Me or the Powder

[emptybrass]

First real try at developing loads using my new My Lab Radar. I loaded 4 batches of 15 rounds of 45 Auto with 230 gr Rainier RN plated bullets over Unique powder. The four groups represent 5.2 gr, 5.6 gr, 5.9 gr and 6.2 gr. I set the target at 30 feet and shot freehand using by XD Compact 45. I also loaded four groups of 15 with the same powder charge pushing a Hornady 230 gr jacketed hollow point. The basic group trends repeated with the second batch. At first I though I was just being a sloppy shooter with the first batch as the groups moved to the left and opened up some as I progressed. When I shot the next batch, the same target results happened. I had a tight group at first and then it began to open up and move left. I have a handgun rest, and maybe I should use it, but I wanted to see what the rounds would do in my hand if I had to shoot off range. So, tell me is it me, or the gun, or something else - or is it just a gun range mystery?

Group 1 by Randy Digby, on Flickr

Group 2 by Randy Digby, on Flickr

Group 3 by Randy Digby, on Flickr

Group 4 by Randy Digby, on Flickr

 

[TfflHndn]

Could be a mix of fatigue and anticipating the shot, along with losing focus on the front sight. I generally find that if I start peeking downrange instead of saying focused on the front sight post, my groups open up. Usually happens later in the shooting session when it happens. Assuming that your grip and trigger finger placement are consistent, you could be slightly anticipating the shot, and pushing the gun a bit. I'd make sure my focus is solid on the front sight and then concentrate on not anticipating the trigger break and see if that brings the group back where you want it.

 

[TimSr]

A rest will take away the question about the most questionable variable.

 

[243winxb]

From a rest, 10 shots @ 50 feet should go into 3" or better. Target loads, using Bullseye powder.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Generally, for a right handed shooter, when the groups start moving left, or left and low, it indicates squeezing the whole hand while pulling the trigger. By moving the ring and pinky fingers, the middle finger becomes the fulcrum, just like a teeter totter. It gets more pronounced with shooter fatigue. Concentrate on just moving the trigger finger straight to the rear, while maintaining a firm grip.

Shooting from a rest and maintaining good trigger and grip control will eliminate the other variables, too.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[LiveLife]

How does the gun normally shoot?

Without a known reference point, it's hard for us to determine if it's the gun, load or the shooter.

When I develop a new load, I compare accuracy with known accurate loads. My known accurate reference loads with W231/HP-38 and Red Dot/Promo will produce 1" groups @ 15 yards and around 2" - 3" groups @ 25 yards with my Sig 1911.

If I am not getting accuracy with new loads, I will shoot my reference loads. If my reference load shot groups are good, I will blame the new loads. If my reference load shot groups are bad, I will blame the shooter.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So, tell me is it me, or the gun, or something else

Without more information, my vote would be that it is the shooter, because:

I set the target at 30 feet

That's only 10 yards

At 10 yards, almost any load with group inside 2"

Plus:

the groups moved to the left and opened up some as I progressed.

Is very common due to anticipation, peeping at the target, or just fatigue

 

[2ndAmendmentNut]

In my opinion any and all load development needs to start with a rest. After satisfactory results have been achieved at the rest, then you can move to shooting freehand to truly familiarize yourself with the load.

Unique is a good powder. Some of my most accurate 45cal loads have been with unique.

 

[Load Master]

Where is the data from your Labradar? What is the standard deviation of each group? What are the velocities?

With mine, I maintain good groups with std/dev of 12 or less.

 

[emptybrass]

Thanks to all for your posts. The standard deviation for the four groups shown was 22.05, 35.11, 30.45 and 17.45 - not good. I'm now reloading the full groups again, this time working to get my powder charges more consistent within a test group. I'm planing on making 15 rounds per set, shooting 10 for the chrono and the other five using a bench rest. I've got some carpal tunnel pain in my right wrist (right handed) and I may be giving in to it more than I thought. The bench rest should take that variable away. I'm doing these test round on my single stage, so fine tuning the powder throws should help the SD.

Thanks again for your time, and if I get to the range before too long, I'll post the results.

 

[243winxb]

A striker fired , combat type gun is not going to produce groups like a single action 1911 target type. Taking that into consideration, your doing ok. Will be interesting to see if benchrest makes a huge difference?

 

[9mmepiphany]

A striker fired , combat type gun is not going to produce groups like a single action 1911 target type.

50 yard group from Apex Tactical tuned S&W M&P9

[resize=550] [/resize]

Different forum (pistol forum.com), different M&P9, at 25 yards
[resize=350] [/resize]

 

[Walkalong]

Shoot a five shot group with each load. Do it again. Then do it a third time. See if there is a pattern. One group per load means very little unless you are very good.

If you are fatigued or just having an off day, be patient, and retest later.

 

[mdi]

Well, all my guns are fairly precision instruments. All my powders are consistent quality controlled propellants. All my bullets are consistent, diameter and weight. So, when something starts happening, I'm usually the culprit. For testing I load and shoot many more than the "standard" three shot or five shot groups; 14 rounds for my 1911s, 16 for my Garand, 12 for my Ruger SBH etc. Two cylinders full or two magazines full (I'll only go 10-12 for my high capacity 9mms). This removes a lot of my variations and give me a good indication of what the load is doing...

 

[LiveLife]

Shoot a five shot group with each load. Do it again. Then do it a third time. See if there is a pattern. One group per load means very little unless you are very good.

If you are fatigued or just having an off day, be patient, and retest later.

+1

We all have good days and bad days.

When I am fine tuning loads for accuracy, I do not use one range test results. I will confirm accuracy with subsequent range tests 2-3 times or more. While I will use 5 shot groups for load development (to minimize test rounds loaded), I will shoot 10-20 round groups to verify accuracy of fine tuned loads.

30 feet and shot freehand using by XD Compact 45

Even at 10 yards, shooting a compact pistol free hand will add more shooter variables and use of pistol rest minimizes shooter variable. Simply resting my hands on a small ice chest does a good job of reducing flyers and reducing shot group size.

With my compact PT145 SA/DA shooting free hand, even with smooth SA trigger, I must exercise care to produce accuracy at 10-15 yards but with fullsize Sig 1911 with cleaner SA trigger, I can produce accuracy with less care on my part.

 

[243winxb]

Accuracy

https://www.americanrifleman.org/ Would be nice if all 9s grouped like the photos above. But the NRA American Rifleman Magzine tests tell a different accuracy story. http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/library/FirearmsReloading102/9MM%20Accuracy