MBC's policy on shipping to California vis AB962

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We have made the decision to continue shipping into California. I ENCOURAGE ALL OTHER BULLET CASTING COMPANIES TO DO THE SAME in order to keep the gun owners there supplied with the bullets they need in order to exercise their immutable (except in California) Second Amendment rights.

I will admit that doing this makes me feeling like I'm helping with the Berlin Airlift.

Brad
 
Has anything been said about reloading components being sold or even going to another state and bringing factory loaded ammo into California?
 
First of all, thanks Brad.

I think many people/vendors misunderstood the details of Assembly Bill 962 and are taking the wrong position on the issue. I hope this will help explain the confusion/concern. I will site excerpts from the State Attorney General's website and California Penal Codes (Penal Code, Part 4, Title 2, Chapter 2.6 - Ammunition, Section 12316-12323).

Overview:
AB 962 requires, starting February 1, 2011, face-to-face sale and related record keeping of handgun ammunition sold in California to prevent/limit purchase of large quantities of concealable handgun ammunition by criminals and gang members to aid in their crimes of convenience (law maker who introduced the bill was quite upset that criminals/gang members who were prohibited from possessing firearms simply walked into Walmart and walked out with ammunition to commit crime). The bill originally had 50 rounds/month limit, but this language was removed from the final bill (which would only have decreased the tax revenue for the state). ;) The bill amended Section 12316 and added to Sections 12317/12318 of the "Ammunition" chapter of the Penal Code.

New and Amended California Firearms Legislation from Attorney General's website:
- Any person who is enjoined from engaging in activity associated with a criminal street gang is prohibited from possessing ammunition. A violation is a misdemeanor. (§ 12316.)

- Beginning February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer of handgun ammunition must occur in a face-to-face transaction, with the recipient providing bona fide evidence of his or her identity and age, subject to specified exceptions. Non-face-to-face transfers, such as internet transactions and mail order deliveries are prohibited. A violation is a misdemeanor.

The definition of "handgun ammunition" is the source of concern for law abiding reloaders and the bill refers to subdivision (a) of Section 12323:

12323. As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall
apply:

(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in
pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed
upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001,
notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.


Section 12316:
Where people run into trouble is Section 12316 (b)(2) that states, "(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence. 'Ammunition' does not include blanks." BUT 12316 (b)(2) applies only to subdivision 12316 (b) which addresses illegal possession of firearm/ammunition by person who is prohibited from possessing them:
(b) (1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm
under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103
of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have
under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.

Rest of the subdivision (3) - (5) deal with subsequent penalties.


Section 12317:

Section 12317 (c) addresses selling ammunition to persons who are prohibited from possessing firearms/ammunition as mentioned in (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316 and subsequent penalties.


Section 12318:
Section 12318 is the core of AB 962 and states:
(b) For purposes of this section:

(2) "Handgun ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in
subdivision (a) of Section 12323

Once again, the definition from subdivision (a) of section 12323 states:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in
pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed
upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001,
notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.


Conclusion:
AB 962 was meant to prevent/limit criminals/gang members from simply walking into retail stores to buy large quantities of concealable handgun ammunition to commit crime. As defined in each section and subdivision, AB 962 definition of handgun ammunition refers to "loaded" handgun ammunition and the bill does not mention the sale of reloading components online (these sales are invoiced and documented by the vendors anyways). Face-to-face sales of handgun ammunition was meant to verify the identity of the buyer and document the purchase.

I am not an attorney, so if you want proper legal advise, please seek out the assistance of a competent legal counsel.

I hope this helped.
 
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I suspect that before too long there will be a publication from BATF to all class 6 license holders that will clarify the interpertation. There can also be addtional restrictions or different interpertations as imposed by the BATF under this ruling. I too will continue to ship to CA untill I hear different from the BATF on the matter.
 
I got some clarification from those more knowledgeable.

Chapter covers the entire section and section covers the entire subdivision.

(Penal Code = Part > Title > Chapter > Section > Subdivision > Paragraph)


AB 962 states in Section 12318, Subdivision (b), Paragraph (2):
(b) For purposes of this section:

(2) "Handgun ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in
subdivision (a) of Section 12323

And under Chapter 2.6 - Ammunition, Section 12323, Subdivision (a):
12323. As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall
apply:

(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in
pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed
upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001,
notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

However, Section 12316, Subdivision (b), Paragraph (2) specifies "this subdivision of 12316":
(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence. 'Ammunition' does not include blanks."

And Section 12317 specifies Paragraph "(1) or (4) of subdivision of 12316":
... any ammunition or reloaded ammunition pursuant to
paragraph (1) or (4) of subdivision (b) of Section 12316

My opinion is that the intent of AB 962 applies to the loaded handgun cartridge and not the individual components. As to Sections 12316/12317, they address applicable subdivisions of 12316 and AB 962 does not require face-to-face sale of magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile - only handgun ammunition. Update 1/12/11: After some more discussion tonight with another reloader, I decided to remove the Federal definition of ammunition.
 
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Heh :D

I just had a funny thought sorta related to this topic. Can you imagine what it would be like if this CA law actually drove the gangs to get into the reloading and/or ammo business? :)

They would be smuggling in cast bullets from the midwest by the truckload, knocking off powder warehouses, etc. They would set up dealer networks in the cities. "Hey buddy, wanna buy 1000 primers? Top stuff, you know it's from Russia. Only $1 apiece for you". :D

Shoot, what would limit them to simple smuggling operations? If they can manufacture meth, I can see them setting up illegal lead casting cooking operations as well. And I can imagine them setting up in an old warehouse and cranking out 1000's and thousands of 9 mm rounds everyday. They might be so bold as to get custom made cardboard boxes with their gang logos emlbazoned on them. That would lead to the never-ending debate regarding whether the Hell's Angels brand ammo is more consistent than the cheaper Bloods brand ammo and whether the higher priced Aryan Brotherhood ammo is worth the price. :D

Well, it is kind of funny, but actually when I think about it, traditionally whenever the government has tried to restrict the purchase of any item whether it is drugs, alcohol, you name it, then the criminal element has stepped in to profit.
 
bds interpertation of federal law is in error. Ammunition as defined by the BATF includes not only the loaded cartridge as ammunition but also all the componet parts. That's why all mfg. of loaded ammuntion and mfg. of componet parts (primers . brass, bullets, powder) require the federal class 6 license.
The subdivision 12316 specfically states "bullet" and that can be interpeted as part of the ban. That's why we need the clarification from the BATF with regards to the law. Theirs will be the decision whether or not we can continue after the ban goes into place.
 
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It's a new state law, so I believe the enforcement would come from the state and not Federal BATF. And that's why I posted state Attorney General's web page information.

Also, I think it would help not using the generic term "bullet" in reference to the component "projectile" as the term can be confusing between the loaded cartridge vs individual components.
 
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I called the California Bureau Of Firearms. They said there was no problem with me bringing MY ammo and handguns to CA for some range sessions. (After 2/1) :)
 
That's why all mfg. of loaded ammuntion and mfg. of componet parts (primers . brass, bullets, powder) require the federal class 6 license.
Don't forget ITAR. Same deal. Failure to have the license is worth a million bucks and ten years in the federal hoosegow. $2250.00 but cheap when you consider the alternative, eh? But a nice side benefit of it is that it lets us export internationally.
 
Unfortunately, OOIDA v. Lindley (OWNER-OPERATOR INDEPENDENT DRIVERS ASSOCIATION, INC., ERIK ROYCE, BRANDON ELIAS, FOLSOM SHOOTING CLUB, INC., THE CALGUNS FOUNDATION, INC., and NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION, INC. vs. STEVE LINDLEY; THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA; THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE) was dismissed on 12/2/10:

Plaintiffs' claims are not ripe for review. They cannot demonstrate any current harm or a sufficiently immediate concern. No one can yet anticipate how California's bill will affect Plaintiffs and/or their business. No case or controversy exists at this time.

It will be interesting what happens after 2/1/11 if there is a significant group of businesses that can in fact demonstrate losses/decreases in their business due to this bill.

We had a discussion at work about this issue and as for the ammunition definition, the consensus was that since the state Attorney General's office would be the enforcement authority for the State of California, if there was any "interpreted" or "implied" legality of online sales of reloading components, Attorney General's office would have made that point clear on their "New and Amended California Firearms Legislation" web page.

"Chapter 2.6 - Ammunition" of the Penal Code clearly mentions "ammunition or reloaded ammunition" and if the bill's intent was to restrict/ban also the online sales of reloading components, it would have been clearly mentioned on the Attorney General's web page - but it does not.

As to the concern over criminals/gang members reloading ammunition, that's not the scope of this bill.

Here's a link to a thread that is listing businesses that will/will not ship ammunition/reloading components to California after 2/1/11. It's interesting to note why some business won't ship "permitted" items like rifle ammunition to California.

Perhaps THR can start another will/will not ship list. If you have any concerns, load up on your supplies before 2/1/11!

Will ship reloading components to California:

Missouri Bullet Company
Penn Bullets
 
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I think most companies will figure this out and ship to CA. Some will just hang back and let others test the water.
 
If this becomes an issue for componets as it already is for ammo, it might be worthwhile if all the mfgs. and distributors were to get together and file a class action suit against CA as a violation not only of 2nd ammendment rights but of restriction of interstate commerace of perfectly legal items.
I'd put in for this one.
 
Looks like the definition of "handgun ammunition" will be defined for Parker v. California case soon (before February 1, 2011) to alleviate confusion by vendors whether they can ship non-handgun ammunitions and reloading components to California. So Brad and Robert, you guys won't be in any danger of violating AB 962, if there was any misunderstanding what "ammunition vs reloading components" meant.

Declaration of Clay Parker:
1. I am the duly elected Sheriff for the County of Tehama, California. ...
2. I am responsible for enforcing federal, state, and local laws within the County of Tehama, including Penal Code sections 12060, 12061, and 12318.
4. I do not know what types of ammunition are principally for use in a handgun.
5. Without any further guidelines as to what types of ammunition are "handgun ammunition" under Penal Code sections 12060, 12061, and 12318, I am unable to enforce these laws because I do not know what types of ammunitions are "handgun ammunition."

Here's a post from attorney Clint Monfort:
We will have a final ruling in the NRA/CRPA challenge to the face-to-face and registration/thumbprint requirements BEFORE February 1st. The case is moving forward at light speed to make sure that happens. The case will be ruled on by January 18th or a few days from then.

Clint Monfort
MICHEL & ASSOCIATES, P.C.
Attorneys at Law
Los Angeles Office

Once the definition of handgun ammunition is established, there may be revision of various sections in Chapter 2.6 - Ammunition of the Penal Code. From what I have read so far, all mention/usage of "ammunition" indicated loaded cartridge and not components.
 
Great news!

Fresno Superior Court ruled today that AB 962 was "unconstitutionally vague" and all ammunition sales to california (including online or mail order) can continue immediately.
 
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