Messy 650XL

[CMV]

SO taking a little break...this press has frustrated the bejeezus out of me today. If it can be disassembled, cleaned, lubed, reassembled, it had been done today. Ughhh....just one thing after another.....figure out why it's misbehaving.....load 50 rds....new problem.....tinker with that until it goes away....do 50 more....repeat.

Anyway, so far every problem has been resolved with something too tight or too loose, or something just needing taken apart, cleaned, & reassembled (although nothing was particularly dirty).

2 problems remain & I'm sort of at a loss. Dillon's call center hours are same as my work hours M-F, so don't have a chance to call & get their help until next Sat. I could call on lunch break or something but not being in front of machine would waste both our time...

Anyway, problem 1 I think is contributing to other issues. I get everything spotless, then in short order I have powder everywhere. Yeah, sometimes self-inflicted not noticing something didn't take a primer but getting better at the self-inflicted messes. Spent a lot of time tinkering with powder measure assuming that's what was making the mess. But it's coming from the shells moving to stations 3 & 4. The shellplate kind of snaps into position & stops abruptly which causes a little powder to bounce out of the case. Not much, but say 2-3 individual specs of powder (H335/WC844) but that adds up very quickly to powder everywhere. Charge is 24.6gr so not excessively high in the case.

Problem 2 is the priming system. Was real frustrated with it overall earlier today & thought about just selling the whole press - too much trouble and if I include problem solving time I'm faster on the LCT. Also thought long about just going back to hand prime off the press. Really liked the idea of getting away from that so tinkered on....I'm using mixed brass - probably 15 different HS in the mix. But every single one was checked for crimps yesterday as part of timming/deburring. So I'm 100% sure 0 crimps or poorly dealt with crimps are sneaking in. Some issues are from Hornady brass which never had a crimp & some LC that were done on super swage and this is probably their 4th or 5th time getting a new primer. So I'm getting the "feel" with experience but there is lot more variation between nothing (that felt like it didn't get a primer at all) to hard stop (something is really wrong). I wasn't expecting the middle ground between those 2 extremes to be so much (but sorted brass or not having 1x fired and 6+x fired in the mix - I'm probably to blame as much as primer system there. But the issue comes from the shell plate or the primer wheel (not sure which) not indexing just right. I've found the primer waiting to be inserted isn't perfectly centered under the shell plate - like the shell plate advanced a hair to far or the wheel not enough. This make the primer miss the pocket and jam. Happens enough to really disrupt rhythm and being new to it leads me to contribute my own stupid mistakes like not putting a bullet in place sending a charged case into the bin making yet another mess......





This happens only occasionally. Like 1 every 25-50 rounds, but here is an example of the primer being just far enough off it's not going to hit the pocket well and cause a hard stop.

 

[DRAINSMITH]

Call Dillon. They have an alignment tool they will send you at no charge. Because from your photos I can see you are way out of alignment.

 

[captain awesome]

Timing is extremely important with auto indexing progressive presses. Have you adjusted timing? If not you should. Take the spring and detent ball out and set your shell plat bolt so it's just barely loose enough that there is no resistance while indexing, it shouldnt bind, take it through a couple full revolutions to make sure there is no hang ups or sticky spots. Then slowly cycle the press and see where the shell plate stops. Then adjust the location of the cam slide forward or back until the shell plate stops at exactly the right place and the priming punch is dead center. There are probably better instructions on how to do this in the manual. But that what I would do.

Are you having primer pull back issues? Those drive me crazy.

Also are you using the case feed system? If the cases are arriving at the shell plate too soon this can cause you some issues as well.

 

[CMV]

Call Dillon. They have an alignment tool they will send you at no charge. Because from your photos I can see you are way out of alignment.

DO you know what that looks like? Would it be something included in the spare parts kit? I might already have it if it's in that kit.

Timing is extremely important with auto indexing progressive presses. Have you adjusted timing? If not you should. Take the spring and detent ball out and set your shell plat bolt so it's just barely loose enough that there is no resistance while indexing, it shouldnt bind, take it through a couple full revolutions to make sure there is no hang ups or sticky spots. Then slowly cycle the press and see where the shell plate stops. Then adjust the location of the cam slide forward or back until the shell plate stops at exactly the right place and the priming punch is dead center. There are probably better instructions on how to do this in the manual. But that what I would do.

Are you having primer pull back issues? Those drive me crazy.

Also are you using the case feed system? If the cases are arriving at the shell plate too soon this can cause you some issues as well.

I didn't know I could adjust the timing. Shell plate bolt - I went tight then backed off just enough to let it move freely, then locked it down with ram setscrew. It moves well empty - other than "snapping" into place each spot. I can loosen it a little more, but not much or it leaves high primers.



Before I do something stupid....this is what you're talking about? Loosen & slide left/right until I get shell plate stopping perfectly centered over priming ram? That might fix my powder alarm problem too - it hits case mouth instead of going into case half the time & pops out. It fails so much it's not worth using as it is.....

 

[captain awesome]

Yes sir. That is the piece that needs moved to adjust the shellplate timing. You will want to make the adjustment without the detent ball in place.

 

[bullet maker 57]

I had the same problem with my 650. Got the timing where it needed to be. Nary a problem since.

 

[Mark MCMAHON]

Watch "Dillon xl650 primer disc issues seater assembly issues" on YouTube

 

[DRAINSMITH]

It's called the alignment tool part number 13713. It looks like a three-step alignment punch

 

[jmorris]

I use a Timkin NTA-815 thrust bearing and two washers on my 650’s and it’s as smooth or smoother than all other progressives I have used.



If your shell plate is “off” that’s because the detent ball is not locating it, the retaining shoulder bolt is too tight.

As for priming problems, if the detent ball is in the proper location, make sure you have the station #2 locator adjusted .010” from touching the case (per the manual).

 

[captain awesome]

Watch "Dillon xl650 primer disc issues seater assembly issues" on YouTube

Mark, I had that same problem as in the video with my hornady LNL press I used to have. Hornady even sent a new sub plate which didnt solve it. I custom made a little washer out of brass and that fixed it. I bet the same would work on a 650 with that issue.

 

[captain awesome]

I use a Timkin NTA-815 thrust bearing and two washers on my 650’s and it’s as smooth or smoother than all other progressives I have used.



If your shell plate is “off” that’s because the detent ball is not locating it, the retaining shoulder bolt is too tight.

As for priming problems, if the detent ball is in the proper location, make sure you have the station #2 locator adjusted .010” from touching the case (per the manual).

JMorris, I assume that's you in the video, I noticed it appears that you haven't modified your case ejector wire, do you have any issues with it working it's way up too high and blocking the case feed slide?

 

[CMV]

I use a Timkin NTA-815 thrust bearing and two washers on my 650’s and it’s as smooth or smoother than all other progressives I have used.



If your shell plate is “off” that’s because the detent ball is not locating it, the retaining shoulder bolt is too tight.

As for priming problems, if the detent ball is in the proper location, make sure you have the station #2 locator adjusted .010” from touching the case (per the manual).

Thanks. Fixing that snap would be nice!

As for #2 locator....I'm not sure how to measure. Case wants to naturally rest against it. I can push the case into the shell plate and it doesn't touch the #2 locator. I can fit a business card in between the case & locator snugly. A credit card (.030) will deflect the locator back. - but I can jam it in there....

 

[jmorris]

Yep, that’s me and no I haven’t had any problems with it moving out of place, yet (as I knock on wood).

 

[jmorris]

Thanks. Fixing that snap would be nice!

As for #2 locator....I'm not sure how to measure. Case wants to naturally rest against it. I can push the case into the shell plate and it doesn't touch the #2 locator. I can fit a business card in between the case & locator snugly. A credit card (.030) will deflect the locator back. - but I can jam it in there....

A section ofbusiness card is about .010”. Your eyeball and the gap between the blades on a set of calipers works too, if your eyeball is decent.

 

[SCC]

I had the snap and spill problem too. I fixed it by replacing the spring under the shell plate detent ball with a weaker one from my junk collection. I also adjusted the cam slide (Indexer Block) so that the shell plate stops in exactly the correct place, no more and no less. Now, unless I jerk the press for some reason it runs smoothly with no spillage. I still get a few kernels of powder every now and then, usually from powder sticking to the powder check probe.

You also mentioned tightening the shell plate bolt correctly being a problem. Here's how I do it. First I tighten it down snug so that the plate will rotate by hand with some minor resistance or binding. Then I partially tighten the setscrew to get some friction on the bolt and to press the bolt threads into their final radial position within the ram. This will usually cause the bolt to tighten and the shell plate to bind. What it also does is to keep tightening the setscrew later from affecting the bolt tension on the shell plate. Now, rotate the shell plate by hand and if it binds, use a wrench to back off the bolt just a little and test again. Repeat until the shell plate can be rotated fully without binding. Finally, fully tighten the setscrew and check for binding again.

 

[CMV]

For all my griping & complaining today, I have managed to fill 2 30 cal cans. ~1200 rds... I expected that to take around 3 hrs. Been 7.....

BUT, ammo is ending up in the akro bin..... Just at the same speed if I had been doing it on LCT (assuming I had hand primed it night before watching TV). So weird....I'll go a primer tube with no issues - everything perfect. Very next one it starts skipping primers or acting up in some way.

The good thing is once I solve a problem, it doesn't seem to come right back. The case feeder has been awesome. The powder measure is staying pretty consistent and haven't seen anything that wasn't +/- a tenth. I seem to be getting less variation in COAL even though using same Lee seating die. So there are some positives. I haven't really bought any aftermarket upgrades or widgets to go with the press. Only thing is FA vibraprime. I'm really liking it a LOT. Took a minute to figure out, but once I did (THANKS to THR and someone's recommendation to work it like a fishing pole with bobber!), it has been great. Flips primers really well and sometimes fills a tube in probably 10 sec or less. When it does hang up, just some tapping on it fixes it & gets it going again. I feel dumb for buying pickup tubes too. I thought the vibraprime filled the pickup tubes. I didn't realize I could just go straight from its tube to the the one in the press. So I spent $27 I didn't need to on the pickup tubes.

Switching over to different primers & bullets now for another run. Goal was 3 ammo cans today, so I'll get there....just will take much longer than I thought with all the hiccups.

 

[Rembrandt]

I've been having similar problems, called Dillon but phone lines were busy so I left an email. Need to reread all the above suggestions and see if that helps.

Mine was failing to advance the primer disc and index it fully to where it the ball detent would seat in the next hole. Best I can see is the plastic primer cam was getting worn down and failing to advance the primer indexing arm far enough.

 

[jmorris]

I expected that to take around 3 hrs. Been 7.....

Frustration is the biggest time killer there is. It doesn’t matter if you are trying to use a Hornady, RCBS, Dillon or Unicorn. If you are PO’ed, just stop and go do something else.

There is no perfect machine and no perfect operators. There are some that can operate lot of machines well and some that can’t run any with much success.

If you look at the operation from a “what don’t I know” point of view vs a “it should do this” standpoint, you will be headed in the right direction.

 

[CMV]

Switching to the Fiocchi SRM primers helped a lot. I need to measure them, but something is different. Maybe a few tenths smaller or harder sides...But they seated much better. On hand prime I can't tell a difference between Wolf SRM, CCI 41, or the Fiocchi SRM, but notice a difference here. Will have to try some CCI #41 and see how it likes those.

Getting a lot that are just a hair proud though. The ones that aren't proud are barely below flush. Nothing getting seated as deep as Lee hand prime does (except all the ones I had to go back over with hand prime to fix ) The plunger that raises the primers sits just a little below flush - looks to be the same distance I'm lacking from getting same seating depth as hand prime. I removed it to adjust but can't figure out how. I can turn the small allen screw on bottom of it all day long & that does nothing. Tried holding the center piece that spring is over with needlenose but can't hold it that way. It looks like it adjusts, will have to look up how it adjusts & do that. Swiping a fingertip over every round the check primer depth was an additional time eater. But did find one upside down so that's good.

Anyway, once I dialed in length & FCD for bullet swap, it ran very well with the different brand of primer with a lot better feel for seating.

 

[Kaldor]

Frustration is the biggest time killer there is. It doesn’t matter if you are trying to use a Hornady, RCBS, Dillon or Unicorn. If you are PO’ed, just stop and go do something else.

There is no perfect machine and no perfect operators. There are some that can operate lot of machines well and some that can’t run any with much success.

If you look at the operation from a “what don’t I know” point of view vs a “it should do this” standpoint, you will be headed in the right direction.

This is a statement I agree 100% with. Doesnt matter what press, they all can have issues from the press itself, to the operator, to even what components youre feeding it.

Glad you got it mostly sorted. Stick with it, the 650 is a damn fine press.

 

[CMV]

I'm sure it is...just have to get it sorted.

I think my expectations were a little too high. I expected it to be more complex setup and take a while to adjust to priming on press and a bunch of things going on at once.

I wasn't expecting tinkering with every aspect of the press and fix one thing, now something else is causing issues. I really just wasn't expecting so many stoppages....watch a youtube video and someone just spits out 100 rounds in 10 minutes....that set a false expectation. The video isn't showing all the time getting it ready to spit out those 100 rds. Neglecting to note that it was 4th take to get 100 flawless with 0 stoppages....

Oh well...learning & pressing on. At least fixing an issue once means next time it will be much simpler. And I'm no longer dreading caliber change or primer size change - I've had it all apart & back together so no intimidation swapping parts around & getting it back together. I was expecting to stop frequently to add primers, refill case hopper, top off powder, check charge weights, make sure length is staying, etc. I wasn't expecting so much "even though there are 50 primers left this case didn't have one underneath it at all" or some random mechanical breakdown causing so many unexpected stoppages. The unexpected stoppages are where all the frustration came from yesterday because it was literally all day fix this & now that is not working right. Just one problem to the next is what it felt like.

I watched your video above Jmorris....and this one: Any opinions on his fix? In the comments it looks like it reduced the snap, but didn't eliminate it. Yours looked like just the washers eliminated it?

 

[jmorris]

Don’t have a half hour to watch that one right now but yes you can see in mine there is no snap to the shell plate. You are able to tighten the shoulder bolt enough to eliminate the snap but still loose enough it is not bound up.

It’s two washers with a thrust bearing between them.

I really just wasn't expecting so many stoppages....watch a youtube video and someone just spits out 100 rounds in 10 minutes....that set a false expectation. The video isn't showing all the time getting it ready to spit out those 100 rds.

Setup is a big part of it for sure, why lots of us have multiple presses so we are ready to go for various rounds, just by scooting the chair over to the next press. Equally important is making sure what you are feeding the press won’t cause malfunctions.

 

[Texas10mm]

I can go out and load 100 rounds with no problem. Either 9mm or .45 ACP. I've got a 650 set up for each right now.

The only problem would be a SPP .45 brass or a Berdan primed 9mm case. Those take about 10 seconds to solve.

 

[Nature Boy]

On your primer issue. The knurled nut at the top of the primer tube should be just barely tight. Don't crank down on it. Stop when you feel just a light resistance. I was over tightening mine and it was causing missed primers and jams.

That may have been covered in Jmorris' video.