Maybe you were wrong about Pocket Pistols

[Jeb Stuart]

Finally, after years of being a proponent of Pocket guns, this is music to my ears. Lucky Gunner will be doing a series featuring them and why they are a viable tool in today's society. I have advocated heavy training with them for years. Most shooters have disagreed. Maybe, some will change their mind after this?





https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/

 

[herrwalther]

Bandwagon article. The last decade(?) pretty much every maker has made a pocket pistol of some flavor. With pocket guns flying off shelves even die hards would show a wavering opinion piece now and then.

 

[Dibbs]

I don't think it will change a whole lot of people's minds. IMO, there's some creedence to the
principle. For years, 32 caliber was fine, but now, suddenly, it's not enough?

 

[Boarhunter]

And I sit here in my easy chair with a Smith 43C .22 revolver in my front pocket....

BOARHUNTER

 

[somethingbenign]

Minds probably won't be changed by this, maybe after a decade of mounting statistics and publications but I think the firearms community and especially the defensive mind part are slow to change. The first bit in the video about how the industry is rooted in military and police really spoke to me. A good friend of mine used to be a cop and I like to sit and talk CCW points a bunch with him. As much as I value his opinion it is clear his mindset is still geared to protect everyone around him and I'm squarely in the "friends and family" mindset. I also really like the distinction that if an attacker flees it is still a win for the defensive party, I get really frustrated when fellow carriers seem more focused on ending a life than ending a fight. Sometimes those two things are the same but not always and I feel it can damage our image as a community when talking to certain individuals. I'm getting into a much large scope of thought though. All I want is for us to not eat our own if God forbid someone's very individual circumstances determine that a "small caliber handgun" is the best tool for them. As more women get into carrying we need to keep this in mind. I know my wife's needs and circumstances are much different than my own and I already have knocked LGS off the list when she is ready to pick out a gun for herself because of the attitudes they have towards this sort of thing.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I'm not necessarily against the idea of carrying a pocket pistol but I don't understand why somebody would settle for a 7 shot 380 when there are any number of pocket sized 9mm pistols available.

One thing I noticed over and over again in the video was the use of qualifiers like "probably" and "Most of the time" and "should be" . I don't see that as an endorsement of a small caliber pocket gun as EDC. I see it as a statement that those are the guns you carry when you can't carry something bigger.

Claude Werner says that I have a different mission than the police and and to a large degree he's right but I don't get to pick if my assailant is going to break contact and it's highly likely that he's going to have experienced more violent encounters than I have.

It's also very likely that I'm not the first person that ever pointed a gun at him or shot at or shot him. So I can't assume but just seeing my .380 is going to make the guy run away. In fact I've had to draw a full size M&P on people in the course of my job and I've had them DARE me to shoot them.

The other thing that Claude Werner talks about in the video is that small caliber pocket pistols require more training to use well. I find that training really isn't something that most gun owners are willing to invest a lot of time and energy into. Especially not the type of gun owner who is only willing to carry an LCP as a primary firearm.

I've actually had to defend myself with a handgun. Based on my training and experience I assume if it ever happens again I'm going to be facing two assailants and I'm not willing to do that with an LCP or a Glock 42 or even a J Frame.

 

[DPris]

After extensive discussion of this video & premise on another forum, I'm too pooped to repeat it.

Suffice to say that, as a retired career cop & professional gun evaluator of 29 years, my experiences combine to prevent me from carrying a pocket gun unless I absolutely have to, and then I feel quite uncomfortable & distinctly undergunned when I do.

I have seen sufficient evidence, personally, to persuade me that caliber does make a difference, placement is NOT everything, and never, ever, ever can or should you depend on the mere display of a gun to end aggression toward you.

I own the same .25 Beretta pictured at the beginning of the video, and either own or have experience with others depicted.
I've seen what TENDS to work more often than what TENDS not to work.

I have not seen anything that persuades me a .25, a .32, or a .380 is effective & reliable enough to bet my life on.
Please don't even try to tell me an NAA .22 single-action snub is an adequate defensive shield.
Yes- people have died from all of the above.
People have also died from rocks, hammers, knives, baseball bats, and ice-picks. What's your point?

I've talked to two very-alive shooting victims of .22s. One in the ER, where the victim was merely annoyed with his leg wound from a fight, the other in a restaurant, of all places, a year or so after the shooting. He was still debating whether or not to get the bullet removed from his chest.

And please don't quote odds as justification for not carrying a more effective gun/caliber.
Yes- the odds of you never being in a life-threatening encounter at all during your entire existence are very much in your favor.
Which is exactly the same thing all those now-dead people thought leading right up the point where the wrong side of the odds killed 'em.
Same deal with seatbelts. Odds are highly in your favor of never getting into a car accident, too, so why bother with seatbelts? Ask all those now-dead victims ejected & killed during not-their-fault accidents about odds.

The video may have led the two commentators to draw their conclusions, my experiences have drawn me to mine.
And mine are very much not theirs.
Denis

 

[Tallball]

It's not my preferred CC handgun, but I carry my LCP sometimes. Lots of time it's in my shirt pocket. There isn't a 9mm pistol that you can carry in your shirt pocket.

 

[DPris]

I don't need to carry my defensive pistol in a shirt pocket, so that selection criteria is irrelevant.
I can carry an M80 firecracker in my shirt pocket, too, but that doesn't mean it's the best defensive tool I can come up with.
And there ARE 9mms you can carry in your pants pocket.
Denis

 

[Trunk Monkey]

It's not my preferred CC handgun, but I carry my LCP sometimes. Lots of time it's in my shirt pocket. There isn't a 9mm pistol that you can carry in your shirt pocket.

I carried an M&P Shield in the shirt pocket of my Remington hunting shirt when I used to wear it while I was riding my bike

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Most of us are not Police. The video goes into real life situations where it is not practical to carry something more than a Pocket pistol. I use to coach runners for decades. We had a park that runners would train in. 10 miles though the woods. A number of rapes occurred over the years as the area was desolated to some extent. I advised the females to think about CCW a small pocket gun or at least mace. So what were they suppose to carry? A gun weighing a few pounds? Am I really going to strap on a big gun just to go down to 7/ll for a container of milk, walk the dog. I wonder how many cops liked carrying around a large heavy object every day on their side?
My wife had a situation where some maniac was trying to bust her window and get to her because of road rage. and at the time she had my young son in the car. She had a pocket pistol and said if he had to, she would have let loose with 7 rounds to the chest and face. Sorry she will not carry a large gun. Just not going to happen.May if she had been forced to make that decision, the 7 shots to the face and chest would have just made the attacker laugh. I doubt it. Maybe it is time to get real. You carry what you can for real life every day work, business and pleasure. I go to the beach often. No I do not strap a large weapon down my swimming trunks. I use to work in a office environment that did have a policy about firearms on premise. I did keep a pocket gun, Not worth losing my job over and not being able to feed my family just to make a statement.
A 380 modern day cartridge is a tool. It is a defensive tool.
Too be honest. If I had to go though life every day of Carrying a big heavy weapon, I most likely would not do it. It would not be practical. I would just think about mace or whatever. There is the way it should be and there is the way it is.No one likes to make concessions, but alas, sometimes you have too.
But if you are going to carry a pocket gun. Why not master it and become proficient with it?
Why not keep a open mind and watch the series?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Most of us are not Police. The video goes into real life situations where it is not practical to carry something more than a Pocket pistol.

Nobody's saying never carry a pocket pistol. In fact, as I write this I'm sitting in my car at work with a Glock 26 in my pocket. You said it yourself a pocket pistol is what you carry when carrying something else is impractical. That's not the same as carrying a pocket pistol as your primary carry gun. In my real life I have no problem concealing a Glock 19 and 2 reloads. In fact compared to all the crap I have to carry to work it's like it's not even there.

. I use to coach runners for decades. We had a park that runners would train in. 10 miles though the woods. A number of rapes occurred over the years as the area was desolated to some extent. I advised the females to think about CCW a small pocket gun or at least mace. So what were they suppose to carry? A gun weighing a few pounds?

Why not? I used to carry an S&W 6906 when I went running. For that matter when I was younger I ran 10 miles every other day with 5-pound weights on each foot and let's not forget those wonderful days in the Army when they made us run 5 miles with an M16 and God help you if you dropped it.

Having said that though, if that area was that desolate in that dangerous to run in I'd have found someplace else to run.

Am I really going to strap on a big gun just to go down to 7/ll for a container of milk, walk the dog.

Define "big". When I get dressed in the morning I put my Glock 26 in one pocket and a reload in the other and it stays there until I go to bed at night. I carry it when I walk the dogs. If my wife asks me to go to Walmart to pick up a gallon of milk hey guess what it's already in my pocket.

If we're actually going out then yes I put on my Glock 19 and 2 reloads. It's non-negotiable.

I wonder how many cops liked carrying around a large heavy object every day on their side?

Not that I'm a cop but you'd be amazed how comforting that large heavy object is when you're checking doors at City Hall at 3 in the morning and you find an unlocked door that's not supposed to be unlocked. Or when you're walking around a sub station in the middle of the night and you find a car that's not supposed to be there parked right next to the fence and whether you want to or not you have to find out who's in it and what they're doing there

My wife had a situation where some maniac was trying to bust her window and get to her because of road rage. and at the time she had my young son in the car. She had a pocket pistol and said if he had to, she would have let loose with 7 rounds to the chest and face. Sorry she will not carry a large gun. Just not going to happen.May if she had been forced to make that decision, the 7 shots to the face and chest would have just made the attacker laugh. I doubt it.

So what happens, seriously, when your wife does unload all 7 rounds and the mainiac doesn't stop? Because guess what that actually happens often enough that in real life you'd better plan for it.

Maybe it is time to get real. You carry what you can for real life every day work, business and pleasure.

I'm very real. Like I said I'm not a cop I'm private security but I've been working nights for the last 10 years and I watch the vermin crawl out of the sewers every night and I know that my city is full of tweakers. And I'm not comfortable under those circumstances carrying anything smaller than a double stack 9 millimeter. A single stack 9 mm is what I carry in my pocket if I'm going to be in an NPE when I can't carry something more substantial.

I go to the beach often. No I do not strap a large weapon down my swimming trunks.

No beaches in Colorado you got me there.

I use to work in a office environment that did have a policy about firearms on premise. I did keep a pocket gun, Not worth losing my job over and not being able to feed my family just to make a statement.

Number one that's exactly the type of environment that I've stated numerous times that it pocket pistol is designed for.

Number two if I was that concerned about losing my job I wouldn't carry any gun at all.

A 380 modern day cartridge is a tool. It is a defensive tool.

A finish hammer is a tool was well but it's not the tool that I'd choose to frame a house.

Too be honest. If I had to go though life every day of Carrying a big heavy weapon, I most likely would not do it. It would not be practical. I would just think about mace or whatever.

Again, define "Big". It's been my experience if you're not willing to carry anything bigger than a little pocket gun you probably don't really think you're ever going to need to use it. I have had to use my gun. I know beyond question how real the possibility is and as I said upthread I'm not willing to face a tweaker in the middle of the night with a 7 shot 380.

There is the way it should be and there is the way it is.No one likes to make concessions, but alas, sometimes you have too.

Which is what I've said multiple times in this thread.

 

[MedWheeler]

somethingbenign writes:

A good friend of mine used to be a cop and I like to sit and talk CCW points a bunch with him. As much as I value his opinion it is clear his mindset is still geared to protect everyone around him and I'm squarely in the "friends and family" mindset. I also really like the distinction that if an attacker flees it is still a win for the defensive party, I get really frustrated when fellow carriers seem more focused on ending a life than ending a fight.

I've been saying much of this for a long time, and I "used to be a cop", too. The mission of the cop and that of the LAC are indeed different. Another point often left out by the "carry as the cops and military carry" crowd is self-extraction, something that is almost always an option after defensive fire takes place. Bad guys know that would-be victims are less likely to pursue them if they flee than cops are, which is why shoot-outs between cops and suspects tend to be more prolonged than those between suspects and their intended robbery or rape victims.

All that being said, I know I won't be able to suppress the "sheepdog" mentality in me, and I'm comfortable with carrying something bigger than a typical pocket gun most of the time, so I actually do. The only times I carry solely in the pocket is while traveling to and from my no-carry work site. Then, it's a Kel-Tec P32, loaded with eleven rounds. That gun, with its seven-round magazine in place, backs up whatever is on my hip most of the rest of the time I'm carrying, and that hip gun is typically something in .38, 9mm Luger, or .45ACP.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Why not? I used to carry an S&W 6906 when I went running. For that matter when I was younger I ran 10 miles every other day with 5-pound weights on each foot and let's not forget those wonderful days in the Army when they made us run 5 miles with an M16 and God help you if you dropped it.

Having said that though, if that area was that desolate in that dangerous to run in I'd have found someplace else to run.

I really hope you know more about firearms than you do competitive running. And running (by the way, you were NOT running) 10 miles with 5lbs of weights on each leg sounds like the most foolish thing I have ever heard.

 

[Pat Riot]

I carry a pocket gun. I also have other guns to carry but this thread isn’t about that, is it?

I carry either a S&W 442 or a Remington RM380. I carry the Remington more because it suits me and it’s easier to pack around and conceal.
For a short time I carried a Kel Tec P3AT. Most painful little shooter I have ever experienced. That thing pinched my finger and slammed my finger with every pull of the trigger. I sold it because practice was was not something to look forward to. Also, the magazine release was too easy to activate in my pocket.

My RM380 has never had a malfunction with any ammo I have used. It’s reliable and I trust it...with my life.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I really hope you know more about firearms than you do competitive running. And running with 5lbs of weights on each leg sounds like the most foolish thing I have ever heard.

It worked though. And I'm positive that you know more about competitive running than you do about firearms

 

[Jeb Stuart]

It worked though. And I'm positive that you know more about competitive running than you do about firearms

I bet you feel positive about a lot of things you know nothing about.

 

[jar]

I'm not necessarily against the idea of carrying a pocket pistol but I don't understand why somebody would settle for a 7 shot 380 when there are any number of pocket sized 9mm pistols available.

Maybe we choose such guns because we have such guns and we like such guns and have been using such guns for many many decades.

 

[somethingbenign]

You guys are right, pocket pistols aren't for first time shooters and they take work to master. For me a 380 pocket is a bunch easier to handle effectively than 9 pockets I've tried. With trying to pay off my wife's student loans and myself working full-time plus taking classes I can manage going to the range reliably once or twice a month. In my situation a pocket 380 and its ease of handling fits better to my needs. When I can train more often I do intend to pick up a pocket 9 and put some time into learning it but I'm just not there yet.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Maybe we choose such guns because we have such guns and we like such guns and have been using such guns for many many decades.

Using such guns or walking around with them in your pocket?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I carry a pocket gun. I also have other guns to carry but this thread isn’t about that, is it?

Actually this thread is about that because the OP made it about that.

He's using the video to advance the argument that all you really need to carry is a pocket gun because Claude Werner said it will probably work most of the time. Unless it doesn't.

No one else is telling you or the OP that you shouldn't carry a pocket gun. We've merely stated why we're not willing to if we have any other choice

 

[jar]

Using such guns or walking around with them in your pocket?

It depends on what "using them" means but certainly relying on them, walking around with them in pocket or on my hip, openly or concealed and enjoying them. In fact I can say that I rely on 22, 7.65, 38S&W, .380, 9mm Mak and 38 Special more often then 9mm, 45acp, 45 Colt 357 Magnum, 44 Special & 44 Magnum and revolvers more often than semi-automatics. I have a variety of choices available, in fact slightly more choices in the later more often recommended caliber group than the former but what I tend to carry are examples from the former caliber group.

Given the choice to carry a five or six shot revolver and a Glock 19 I'll take the wheel gun every time.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

You know What Trunk Monkey, you are making a whole lot of statements that are nothing short of BS. I am the OP and I am NOT using the video to advance that all you need is a pocket gun. On the contrary. I could care less what you carry. I am simply using the video that it is my belief that some folks may for various reasons carry one. And the important thing is the ability to use one. I also believe they are NOT for beginners. They are hard to shoot, take a lot of training etc. By the way Monkey, I do carry a 9mm when possible and I train diligently with all my carry guns. At least once a week. And almost every time I go to the range with any firearm, the Pocket gun will get some training in. Even if it is just 25 rds. Please quite telling me what you believe I am saying.
I highly suggest you do not listen or view the series. You would not learn a thing or even try to. It would be a total waste of time for you. By the way Monkey, here are my EDC and please, notice the 9mm's.There are three in that bunch. Not featured are other guns like Compacts and large frame pistols and revolvers that I own but do not carry except on rare occasions.
And I do carry the 9mm at every opportunity that I can and is convenient to do so. Pay attention to what you read.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Given the choice to carry a five or six shot revolver and a Glock 19 I'll take the wheel gun every time.

What if the choice is between a revolver and a Glock 26?

 

[jar]

What if the choice is between a revolver and a Glock 26?

Revolver.