getting this restriction removed? Senators, congresspeople?

 

[I'm Thinking...]

I've driven through (thank Diety ) Rockland a few times on my way to Orange (Warwick).

Well, you've probably heard this next one a few times, but.... why in blazes do you (still)
live in N.Y. State (think Senator Schumer )?

 

[Gray Peterson]

May not carry concealed? Does this judge not know that open carry is UNLAWFUL in New York State?

Contact the NYSRPA, specifically Jacob. He might be able to get this resolved.

 

[Jeff F]

Wait a minute, Let me see if I'm gotten this right. You have a concealed carry license and you tried to add a gun on it and it came back saying you may not carry concealed.

Sounds like they just revoked your carry permit. Wow, that is not good.

 

[SFvet]

Thats interesting.

 

[ar10]

Haven't any of you heard You are under the the protection of the King of New Yourk.

 

[camslam]

I don't live there, nor would I ever, but this kind of thing REALLY gets me going.

I feel for you Colt Smith, but unfortunately unless you are willing to spend a lot of time, money, and energy, I don't think you will be seeing much change on your permit.

 

[Code3GT]

Wow...well...my solution, move outta da narth and head to Texas. We'll welcome you with open arms and a CCW application

 

[General Geoff]

Or move further north to Vermont, where you don't need no stinking license!

 

[Jimmy Dean]

Interesting, you have a CCW permit with the restriction of being unable to CCW....

 

[Bennett Prescott]

No, he has a PISTOL permit. The ability to CCW is an addition to that permit. In NY you are a criminal for touching a pistol without a permit. To get that permit you have to apply to local law enforcement in your county, have lived in that same area for four (five?) years, and have four references that they will check out carefully. If one of those people doesn't feel like being pro-gun that day, you ain't getting your permit. Even if everything goes right, it's likely to be 18 MONTHS until you see a permit, and then it's likely to be restricted to hunting, target shooting, and home. No carry. After you've proven that you didn't become a homicidal maniac after being "allowed" to own a pistol for a period of time (usually at least a year), then you can re-apply to get an unrestricted carry permit. You have to register each and every pistol on your permit.

Or at least that's how it was in Rensselaer county when I was there. It varies BY COUNTY. Which means that in the area I was in, you could have to wait 7 years or so from the beginning of your residency to carry in public legally.

And even then, there are plenty of places you still can't carry.

 

[Jim March]

CRITICAL QUESTION:

Does New York allow open carry of handguns?

If not, the judge's read of Heller is way, WAY off.

Better yet, the judge is claiming that the 2nd Amendment is now incorporated against the state of NY. Which means you can sue him in Federal court.

OK. Step one: read the Heller decision.

Step two: READ THE CASES HELLER CITES TO!

Or you can take the easy road and read the attached file , or at least the first part on carry rights under Heller...

Upshot: while the Heller court said that concealed carry bans could probably be supported, the case law they cite to for that proposition ALL says "only so long as open carry is legal".

According to:

http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html

...and:

http://opencarry.org/ny.html

...open carry is flat banned in NY.

Time to fight. Start with a letter of complaint to the judge pointing out his error. Point out also that his cite to Heller means he can be sued in Federal court under a 42USC1983 action, PLUS he has just cast serious doubt on whether you can be legally charged for concealed carry, as Heller allows concealed carry bans ONLY where open carry is legal.

Go on offense, bigtime.

 

[Colt Smith]

OK. I don't think my license is a permit. It is a carry license. Under "State of New York, Rockland County" it reads in plain english "LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL IS HEREBY GRANTED". I didn't just apply for it recently. I applied, paid my fees, took my training courses, had my references checked, etc. and got my (at the time, paper) carry license back in 1991. I put a couple of guns on it. In the last year or two I added a couple of guns. At that time they converted my license to the new plastic card license but still no restrictions. A couple of weeks ago I added the Trooper MkIII. That's when it came back with the restriction. The guys at the gun shop warned me it was coming and sure enough there it was. I think the judge knows quite well that I can't carry it openly. By placing the "may not" restriction he knows he has effectively nullified my carry privileges. I can only keep it at home and use it for "sporting purposes". But it doesn't tell me how I can transport a gun home from the shop or to the range. Can't have it out in the open but I sure as hell can't have it concealed now. And what about the many "sporting purposes" that take place outdoors? What if I want to go fishing, hiking, photographing or painting out in the mountains? This is insane. I know a little bit about this judge's dealings with other people. He is a very cocky and smug character. He challenges people to sue him knowing that most people don't have the pockets to go the distance. A very power drunk individual. Since the Heller case added the provision for "reasonable" limitations it of course is interpreted by anti-gun judges to mean any restriction they please.

What is the NYSRPA? Who is this Jacobs person? How can they help? I read the Heller holdings and there is good support there. But I am dealing with a judge who thinks he rules by divine right. I would consider moving but my job and all my family are here. Do I give up everything I know just so I can carry a gun? Not yet. Some day, maybe soon, we will all be going to another "Tea Party".

 

[Jim March]

Dude...the judge has painted himself into a corner. OK? The *moment* he cited to Heller he blew it, he put himself under Federal jurisdiction. He set up the ONE situation in which he can be personally sued for his actions.

You'll own his butt if you can get a Federal court action together.

 

[ctdonath]

Slow down guys.

This is normal for NY. It is long established that the issuing judge may place restrictions on the license. By NY law he can revoke the license for absolutely any reason any time, so he's letting you know that if you carry concealed, he'll revoke the license. It is also long established that what you have is a carry license, and while he may revoke it at any time for any reason, so long as you do have it you are legal to carry concealed - just understand that the judge can revoke it.

NYSRPA is essentially the NY version of the NRA. Join now.

Get a copy of "Firearms and Weapons Law in NY" (IIRC) and read it cover-to-cover.

You live in New York. What you're experiencing is established law of New York. If you don't like it, either suck it up or move. I moved.

Edit: Heller may give you additional options as Jim notes. HOWEVER (Jim March, pay attention): due to the semantics of how the restriction is implemented, you probably cannot successfully bring a case unless the judge actually revokes your permit. As allowed under Heller, you basically asked for a permit, and you got it, restriction notwithstanding; it IS a full possession-and-carry permit, with the caveat that you won't have it any more if the judge finds out you're using it to carry concealed. Yes, this sounds nuts - but don't go spouting off about it until you understand this semantic nuance.

 

[Jim March]

It's not normal for America - not post-Heller.

I'm tellin' ya, this judge just stepped all over his male organ. Bigtime.

 

[ctdonath]

Could be attacked as a "deprivation of rights under color of law" case.

Core of the case is that he DOES have a license to carry legally (restriction thereon is legally irrelevant under NY case law), so he has the right he seeks. However, this right has been threatened with revocation by the issuing judge on arbitrary grounds involving legal behavior. Revocation would, among other things, deprive him of handguns entirely. Color of law chills lawful exercise of rights.

Pre-Heller, there would be no case as this behavior has been upheld.

Post-Heller, you get to be a test case if you like. Contact Gura et al.

 

[r6zer]

feel bad for you at least in my county we do not have to see a judge to add a pistol to our permit. good luck, hope it works out for you.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Once again I'm reminded why I think upstate NY is beautiful...but I'd never EVER move back there unless there was a major political revision.

 

[50Shooter]

Colt Smith

Jacob from the NYSRPA contacted me about your situation. I sit on the Board of Directors of the NYSRPA with him as the .50-Caliber Director, but I live in Rockland and am the VP of the United Sportsman Association of Rockland. Could you e-mail me some information, that I can bring up at our meeting next week and discuss with the NYSRPA-BOD on how we can help? E-mail me at [email protected] and I will see how we can help you. I will also make a phone call today, to the NYSP Firearms Devision, to see if he can put restrictions on an unrestricted license.

Marc Diana- New York State Rifle and Pistol Association .50-Caliber Director
www.nysrpa.org

 

[vis-à-vis]

Sounds like New York v. Colt Smith to me.

 

[crebralfix]

I think it's great that there are people willing to help out a complete stranger in this situation!

 

[Colt Smith]

Thanks Everybody

I appreciate everybody's support. Sounds like this is getting interesting fast. I don't have the pockets for a long protracted law suit but I'll do what I can as long as I can. 50Shooter, I will give you whatever you need. I am very thankful for your help. I will email you what I have today. If you need anything further let me know and I will provide it if I can. Crebralfix, I certainly agree with you about that. Society's perception about gun owners is so off-base. This community is made up of some of the most selfless, trustworthy and helpful people out there. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but don't the references in Heller basically say that I can be prohibited from carrying concealed only if I have other means available to me (meaning open carry)? It also says that if open carry is not allowed then prohibiting concealed carry conflicts with my basic 2A guaranteed right to protect myself (or the state) and nullifies the restriction. "Reasonable restrictions" means cannot carry in schools, government buildings, etc. A restriction that entirely conflicts with my right to carry anywhere is not reasonable.

 

[rino451]

he's letting you know that if you carry concealed, he'll revoke the license. It is also long established that what you have is a carry license, and while he may revoke it at any time for any reason, so long as you do have it you are legal to carry concealed

Wow, is getting the NY permit counter intuitive or counter productive?

 

[Cacique500]

Keep us posted on this.