By wrong I mean he felt it was wrong. He knew he did not have to take those lives and I think he knew it wasn't so clear cut as he may have thought before. If you want to argue about what is legal and illegal, thats fine, but right and wrong doesnt always coincide with those terms.
Texas man cleared of shooting suspected burglars
- Thread starter Eric F
- Start date
- Status
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I think if you shoot someone, in any circumstance, and you don't second guess yourself or feel remorse then you're not human.
Doesn't mean that it wasn't still the right thing to do.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
I'm OK with that. I suspect there are a lot that don't. But in Texas we have a law to protect citizens that DO want to stand up against crime and that's what happened here.
This guy was within that law. If there is such disagreement with that law and it comes before the Texas Legislature to change it we'll see what people think then. I don't think that will happen but we'll see.
It's the same as with concealed handgun carriers.
In an ideal world the question in a criminals mind "will I get shot for doing this" will end up with the criminal saying "Yes, there's a pretty good chance that I might" so he doesn't commit the crime in the first place.
That's why we have CHLs and that's why Texas has this law about shooting people over property. It's not that property has a value as high as a life, more that a criminals life has less value in a civilized world and we want them to be aware of that.
Harsh thing to say certainly.
The deterrent factor. If no one ever shoots back that question isn't asked.
So now we have a very public case and if there's one guy who was thinking about committing a crime and has changed his mind then there has truly been a positive outcome.
We'll never know, but that is why these laws exist; to plant that fear into the minds of potential criminals.
Same with the death penalty.
Don't wanna get shot? Don't steal people's stuff, don't be a criminal.
crebralfix
member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,356
This wasn't vigilanteism. It was immediate defense of property. He did not hunt them down, have a kangaroo court, and inflict a verdict.
Society is this way BECAUSE we, as people, fail to take action as this man has. Texas law recognizes this, but the culture does not. Arrogant Bastard said it:
Bloodlust? Maybe. It could also be frustration with failure of government policy and policing. Perhaps this was a frequent occurrence and thugs were running rampant through the area. I would find the backstory interesting.
I agree with another poster's statement that it's not about valuing property over life and that it's about stopping criminal activity and devaluing a life engaging in that behavior. This is something that has been lost in the culture over the past century. I think "we" have a very difficult time "being hard" -- look at the silliness surrounding how we do war. We can barely tolerate 30 casualties in a month (frankly, this is nothing). Now, a man takes action and everyone freaks out.
Yet, these same people lament how the neighborhood has "gone downhill" and they're afraid to go out at night.
Consider the opposite extreme: England. Thugs break a old lady's arm in a robbery and they get a ticket and a warning. The guy who went to beat the snot out of them for doing so gets jail time (I think...need to find the reports, but you get the drift).
Society is this way BECAUSE we, as people, fail to take action as this man has. Texas law recognizes this, but the culture does not. Arrogant Bastard said it:
Bloodlust? Maybe. It could also be frustration with failure of government policy and policing. Perhaps this was a frequent occurrence and thugs were running rampant through the area. I would find the backstory interesting.
I agree with another poster's statement that it's not about valuing property over life and that it's about stopping criminal activity and devaluing a life engaging in that behavior. This is something that has been lost in the culture over the past century. I think "we" have a very difficult time "being hard" -- look at the silliness surrounding how we do war. We can barely tolerate 30 casualties in a month (frankly, this is nothing). Now, a man takes action and everyone freaks out.
Yet, these same people lament how the neighborhood has "gone downhill" and they're afraid to go out at night.
Consider the opposite extreme: England. Thugs break a old lady's arm in a robbery and they get a ticket and a warning. The guy who went to beat the snot out of them for doing so gets jail time (I think...need to find the reports, but you get the drift).
I was thinking the quote from the officer said that both criminals were on Joe Horn's property when he shot them. I believe he said they moved toward him at an angle and he decided to shoot and it all happened really fast. The officer indicated he thought they intended to run away but ran closer to Mr. Horn in doing it and triggered his threat response. That officer did not fault Mr. Horn at all. How can I 2nd guess that here in front of my computer?
I agree with Texas Rifleman. Anyone who shoots someone in self defense is going to second guess and relive the moment over and over. They will ask themselves if their is anything they could/should have done different. Hell, I do that for much less severe moments even years later sometimes even when I know I didn't do anything wrong. It doesn't mean he was wrong at all.
IMO, his mistake was getting too chatty with the 911 guy. I was amazed how many people think the 911 guy is empowered to give you orders.
I agree with Texas Rifleman. Anyone who shoots someone in self defense is going to second guess and relive the moment over and over. They will ask themselves if their is anything they could/should have done different. Hell, I do that for much less severe moments even years later sometimes even when I know I didn't do anything wrong. It doesn't mean he was wrong at all.
IMO, his mistake was getting too chatty with the 911 guy. I was amazed how many people think the 911 guy is empowered to give you orders.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
"Castle Doctrine" had nothing to do with this. These laws were on the books many years before this "castle" stuff came along.
LongRider
Member
"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - -- Edmund Burke - --
Stop you don't know that person, mind you own business. Stand by, do nothing. while that woman is being raped. While that guy is beaten to death. Do nothing while your neighbor is being robbed. Who cares they are no relation to you. There was a time in America that was an aberration. When if that happened it made national news. A whole nation would shake its head in shame and disgust unable to comprehend the spineless sniveling cowards who would allow any such a deed.
We have now come full circle. Now there is an out cry when the neighborhood grand pa stands up against armed invaders from another nation whose only mission in America is rape rob and pillage. This is their turf. Their feeding grounds. In broad daylight they strut down the street with pillow cases of stolen good fully aware of the fact that Americans are too weak to do anything. These marauders know these Americans will cower in their homes waiting for big daddy police man to come to the rescue. Why do they know that? They have been doing it for decades. Read their rap sheet. They went anywhere they pleased did as they pleased because. Check out that little teeny bopper bitch now thats some sweet meat! Gonna TAKE me some of that. What were YOU going to do about it. Thats right! Nothing!! Now shut the F up punk we're taking what we want and hope you don't like it! Worst thing that could happen is Mr. Wimpy's policeman daddy would get there before they made their get away. If so, they'd be sent back home. Only to return as they always had. When this old fart came out with his shot gun talking smack they knew he would wet his panties and run as soon as they said boo. Thirty year old Colombian gangsters, thugs. Breast fed in South American prisons, raised on death & destruction, RAGE and hate. would crush this old man like a pasty gringo maggot beneath their boots. Deadly with any tool at hand they turned. Old Joe knew he had grabbed the lion by the tail.
When he saw the rippling panther arms, carved deadly, prison buff white knuckles gripping/clenching. Saw the hollow soul behind blazing enraged reptilian eyes he knew he was about to die
Seventy years ago, good boys helped elder ladies across the street. Boy scouts all. Eagle scouts even and proud of it. People looked you in the eyes, Said please and thank you. You helped your neighbor in times of need. Stopped to help strangers stranded on the road. WE were all Americans the best people on earth. WE cared and looked out for each other. Helped each other out. It was our obligation, our duty, our responsibility, as citizens. Part of the way we showed our appreciation and gratitude for the privilege for living in this Great Nation.
How stupid and lame is that? Even more pathetic is Joe Horn still lived in that America. The neighborhood grand pa whose door had always been open to anyone whose parents weren't home yet. Who anyone could go to in a time of need. Or at least that is what the neighbors who have known him all these decades say. Joe was the guy at the neighborhood barbecue who gleamed with pride when he told his immigrant neighbors now this is an American Hot Dog and This an American steak. As he also respectfully admired her grandmothers necklace that they brought had brought over from back home. He actually believed it was his job as an American to be a decent human being. His obligation his personal duty and responsibility to really care. HIs Identify. his Honor his Dignity demanded he do the right thing that day.
Now listen to the tapes again. Be an American, practice what we preach give Joe Horn the benefit of a doubt. He is the only American involved in this tragedy. Put yourself in his shoes. Pretend you have some honor and integrity, compassion for your neighbor and NOT driven solely by self interest. Listen to a desperate old man who is cornered by his own sense of duty and obligation. A man who really wants the police to deal with this. He desperately needs the police to hurry up. This is not a neighbor he is especially close too but he can not allow good people in his neighborhood to be violated. No matter what. He says "I can not let them just get away" What white racist vigilante killer has ever called 911 and say I am going to kill someone. Here listen to me load my gun. Get a grip. What he did say was in responce to the 911 operator telling him that if he went out there they would kill him. He tried to instill the same sense of urgency that he felt. The 911 operator exacerbated his already existing fear. Listen to the tape with an open mind you will hear his concern, his fear, his desperation yet he still does what to the core of his being he knows is his duty. What he must do. All the while thinking terrified
"Oh my God people are robbing my neighbor.
They are nice people, they work so hard.
Are they armed? I don't know, yes a crow bar. HURRY UP !! "
He steps out of the house tells them to stop. The police officer on the scene says they refused and went onto his property. It is a no brainer he did the right thing the only correct and just thing. IMO anyone who can not see that can not see past their selfish self interest and cowardice. I pray that should the day ever come that I have the courage and integrity to follow his exemplary example. Except for the 911 call of course
Oh to all those who use the shot in the back crap to insult an honorable man to make Mr horn out a coward. Grow up, you are exposing your lack of training and experience. Not a single combat warrior will ever say anything that stupid. Try going to a VA hospital and telling the warrior shot in the back he must have been turning tail and running away from the fight when he got shot. Lets see how long you are standing for letting that stupidity fall out of your mouth.
Take your head out of the TV this is not a movie. Get some training do some airsoft or paint ball force on force training see how many of your targets you shoot in the back. Better yet go to Iraq and tell us how many of your targets get shot in the back. Gunfights are not the pristine clean clear cut scripted events you imagine
Stop you don't know that person, mind you own business. Stand by, do nothing. while that woman is being raped. While that guy is beaten to death. Do nothing while your neighbor is being robbed. Who cares they are no relation to you. There was a time in America that was an aberration. When if that happened it made national news. A whole nation would shake its head in shame and disgust unable to comprehend the spineless sniveling cowards who would allow any such a deed.
We have now come full circle. Now there is an out cry when the neighborhood grand pa stands up against armed invaders from another nation whose only mission in America is rape rob and pillage. This is their turf. Their feeding grounds. In broad daylight they strut down the street with pillow cases of stolen good fully aware of the fact that Americans are too weak to do anything. These marauders know these Americans will cower in their homes waiting for big daddy police man to come to the rescue. Why do they know that? They have been doing it for decades. Read their rap sheet. They went anywhere they pleased did as they pleased because. Check out that little teeny bopper bitch now thats some sweet meat! Gonna TAKE me some of that. What were YOU going to do about it. Thats right! Nothing!! Now shut the F up punk we're taking what we want and hope you don't like it! Worst thing that could happen is Mr. Wimpy's policeman daddy would get there before they made their get away. If so, they'd be sent back home. Only to return as they always had. When this old fart came out with his shot gun talking smack they knew he would wet his panties and run as soon as they said boo. Thirty year old Colombian gangsters, thugs. Breast fed in South American prisons, raised on death & destruction, RAGE and hate. would crush this old man like a pasty gringo maggot beneath their boots. Deadly with any tool at hand they turned. Old Joe knew he had grabbed the lion by the tail.
When he saw the rippling panther arms, carved deadly, prison buff white knuckles gripping/clenching. Saw the hollow soul behind blazing enraged reptilian eyes he knew he was about to die
Seventy years ago, good boys helped elder ladies across the street. Boy scouts all. Eagle scouts even and proud of it. People looked you in the eyes, Said please and thank you. You helped your neighbor in times of need. Stopped to help strangers stranded on the road. WE were all Americans the best people on earth. WE cared and looked out for each other. Helped each other out. It was our obligation, our duty, our responsibility, as citizens. Part of the way we showed our appreciation and gratitude for the privilege for living in this Great Nation.
How stupid and lame is that? Even more pathetic is Joe Horn still lived in that America. The neighborhood grand pa whose door had always been open to anyone whose parents weren't home yet. Who anyone could go to in a time of need. Or at least that is what the neighbors who have known him all these decades say. Joe was the guy at the neighborhood barbecue who gleamed with pride when he told his immigrant neighbors now this is an American Hot Dog and This an American steak. As he also respectfully admired her grandmothers necklace that they brought had brought over from back home. He actually believed it was his job as an American to be a decent human being. His obligation his personal duty and responsibility to really care. HIs Identify. his Honor his Dignity demanded he do the right thing that day.
Now listen to the tapes again. Be an American, practice what we preach give Joe Horn the benefit of a doubt. He is the only American involved in this tragedy. Put yourself in his shoes. Pretend you have some honor and integrity, compassion for your neighbor and NOT driven solely by self interest. Listen to a desperate old man who is cornered by his own sense of duty and obligation. A man who really wants the police to deal with this. He desperately needs the police to hurry up. This is not a neighbor he is especially close too but he can not allow good people in his neighborhood to be violated. No matter what. He says "I can not let them just get away" What white racist vigilante killer has ever called 911 and say I am going to kill someone. Here listen to me load my gun. Get a grip. What he did say was in responce to the 911 operator telling him that if he went out there they would kill him. He tried to instill the same sense of urgency that he felt. The 911 operator exacerbated his already existing fear. Listen to the tape with an open mind you will hear his concern, his fear, his desperation yet he still does what to the core of his being he knows is his duty. What he must do. All the while thinking terrified
"Oh my God people are robbing my neighbor.
They are nice people, they work so hard.
Are they armed? I don't know, yes a crow bar. HURRY UP !! "
He steps out of the house tells them to stop. The police officer on the scene says they refused and went onto his property. It is a no brainer he did the right thing the only correct and just thing. IMO anyone who can not see that can not see past their selfish self interest and cowardice. I pray that should the day ever come that I have the courage and integrity to follow his exemplary example. Except for the 911 call of course
Oh to all those who use the shot in the back crap to insult an honorable man to make Mr horn out a coward. Grow up, you are exposing your lack of training and experience. Not a single combat warrior will ever say anything that stupid. Try going to a VA hospital and telling the warrior shot in the back he must have been turning tail and running away from the fight when he got shot. Lets see how long you are standing for letting that stupidity fall out of your mouth.
Take your head out of the TV this is not a movie. Get some training do some airsoft or paint ball force on force training see how many of your targets you shoot in the back. Better yet go to Iraq and tell us how many of your targets get shot in the back. Gunfights are not the pristine clean clear cut scripted events you imagine
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Well said, LongRider.
XDKingslayer
member
Another thing this brings to light is just how stupid the media can be.
The guy killed to burglars so let's bug him to the point that he has to put up no trespassing signs, signs not to ring the bell or knock on the door, and specific signs for no media...
+ a brazillion LongRider.
We had a guy in our platoon who had a Purple Heart. He was shot in the butt ala Forest Gump. We always gave him crap that the only way to get shot in the butt was to be running away. But we knew the truth. He was running away. He was running back into the building to get more ammo for the SAW. He happened to be the only one brave enough on that gun team to do it...
We were the only ones that gave him crap because he was one of us. Anyone else did so at their own demise.
The guy killed to burglars so let's bug him to the point that he has to put up no trespassing signs, signs not to ring the bell or knock on the door, and specific signs for no media...
+ a brazillion LongRider.
We had a guy in our platoon who had a Purple Heart. He was shot in the butt ala Forest Gump. We always gave him crap that the only way to get shot in the butt was to be running away. But we knew the truth. He was running away. He was running back into the building to get more ammo for the SAW. He happened to be the only one brave enough on that gun team to do it...
We were the only ones that gave him crap because he was one of us. Anyone else did so at their own demise.
rero360
Member
Here is my question on the matter, I've always thought, and quite possibly incorrectly that entering this country illegally was a federal offense, a felony. I've also always thought that you have the responsibilty as a citiven to stop a felony in progress, and the right to stop a felon from fleeing the scene of a crime.
So by that train of thought, you had two illegal aliens (granted he had no way of knowing their status as such) He was perfectly in his right to shoot on that merit alone. Granted they were also fleeing from the scene of other crimes as well, B&E, robbery, and all that.
Personally I think he did just fine, minus the talk with the 911 operator.
So by that train of thought, you had two illegal aliens (granted he had no way of knowing their status as such) He was perfectly in his right to shoot on that merit alone. Granted they were also fleeing from the scene of other crimes as well, B&E, robbery, and all that.
Personally I think he did just fine, minus the talk with the 911 operator.
Last edited:
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Just FYI.....not a felony.
US Code Title 8:
US Code Title 8:
bogie
Member
guys, scanning the news organizations for anything that involves "gun" or "shooting" seems to be the big activity here. Increasing your post count via this activity is NOT a way to gain credibility. Why don't some of y'all try just going shooting. You might find that you like it.
I am not sure that anyone is calling Mr. Horn a coward. The question was whether the autopsy data matched his story that the bad guys were advancing towards him when he fired.
Getting shot in the butt or the back makes perfect sense if you are running back to get ammo - the data matches the story.
The man in your platoon stated the he was running back from the source of fire (to go get ammo) - so we would expect him to be shot in the back of his torso.
In general, we would expect that a man running towards the source of fire to be shot in the front of the torso, and a man running back from the source of fire to be shot in the back of the torso.
At first glance, the Mr. Horn's story did not match the data - I was concerned that might be troublesome for him in the grand jury. If he had said that the men were running back from the source of fire, then his story would have matched the data. But he claimed (at least in published reports) that they were "advancing" towards him (the source of fire).
The concern I expressed was that Mr. Horn might have some trouble in the grand jury because his story didn't appear to match the facts of the autopsy.
Either the there was an explanation for how men "advancing on him" could have been shot in the back, or the grand jury didn't care - two bad guys were dead and that was OK.
At any rate, at least in my mind, the question as to whether they were shot in the back or not did not have anything to do with cowardice - just geometry.
Mike
RonE
Member
While I am glad to see Joe Horn be judged "justified" in his actions, that is over now.
My questions are: What were the two guys stealing? I seem to recall that they entered the neighbors house and left with a bag.....
What about the neighbors? Who are they, where were they, did they have any connection with the two that Joe shot? (What made the theives pick THAT house?) Were drugs involved?
The press and public seem to concentrate on only the shooting, not what led up to it and why.
My questions are: What were the two guys stealing? I seem to recall that they entered the neighbors house and left with a bag.....
What about the neighbors? Who are they, where were they, did they have any connection with the two that Joe shot? (What made the theives pick THAT house?) Were drugs involved?
The press and public seem to concentrate on only the shooting, not what led up to it and why.
XDKingslayer
member
I don't agree with that at all.
There are quite a few people that can accept the outcome of a "him or me" situation just fine.
The fact that they can deal with it on a different level then most people doesn't make them any less human.
I've known plenty of fellow Marines who have killed and it simply doesn't bother them. They know it was them or the other guy, they know they made the right choice, and it doesn't weigh heavy on them.
You know what bothered them the most? People telling them that it SHOULD effect them and that they SHOULD feel bad or feel remorse. People who rode their couch and felt those soldiers were less human then everyone else because they did exactly what they were trained to do and that it didn't bother them.
Last edited:
ashtxsniper
Member
It doesnt matter. What these guys where doing is illegal. There lives had no value and there only purpase in life was to bring society down. I am glad Horn killed them and I hope more people do the same thing. On top of all this they were illegals and as most of you know I have no love at all for illegals.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked