Mich city may approve Muslim prayer call
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Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah.
Just like the Muslim foreign exchange student I drove to and from school every day during my senior year of high school wanted to kill me. And the Muslim guy I hung out with in college.
Oh, yeah, and the guy who runs the servers for this website. Yeah, he wants to kill you, too.
While we're talking smack about entire religions based on a group of fruitloops, I'd like to point out that there's no functional difference between the Spanish Inquisition and a pot latch dinner at the local United Methodist church.
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If city resources are used, isn't there a separation of church & state issue? If however the church is using their own resources, then it's no problem as it's just like (Christian) church bells calling its worshippres to service. Since it is the latter, there is no Constitutional issue proscribing it.
ZekeLuvs1911
Member
Oh for crying out loud (no pun intended) this should not be allowed. If I was another religon there, I would be suing for discrimination. In a time where we can't even say "In God we trust" why should they be allowed to make noise? Jeez.....!!!!!!
this should not be allowed. If I was another religon there, I would be suing for discrimination. In a time where we can't even say "In God we trust" why should they be allowed to make noise? Jeez.....!!!!!!one45auto
Member
If I lived in or near that community, I'd certainly be upset. If they want to get down on their prayer rugs and prostrate themselves five times a day, fine. Do it. I won't give a rat's backside. But don't force me to listen to that crap.
This is America, not Saudi Arabia damn it.
This is America, not Saudi Arabia damn it.
Aikibiker
Member
I believe I misspoke a bit. Let me try and make my position clearer.
The United States of America is at war with multiple groups of Islamic extremists. They are not Iraqi extremists or Afghani extremists. They are Muslim extremists. Their unifying factor is the Muslim religion. Not every one of the Muslims in the world is our enemy, but all of our enemies in this particular war are Muslims.
In WW2 we were at war with the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy as well as the government of Japan. We may not have been at war with the citizens of Japan, but we certainly waged war on them. We firebombed Tokyo not because we the civilians living there represented a threat to the USA, but because they were capable of aiding and abetting the Japanese government in making war on us. We did the same to the German civilians while we prosecuted our war on the German Armed Forces and the nazi government. This is the way you win a war.
The enemy in today’s war on terror can and have used Muslim civilians to further their aims by recruitment and subversion. Radical Islamists have recruited jihadists to fight in Afghanistan and Chechnya from the American population. We have captured or killed jihadist fighters from almost every nation on earth in our war on terror. Terrorist groups have used Muslim charities to gain money to further their war efforts.
This does not mean that every Muslim in our midst is our enemy, but they are certainly a threat and should be watched.
We are in a war with Muslims from every nation on earth; it is foolishness not to suspect those in our own country.
Once again we are at war with an enemy that has a demonstrated ability to strike the continental United States. War is not pretty. It is not nice. It is not fun or a game. Until we can invent a device that can instantly show us who is our enemy and who is our friend we must be suspicious of all Muslims in all countries. This is an ugly truth, but it is the truth. We are in a fight for our way of life. It is the way war is. Ask any Vietnam Vet who ever had a friend killed by someone who didn't look like the enemy what happens if you are to trusting.
I hope this clarifies my position.
The United States of America is at war with multiple groups of Islamic extremists. They are not Iraqi extremists or Afghani extremists. They are Muslim extremists. Their unifying factor is the Muslim religion. Not every one of the Muslims in the world is our enemy, but all of our enemies in this particular war are Muslims.
In WW2 we were at war with the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy as well as the government of Japan. We may not have been at war with the citizens of Japan, but we certainly waged war on them. We firebombed Tokyo not because we the civilians living there represented a threat to the USA, but because they were capable of aiding and abetting the Japanese government in making war on us. We did the same to the German civilians while we prosecuted our war on the German Armed Forces and the nazi government. This is the way you win a war.
The enemy in today’s war on terror can and have used Muslim civilians to further their aims by recruitment and subversion. Radical Islamists have recruited jihadists to fight in Afghanistan and Chechnya from the American population. We have captured or killed jihadist fighters from almost every nation on earth in our war on terror. Terrorist groups have used Muslim charities to gain money to further their war efforts.
This does not mean that every Muslim in our midst is our enemy, but they are certainly a threat and should be watched.
We are in a war with Muslims from every nation on earth; it is foolishness not to suspect those in our own country.
Once again we are at war with an enemy that has a demonstrated ability to strike the continental United States. War is not pretty. It is not nice. It is not fun or a game. Until we can invent a device that can instantly show us who is our enemy and who is our friend we must be suspicious of all Muslims in all countries. This is an ugly truth, but it is the truth. We are in a fight for our way of life. It is the way war is. Ask any Vietnam Vet who ever had a friend killed by someone who didn't look like the enemy what happens if you are to trusting.
I hope this clarifies my position.
Travis McGee
Member
Folks, "ALLAH U AKBAR!!!" is not only part of the Muslim call to prayer, it's what Islamofascist mass murderers scream with orgasmic delight, just before they fly jets into buildings, or blow themselves up on buses full of children.
We're in a world war, which will take decades, most likely. "Mein Kampf" is now "Mein Koran." This "call to prayer BS is no different than allowing "Aryan cultural centers" in the 1930s to blast out the speeches of Adolf Hitler.
This is insanity. "ALLAH U AKBAR!!" is what Mohammed Atta screamed as he slaughtered thousands of Americans. To compare this to church bells ringing the hour is sheer madness. If we don't wise up, our grand children will be learning to memorize the koran in 50 years.
RADICAL ISLAM IS AN INSANE MURDER CULT, "MODERATE" ISLAM IS ITS TROJAN HORSE IN THE WEST.
And like naive fools, we're pulling these Trojan Horses stuffed with smiling jihadists into every town in America.
Remember: lying to infidels to advance Islam is considered a virtue among muslims. When they smile at you, they are looking at your throat, and dreaming of Danny Pearl.
We're in a war, and we're not even serious yet.
We're in a world war, which will take decades, most likely. "Mein Kampf" is now "Mein Koran." This "call to prayer BS is no different than allowing "Aryan cultural centers" in the 1930s to blast out the speeches of Adolf Hitler.
This is insanity. "ALLAH U AKBAR!!" is what Mohammed Atta screamed as he slaughtered thousands of Americans. To compare this to church bells ringing the hour is sheer madness. If we don't wise up, our grand children will be learning to memorize the koran in 50 years.
RADICAL ISLAM IS AN INSANE MURDER CULT, "MODERATE" ISLAM IS ITS TROJAN HORSE IN THE WEST.
And like naive fools, we're pulling these Trojan Horses stuffed with smiling jihadists into every town in America.
Remember: lying to infidels to advance Islam is considered a virtue among muslims. When they smile at you, they are looking at your throat, and dreaming of Danny Pearl.
We're in a war, and we're not even serious yet.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
From a practical perspective, do you think you'd retain the goodwill of most US Moslem residents by suppressing their religious practices?
From a legal perspective, the church bell analogy is pretty close. Personally, I'd not want to live next to any source of periodic noise, but treating different methods of prayer call (bells, voice, sirens) differently on the grounds of which religions they represent is a bad idea.
From the "war against Islam" perspective -- do you really think that the majority of the 1.3 billion people who practice it hate us? I'd more easily believe that they don't know who we are or much care, and that they want what you want (job, family, leisure time). Misfit nutcases (psychological, if not social misfits) don't have to be numerous to be a danger. By the same token, we could have taken the Red Brigade activities as an atheist threat and gone hunting for the infidels in our midst. In reality, plenty of godless Americans would have as eagerly offed Red tangos as you and I would have.
From a legal perspective, the church bell analogy is pretty close. Personally, I'd not want to live next to any source of periodic noise, but treating different methods of prayer call (bells, voice, sirens) differently on the grounds of which religions they represent is a bad idea.
From the "war against Islam" perspective -- do you really think that the majority of the 1.3 billion people who practice it hate us? I'd more easily believe that they don't know who we are or much care, and that they want what you want (job, family, leisure time). Misfit nutcases (psychological, if not social misfits) don't have to be numerous to be a danger. By the same token, we could have taken the Red Brigade activities as an atheist threat and gone hunting for the infidels in our midst. In reality, plenty of godless Americans would have as eagerly offed Red tangos as you and I would have.
Wildalaska
member
Bet the majority dont even know where we are except in the vaguest terms.
Always wondered why I got nervous around Methodists
Must be the primal image of F Murray Abraham with a shaven head and a long robe ordering the bonfires lit"... (and the movie was?)WildquizAlaska
natedog
Member
I've got a great idea- let's take all of these suspicious folk, give them 48 hours to pack up, and ship them to camps in the middle of nowhere. That'd be a great solution, right? Hey, it worked for FDR and the Nazis, it might work for us! People are innocent until proven guilty- not guilty until we have no more reason to suspect you.
tailgunner
Member In Memoriam
In addition to the calls
will there be religous police ( Mutawah?) running aroung with their sticks beating people who don't go to pray? I had to put up with this crap in Saudi Arabia, I do not have to put up with it here!
will there be religous police ( Mutawah?) running aroung with their sticks beating people who don't go to pray? I had to put up with this crap in Saudi Arabia, I do not have to put up with it here!
greyhound
Member
Speaking for myself, I really don't **care** why they hate us.
I think a little too much introspection is being done about the "Arab Street" and too little being done about the "American Street".
A lot changed for the good and bad on 9/11, and I think the "cultural relativism" that had been creeping into our society was one thing.
We were somewhat ashamed of our "Western values", and slowly I think that is changing.
The hard part is that we are a nation of immigrants. Now we have always BEEN a nation of immigrants, but with phone cards, TV, and the internet, today's immigrants no longer have to cut all ties with their former country like they used to.
This, IMHO, is the true problem with our immigration problem. People like to rail that they aren't assimilating like they used to, and I think this is the reason: with modern communications they don't have to cut their ties to the old country.
So you get problems like this: some Muslim folks want to bring their Arab religious practices to the US. The analogy to church bells doesn't hold to me: church bells have been here since the first piligrims, so its once again a case of "cultural relativism" where a relativley new group that does things differently asks for some changes, not necessarily a bad thing.
My solution: let the residents vote on it, and no carping if they allow the call to prayer. PLEASE don't let the courts settle it, we have too much of that already!
BryanP
Member
Of course. How could I be so blind? And I guess that means the Episcopal church down the street is a trojan horse for the new Jim Jones.
Individuals are just that.
ID_shooting
Member
I belive what Greyhound said.
Let the communities involved vote on it. That is what democracy is about right? You can not possibly please everyone, everywhere, everytime. Woudl I want to hear it? no. Would I try to stop it if all of my nieghbors wanted to hear it, again no, I would probably move.
We live in America, Telling somone they can't do what is traditional to thier relogion is not cool. That being said. If all of my nieghbors voted to oust guns from our block, well, I would sell and move. There are certain tradoffs to democracy. but IMO, they good apects far out wiegh the bad.
Let the communities involved vote on it. That is what democracy is about right? You can not possibly please everyone, everywhere, everytime. Woudl I want to hear it? no. Would I try to stop it if all of my nieghbors wanted to hear it, again no, I would probably move.
We live in America, Telling somone they can't do what is traditional to thier relogion is not cool. That being said. If all of my nieghbors voted to oust guns from our block, well, I would sell and move. There are certain tradoffs to democracy. but IMO, they good apects far out wiegh the bad.
I like greyhound's solution.
I don't see any reason that the call to prayer needs to be made at all those times, churches don't ring their bells for the 8am Sunday morning service, they'd really annoy people. Some kind of compromise - once a day?
I don't see any reason that the call to prayer needs to be made at all those times, churches don't ring their bells for the 8am Sunday morning service, they'd really annoy people. Some kind of compromise - once a day?
fix
Member
I say this with a lot of hesitation, so no flames please. I have thought twice (actually more than that) and now I will post once. I am slowly coming to the realization that despite all efforts at remaining PC, we are going to have to accept that we are at war with Islam. It's not Christianity vs. Islam though. It is Western Society (spawned largely from Christianity) vs. Middle Eastern Society (spawned largely from Islam). Anyone who does not see this is in for a rude awakening. It is not a religious war, per se...yet religion is involved on the periphery. I have traveled a good bit. I've been to 13 different countries, and 19 different states. I have met people of all walks of life, from all faiths. I have many atheist friends, several Jewish friends, a whole wagonload of Christian friends, and 3 Muslim friends (2 from Jordan, 1 Born in the USA American). In short, I'm not some dumb backwoods redneck who is clueless about the world around him, so save your condescension for someone else.
We are essentially at war with most of the world's Muslim population, we just don't know it yet...and quite frankly neither do they. It is a clash of cultures, born of different religions. Ours is very tolerant, and despite Christian bashers attempting to paint us as fanatics who want to force everyone into our churches, will remain so. Their society is not very tolerant. It has more to do with the tradition of their faith than the reality of what most of them believe. They are conditioned to accept certain things as political reality, just as we are. I don't think that even 10% of the Muslim world is actively seeking to destroy us. But I do believe that 99% of them will not shed a tear or bat an eyelash over our destruction. So you end up with a situation much like 1930s Germany. A minority starts acting wacky, while the majority gives consent through their silence because they've been conditioned a certain way.
We've seen war progress from man vs. man, to family vs. family, to tribe vs. tribe, all the way to nation vs. nation. We've already had religion vs. religion. It was small potatoes compared to what we are faced with now. This is a clash of cultures, and I fear that while our people are stronger, the limitations placed on us by our culture will be our downfall. Obsession with political correctness, debating semantics, blindly blaming religion and those who are different, open dissent, etc. are all products of our culture. So while half of us spend all our time trying hard not to offend anyone, the other half is arguing about the definition of common terms, protesting anything the .gov does, obsessing over "them dern muzlims" and "the evil Christian Right", and otherwise being generally divisive, the enemy is united. There is no dissent, because it's not acceptable to their culture. There is no argument about religion, because it is accepted that Islam is THE religion and others are treated much like we treat our occasional cult...they largely ignore it, to the point that it passes for tolerance. There is no arguing or debating semantics or silly little details, because they have better things to do and bigger problems to worry about. Not living in the great land of plenty will do that to you. In other words, we are stronger as individuals, but they are stronger as a group. We need to stand united, not as Christians or [insert favorite group], but as Americans. We need to accept that we're all in this together. Muslims living here need to understand that, to a man, they are targets just like the rest of us. They don't need to try to reclaim their religion...because I fear that that is a lost cause and will just lead to another debate over semantics. We need to rally, in a big way people, and I think it needs to start in the Muslim community here in America. I don't know exactly what it is that they need to do, but I'm quite sure that they are the only segment of society that can provide the spark needed to rekindle the fire that is the spirit of America. Without their strong public support, we remain divided. I'm pretty sure the rest of us are essentially together...but we are so busy trying to be PC that we're losing sight of the real enemy. The only way we're gonna get past it is for a drastic change to take place. We all need to start thinking like Americans again...and drop all these stupid hyphens, lest we all perish!
Forgive me for rambling. I've been thinking about this for some time, yet I still can't find the words to express what I'm thinking. This is as close as I could get. Sorry if this is a thread hijack. It seemed an appropriate place to post, given the sentiments expressed here.
We are essentially at war with most of the world's Muslim population, we just don't know it yet...and quite frankly neither do they. It is a clash of cultures, born of different religions. Ours is very tolerant, and despite Christian bashers attempting to paint us as fanatics who want to force everyone into our churches, will remain so. Their society is not very tolerant. It has more to do with the tradition of their faith than the reality of what most of them believe. They are conditioned to accept certain things as political reality, just as we are. I don't think that even 10% of the Muslim world is actively seeking to destroy us. But I do believe that 99% of them will not shed a tear or bat an eyelash over our destruction. So you end up with a situation much like 1930s Germany. A minority starts acting wacky, while the majority gives consent through their silence because they've been conditioned a certain way.
We've seen war progress from man vs. man, to family vs. family, to tribe vs. tribe, all the way to nation vs. nation. We've already had religion vs. religion. It was small potatoes compared to what we are faced with now. This is a clash of cultures, and I fear that while our people are stronger, the limitations placed on us by our culture will be our downfall. Obsession with political correctness, debating semantics, blindly blaming religion and those who are different, open dissent, etc. are all products of our culture. So while half of us spend all our time trying hard not to offend anyone, the other half is arguing about the definition of common terms, protesting anything the .gov does, obsessing over "them dern muzlims" and "the evil Christian Right", and otherwise being generally divisive, the enemy is united. There is no dissent, because it's not acceptable to their culture. There is no argument about religion, because it is accepted that Islam is THE religion and others are treated much like we treat our occasional cult...they largely ignore it, to the point that it passes for tolerance. There is no arguing or debating semantics or silly little details, because they have better things to do and bigger problems to worry about. Not living in the great land of plenty will do that to you. In other words, we are stronger as individuals, but they are stronger as a group. We need to stand united, not as Christians or [insert favorite group], but as Americans. We need to accept that we're all in this together. Muslims living here need to understand that, to a man, they are targets just like the rest of us. They don't need to try to reclaim their religion...because I fear that that is a lost cause and will just lead to another debate over semantics. We need to rally, in a big way people, and I think it needs to start in the Muslim community here in America. I don't know exactly what it is that they need to do, but I'm quite sure that they are the only segment of society that can provide the spark needed to rekindle the fire that is the spirit of America. Without their strong public support, we remain divided. I'm pretty sure the rest of us are essentially together...but we are so busy trying to be PC that we're losing sight of the real enemy. The only way we're gonna get past it is for a drastic change to take place. We all need to start thinking like Americans again...and drop all these stupid hyphens, lest we all perish!
Forgive me for rambling. I've been thinking about this for some time, yet I still can't find the words to express what I'm thinking. This is as close as I could get. Sorry if this is a thread hijack. It seemed an appropriate place to post, given the sentiments expressed here.
It's Noise Law stuff, there is a big difference between once a week on sunday and 35 times a week.
Also, I'm pretty sure that the majority of armed conflicts in the world right now involve Muslims, I'm not saying they are all evil, but anywhere they can be found in large numbers, there is conflict.
Also, I'm pretty sure that the majority of armed conflicts in the world right now involve Muslims, I'm not saying they are all evil, but anywhere they can be found in large numbers, there is conflict.
We are NOT a democracy!!!
We are a republic. We have certain rules set forth, i.e. the bill of rights, that the government CAN NOT break. This is NOT a democracy. I should no more be able to vote away your right to own a gun, anymore than you should be able to vote away my right to inject clorox into my eyeball for fun.
Sheesh,
Ed
We are a republic. We have certain rules set forth, i.e. the bill of rights, that the government CAN NOT break. This is NOT a democracy. I should no more be able to vote away your right to own a gun, anymore than you should be able to vote away my right to inject clorox into my eyeball for fun.
Sheesh,
Ed
Given my warnings in the past I doubt I can respond to this thread the way my brain tells me to without being banned.
Anyway, this some of this thread is rife with highly ignorant, intolerant and xenophobic views (And borderline racist) .
All Muslims != Fundamentalist terrorists just like All Christians != Westboro Baptist Church
The amount of inane intolerant bull???? in this thread is sickening. You people (Whom I describe in this post) are of the same type who supported illegally interning US Citizens of Japanese descent during WWII.
Muslim citizens of the US are just like you and me CITIZENS. Singling out a group of people because they share a common religion is wrong any way you slice it.
Now if the prayer calls are a nuiscence in that they're very loud and annoying I could see a problem, but I really doubt it'll be any more noticable than church bells. Also I believe this area in Michigan is predominatly inhabited by people of Arab/Muslim descent so really, what's the problem.
My two cents.
Anyway, this some of this thread is rife with highly ignorant, intolerant and xenophobic views (And borderline racist) .
All Muslims != Fundamentalist terrorists just like All Christians != Westboro Baptist Church
The amount of inane intolerant bull???? in this thread is sickening. You people (Whom I describe in this post) are of the same type who supported illegally interning US Citizens of Japanese descent during WWII.
Muslim citizens of the US are just like you and me CITIZENS. Singling out a group of people because they share a common religion is wrong any way you slice it.
Now if the prayer calls are a nuiscence in that they're very loud and annoying I could see a problem, but I really doubt it'll be any more noticable than church bells. Also I believe this area in Michigan is predominatly inhabited by people of Arab/Muslim descent so really, what's the problem.
My two cents.
This is a great example you pulled up. It calls to mind one of the gravest atrocities ever commited within the borders of the US for the sake of "national security". If you don't know what im talking about i urge you to look it up or find a really old Japanese-American and ask them about it.
When i was a kid the church near my parents house range their bells OVER LOUDSPEAKERS three-five times a day for about 30 seconds each time and noone ever had a problem with it.
Can someone tell me how LONG the typical islamic 'call to prayer' lasts?
Aikibiker
Member
c_yeager,
I never said it was pretty. I find it sickening myself. But you to admit that WW2 is the last war we actually WON not just achieved victory, but actually defeated the enemy on the battle field and instituted new governments that we formed a lasting peace with.
Our fighting men can trash any opposing force on the face of the earth. However they need a country behind them that is 100% committed to the war effort. I said before war is horrible. Most of that horror can be found on the field of battle. Some of it is found right here at home.
I never said it was pretty. I find it sickening myself. But you to admit that WW2 is the last war we actually WON not just achieved victory, but actually defeated the enemy on the battle field and instituted new governments that we formed a lasting peace with.
Our fighting men can trash any opposing force on the face of the earth. However they need a country behind them that is 100% committed to the war effort. I said before war is horrible. Most of that horror can be found on the field of battle. Some of it is found right here at home.
HBK
member
I agree with fix...and Travis McGee.
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