Maybe requiring some training is a good idea...

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Mandatory firearm safety lessons might be a good thing in public schools -- integrate it into the "Health" class in middles school. Someting not much more sophisticated than the NRA Eddie Eagle program. But that's totally separate from requiring someone to take a competency test to exercise their 2A rights.
 
Can’t we be “reasonable”? Sure we can, we’re just waiting for the GCN’s to be reasonable. But don’t rights come with “responsibilities”? NOOOO! Unalienable rights, by definition cannot be qualified. Setting some arbitrary standard of competence not only infringes the rights of those who are able to meet some onerous requirements, it absolutely denies rights to those who fail to meet the requirements. Even the most incompetent boob in the world was born with the unalienable human right to use deadly force for the defense of his or her person, property, and dignity, or to assemble together with other incompetent boobs for their common defense.

Even in the hands of complete idiots, more guns equal less crime. If street predators wanted to risk their lives to make a living, they would move to Alaska and become crab fishermen.

When considering the fact that almost 200,000,000 people were murdered by their own governments during the last century I conclude that guns are safer in the hands of citizens who are complete imbeciles, than they would be in the hands of intelligent, trained, and competent government officials.



"Our wrongs we must right if we can through the Ballot Box, and if this fails us, through the Cartridge Box."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story wrote;
 
But don’t rights come with “responsibilities”? NOOOO!

The problem is that your rights end were the other guys begin.

It becomes a real problem with lethal items.
We have not found how to bring back the dead with any degree of success.

We had a battle over training when Virginia became shall issue.
The requirements are very lax to prevent them from being used to deny permits.

The consequences of mistakes weigh heavily on at least a rudimentary level of safety training.

Here are Virginia training requirements.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;

2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;

4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;

6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in the Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;

7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;

8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or

9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

They have been held to a pretty bare minimum.

Your ownership (and even open carrying of a handgun) is not predicated on these requirements, just the ability to carry a concealed handgun.

Virginia has already had states not want reciprocity since our requirements are 'so lax.'

A number of other states seem to have gone the other way requiring demonstrated shooting skill to carry.

We have not had any significant accidents in Virginia, so I think our requirement may be adequate.
 
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Pennsylvania requires no training.

The requirements are non-existant and therefore cannot be used to deny permits.

Your ownership (and even open carrying of a handgun) is not predicated on training requirements, and neither is the ability to carry a concealed handgun.

PA has found that some states do not want reciprocity since our requirements are 'so lax,' and/or for other reasons.

A number of other states seem to have gone the way of requiring no demonstrated shooting skill to carry, nor, indeed any requirement that one be permitted or licensed to carry at all.

We have not had any more significant accidents than Virginia, so I think NO requirement may indeed be adequate.
 
Pennsylvania requires no training.

The requirements are non-existant and therefore cannot be used to deny permits.

Your ownership (and even open carrying of a handgun) is not predicated on training requirements, and neither is the ability to carry a concealed handgun.

PA has found that some states do not want reciprocity since our requirements are 'so lax,' and/or for other reasons.

A number of other states seem to have gone the way of requiring no demonstrated shooting skill to carry, nor, indeed any requirement that one be permitted or licensed to carry at all.

We have not had any more significant accidents than Virginia, so I think NO requirement may indeed be adequate.
Bravo!

As I have said many times, training is a solution.

Before we begin demanding a solution, we ought to be able to articulate a problem. And show how the proposed solution will deal with the problem.

There is no problem. Firearms deaths, from both accidents and homicides are going down, not up.
 
Benevolent Government

The "mandatory training" proposal presumes benevolent government.

I can't say I'm old enough to remember FDR, but I was around for LBJ, and voting age when he got the boot.

Since then I've seen a parade of presidents, senators, congressmen, governors, agency heads, and bureaucrats of all stripes who all have one thing in common: do whatever it takes to secure their position.

Individually, these people are (generally) decent, thoughtful, persuadable people. Together, and in the context of their positions, they behave in a predictably I'm-the-boss-and-you-will-comply manner, always ready to assert authority whether they have it or not. They are public "servants" who spend their time enforcing their will on the public whom they ostensibly "serve." They do not suffer from such confining concepts as "the customer is always right."

In theory, having a (benign) government department of some kind do the (benevolent) record keeping is a good idea. I know that, if I ran a large company and had to keep track of customers and memberships, I'd have a department for that. Except that, in a company context, the department keeping the records, and the departments whom they service, would have no authority over the persons on whom the records were kept.

In government, there's always someone who has some kind of authority and someone who wants more authority than he already has. There's always somebody who looks to centralize and consolidate. I'm sure there are appropriate biological metaphors, but the point is, government is not neutral.

Government, as a seemingly natural inclination, shows a repeated tendency to evolve toward some form of socialism (or other totalitarian construct) under some banner or other, and sees individual independence as a threat to its authority and control.

As much as we would hope that a new department in government would -- or even could -- remain neutral, we know it won't happen. They simply can't permit a "low impact" solution (like voluntary record keeping) to remain that way. "OMG! How will you enforce this?! It's full of freaking loopholes! *** is wrong with you?! Don't you realize you need tighter regulation? And so it goes.

No one disputes that training is a good idea.

For people who get hunting licenses, hunter safety courses are, in fact, already a requirement in many jurisdictions.

The problem is, the thinking process that goes from "it's a good idea" to the (logical?) conclusion that "therefore it must be mandatory" is insidious and a device of creeping incrementalism.

Good idea --> mandatory is an unfortunately plausible construct that lends itself to stricter and stricter oversight and control of the individual, until there is (mandatory) surveillance in every room of the house to enforce "good ideas" like brushing your teeth, how much toilet paper you use, how high a flame you use under the frying pan, monitoring of contraband substances in the kitchen that might lead to cooking with trans fats or (shudder) butter , and a review of possibly unsafe sexual habits in the bedroom.

Yes, I understand that gun safety isn't entirely about the safety of the operator, and that there are bystanders to consider, but any measure taken to "guarantee" gun safety on the part of government is not going to follow the originally imagined vector.

If you want safety in a given domain, a better approach is a cultural one.

Our children are taught routinely in schools to be careful when crossing the street, and a whole spectrum other safety and personal care teachings.

Schools routinely teach car safety, drug safety, alcohol safety, sports safety, safe sex, and so on. And sex isn't even enumerated in the Constitution.

You want safe shooters? Bring back rifle teams. Add firearms safety to the "Health & Science" curriculum. Add gunsmithing to the auto shop & wood shop family of classes. Little Johnny gets graded on his ability to learn and apply gun safety. Gun clubs in high school. Gun safety week. I mean, really, isn't it appropriate to integrate something actually enumerated in the Constitution into our educational processes?

By the time a kid graduates from high school, the military won't have to worry that they're recruiting gun morons. Guns will be so commonplace culturally that anyone seen doing something stupid with a gun is immediately censured by his peers. "Hey, moron, rule #2. Your momma raise you in a convent?"

Demystify guns. Put them back into the mainstream of the cultural thinking.

Rather than have government track who's been trained and certified, make training and certification the default. Hey, if you got a high school diploma, you know gun handling.

Is that more effort than creating an agency for oversight? Why, yes, it is.

Still, in my estimation, it's very much worth it.

 
Government, as a seemingly natural inclination, shows a repeated tendency to evolve toward some form of socialism (or other totalitarian construct) under some banner or other, and sees individual independence as a threat to its authority and control.
If you believe the social contract premise, the purpose of government is to create a source of authority and control to protect us from others. As individuals, our freedoms are unlimited. As members of a society, we come to an agreement that some of these freedoms can be relinquished. These are expressed in rules that prohibit our actions, such as murder and theft.
Unless our government is provided sufficient authority and control, it will not be able to accomplish what we want it to. We can put limitations on it with things like the BoR. However, the enumerated and expressed RKBA in the 2nd amendment is simply a right we have not relinquished.

Our children are taught routinely in schools to be careful when crossing the street, and a whole spectrum other safety and personal care teachings.

Schools routinely teach car safety, drug safety, alcohol safety, sports safety, safe sex, and so on. And sex isn't even enumerated in the Constitution.
In spite of all of these educational efforts, we have seen that more than education plays a role in their safe usage. Judgment is important. If they don't have the judgment to use the information that we have provided them, then they will act in ways dangerous to themselves and others.
 
If you believe the social contract premise, the purpose of government is to create a source of authority and control to protect us from others. As individuals, our freedoms are unlimited. As members of a society, we come to an agreement that some of these freedoms can be relinquished. These are expressed in rules that prohibit our actions, such as murder and theft. Unless our government is provided sufficient authority and control, it will not be able to accomplish what we want it to.

Well said.
 
Many scholars hold that the Founding Fathers went beyond the social contract premise, especially considering the 10th Amendment.

Under the Social Contract, the people give up some rights to government in return for protection. However the Constitution is really a fiduciary document, not a contract. Under a fiduciary agreement, the government has no rights (except vis-a-vis other governments). It only has duties.
 
From the perspective of the individual in society, there is no difference between a government whose duty is to curtail a freedom and a government that enforces their self-denial of freedom.

Our children are taught routinely in schools to be careful when crossing the street, and a whole spectrum other safety and personal care teachings.

Schools routinely teach car safety, drug safety, alcohol safety, sports safety, safe sex, and so on. And sex isn't even enumerated in the Constitution.

You want safe shooters? Bring back rifle teams. Add firearms safety to the "Health & Science" curriculum. Add gunsmithing to the auto shop & wood shop family of classes. Little Johnny gets graded on his ability to learn and apply gun safety. Gun clubs in high school. Gun safety week. I mean, really, isn't it appropriate to integrate something actually enumerated in the Constitution into our educational processes?
Schools routinely teach safety, but it often is so limited in depth and scope that it becomes almost useless. Some places still teach abstinence only sex ed. Our school never graded us on our ability to use a condom or dental dam. Drug safety is even worse, and often never goes beyond "drugs are bad, m'kay?"

Without a massive cultural change, the students will get the gun equivalent of abstinence only sex ed.
 
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