Midnight Encounter--Analysis

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Cosmoline

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
23,646
Location
Los Anchorage
Just had an interesting encoutner with a neighborhood drug dealer/user. To set the stage, it's about eleven o'clock PM in Spenard. Dark outside and about 10 degrees with an intense wind. This one's a young punk in baggy pants and an overly puffy winter coat. He was wired on something, and probably from out of town. He was hounding one of his clients to pay up. I was walking the dog in the alley, and had gone between some abandoned cottages to play kick with him. The fellow sees me and says a too loud "Hello!" I say nothing, and he gets increasingly aggressive. The dog alerts as he starts towards me, from about 20 feet. I've got him on a quick release, but the idiot starts posturing and approaching, probably with thoughts of muscling up/ mugging me.

"No, stay back, this is a guard dog" I tell him. My tone is also an alert to the dog to get serious, but not to bark yet. My hand rests on my go-to pistol in my coat pocket, which right now is the Beretta 3032 (not my first choice, but it is nice and compact). My finger is on the trigger and hand on the hammer, ready to put it in SA mode on presentation and guarding against AD.

He stops and starts to gesture in "gangsta" fashion, walking back and forth in an agitated manner. "Oh yeah, I've got something for you and your dog!"

At that point I'm in the shadows and he's in the street light. I thought about getting behind a nearby pickup, but that would have forced me to advance towards him and possibly escalate the situation. I could have also moved back behind snow berms, but they provide no cover and limit mobility greatly. I had a good view of his hands, so I stayed put.

If I saw iron, my plan was to draw the pistol, cock it into SA and get a bead on him while going into a crouch I'm comfortable shooting from. The dog is trained to stay put unless ordered to attack.

As it turned out, the guy he was collecting from came up with the cash and his mood improved. He said he wasn't trying to start anything and I responded in kind, but that it's a bad neighborhood. I wait ten minutes after he leaves before returning home, noting where he lives--or at least where he went back to.

Here are some considerations I'm mulling over:

--The great difficulty in hitting paydirt on an agitated punk in puffy clothes, esp in the bitter cold. I had no gloves on, which is good in that it allows better grip and control but bad in that it chills the hands. Some solutions to this might be laser sights, or a bigger platform.

--It's VERY nice to have your hand on a firearm ready to go, whatever the experts say about not doing it. Esp. in layers of winter clothes, having to reach around and dig out an IWB handgun or shoulder holster is a poor option when some methed up punk may pull out a piece any second. Now the downside of this is you can only do it with a few types of firearms. I've pocket carried a variety. The biggest I could manage without busting pockets was my old SP101, but that was heavy and had a tendency to get hung up. The Beretta, like other mouse guns I've had, doesn't get hung up and is very easy to control in pocket, but it's just a .32 ACP. Looking back over it, I think a Model 36 or Dick Special with shrouded hammer is about the best option. I went to the SP101 in an effort to kick up to a .357, but it was just too much of a brick to be practical.

--Another option would have been to utilize the dog if he pulled a firearm. He is trained to disarm, and would dearly love to do it. But with him released I'd have the double problem of Mr. Punk shooting at me and the dog while having to avoid hitting the dog myself. A release of the hound, combined with a dodge right or left to get behind cover or approach from his flank would have been one option. The problem is, while I've done Shutzhund training with the dog and handgun training, there's no real combination of the two. I guess I hadn't given the issue enough thought.

Feel free to kick ideas around. Here's a rough diagram:

Tactical.gif
 
Another option would have been to utilize the dog if he pulled a firearm. He is trained to disarm, and would dearly love to do it. But with him released I'd have the double problem of Mr. Punk shooting at me and the dog while having to avoid hitting the dog myself.
Click to expand...

One of the problems in using a dog to defend your own life is that you must be willing to sacrifice the dog it seems to me.

If you are not willing to do that then why have the dog trained in such a way?

No intent to offend, just asked out of curiosity.
 
It's a fair point. Schutzhund training assumes you don't have a firearm, and I obviously haven't given enough thought to dual deployment. But on consideration, the dog's in just as much danger of friendly or hostile fire sitting next to me if I'm in a crouch, esp. since he's going to want to launch. Best bet might have been to draw, launch him and move to cover at the same time. Then the punk would be tangled with the dog and I could approach from whatever position seemed best. I should have more faith in the old boy.
 
Well Cosmo as few thoughts here on this .

You have a variety of weapons or have had , you have a trained canine and training isn't cheap so I am guessing money for specific gear isn't a major problem .

You said it just happened so the prospects of a long cold winter and perhaps similar encounters are there .

First I would suggest you do some glove shopping and find a pair that will serve to keep your fingers from becoming numb when you can least afford to have this happen yet allows use of a weapon , perhaps an entire outfit designed for walking the dog in the middle of the night . A pair of warm bibs with leg zippers will go easily on and off even with your shoes on will take care of your legs and torso not including your shoulders . I would suggest a light to medium jacket that on top of you wear a duty style belt with a combat worthy weapon "and spare magazines/reloads" that takes into consideration the heavy clothing that an adversary could be wearing .
On top of all of this I would go with a wool trench coat and cut out the gun hand pocket so your hand can be in the pocket and on your weapon yet completely concealed with the trench coat unbuttoned . If getting snagged on the inside of the trench coat is a concern you could hand sew a patch of plastic to the inside of the trench coat covering all of the cloth fabric that would snag on a hammer .

If I was in your situation I would give great consideration to a Kevlar vest also as it could be a simple one that slips over your head and then velcros on the sides over your clothing under the jacket , ala TV SWAT teams .

With a trench coat I would even consider a pump shotgun with a pistol grip and a shoulder strap as a viable weapon .

Keep in mind in extreme temperatures as you described if you are wounded shock can come very quickly with blood and body temperature loss . Dressing to retain your body heat should you become incapacitated could very easily save your life . Laying on the ground wounded would drain you body heat very quickly without good insulation between your body and the ground .

I would also suggest you carry a cell phone and check to see if you have a signal between the buildings you walk your dog before hand . In a bad neighborhood people often mind their own business when they hear gunfire and this seems to one such neighborhood to me .

One other thing tactics , when the guy yelled hello I would have responded with something like "hey how ya doing , damn it's cold out to be walking this stupid dog" the guy might just have noticed what you were doing had a good laugh and left you alone from there .

Good luck and be safe
 
"No, stay back, this is a guard dog" I tell him. My tone is also an alert to the dog to get serious, but not to bark yet. My hand rests on my go-to pistol in my coat pocket, which right now is the Beretta 3032 (not my first choice, but it is nice and compact). My finger is on the trigger and hand on the hammer, ready to put it in SA mode on presentation and guarding against AD.
Click to expand...

I see a coupla things Cosmo...........

Pocket carry is great ain't it? Your situation is exactly why I pocket carry. Being able to establish your firing grip before your attacker even knows you are armed is a huge advantage. Huge. I do question your decision to finger the trigger and cock the weapon. I'm sure you expected that criticism, and I appreciate your honesty in going ahead and posting it. That decision is not an uncommon one in self defense. It is not a universally wrong decision, but it does place one at increased risk for an unintended discharge. A self defense situation is the last place you want an unintended discharge. I will not question your decision, except to say it increases your risk of a bad outcome.

Pocket carry.....J frame revolvers........increasing capacity........One in each coat pocket helps keep your hemline level and New York reloads are the quickest of all. The Model 60-9 is a .357 J frame, but honestly, it's a handful. The lightweight J frame .357s are worse. Then you have to wonder if a .357 from a two inch barrel is that much better than a +P .38 from the same. I don't have the straight ballistical skinny, but I like a +P .38 in a lightweight frame.

Tactically, I have to question how you allowed yourself to become cornered with no easy escape. Were you in condition white? Could you have slipped in between the buildings to your right? I don't know. You were in a bad spot where a dealer trying to gain dominance over a client saw you as a potential threat. In a situation like that, verbal threats are tossed out like flatus at a burrito festival. You did good, you watched hands instead of letting the words influence you. One of the big questions for me would have been "Where are the accomplices?" From your vantage point, you could not see them, if they were there.

I think the biggest thing that is bothering me is your apparent willingness to engage the punk rather than de-escalate and evade him. You did not even know if he was armed. I agree, he likely was armed, but you had the extreme upper hand. No punk wants to fight a dog, not even escaped convicts who have armed themselves. No matter what Mr. Tough Guy said, two warning barks from that dog and he would have been gone. A simple "Back off or I'll release the dog!" would have gained immediate compliance. Letting him know he was facing a trained guard dog was the key. Which brings up an interesting point/thought.

It seems dog use is primarily offensive, to take down a criminal. In your situation, that use would have been wrong. Is there any Schutzhund type training where the dog stubbornly defends the handler at close range rather than aggressively taking down the target at a distance? I don't know, that's why I am asking. It seems that such training would be much better suited for civilian owned dogs.

Just some early morning thoughts.
Glad you are all right!
 
Last edited:
This hasnt been mentioned yet, but Cosmoline, why not just find another place to walk the dog? I mean, is the entire area that bad that you anticipate running into the same kind of dirtball no matter where you go? Im just asking, not insulting. Knowing where they are and voiding these types of people in the first place is just as important as being prepared to deal with them.
 
Response

Cosmo, XavierBreath and Big001 brought up several good points. My primary concern would also be others there that you could not see. Most street dealers have one or two "lookouts / accomplices" and are almost always armed.

As mentioned, my first choice would have been to de-escalate and "back-out" of the area, no real point in a confrontation if its at all avoidable. I also do not prefer a "semi-auto" for a pocket carry, too many things to "hang-up", causing a higher possibility of malfunctions. In my opinion, anything less than a .38 is only good for CQB's, especially if heavy coats and clothing are involved.

I too would hate to get my dog hurt or killed, but better the dog than me. Dogs are very difficult to hit with a handgun (smaller, lower, faster), and as mentioned, diverts much of the attention away from you while you move to cover. You did a lot of things very well under the circumstances, just points for future consideration.
Good Luck
 
You were in a tight spot Cosmo. As pilots say any landing you can walk away from is a safe landing you can say you had a safe encounter. With a trained dog it doesn't hurt to put some distance between you and the bad guy with the dog. If he has the disipline to stay. Normally a "watch him" will put the dog on high alert and get the BG's attention allowing you to move. As I see it you did most things right once the encounter began, hand on weapon, minimal communication and non threatining movement. Chalk it up to experience and consider it a win. You survived.

Jim
 
One other thing tactics , when the guy yelled hello I would have responded with something like "hey how ya doing , damn it's cold out to be walking this stupid dog" the guy might just have noticed what you were doing had a good laugh and left you alone from there .
Click to expand...
Yeah, or maybe something like: "Hallo, ciamar a tha thu? Tha i glè fhuar a-nochd, nach eil?" :D

Though I myself could probably not think fast enough under those conditions to say that. ;)
 
There's a saying that goes something like: "the only sure way to win a gunfight is by not getting yourself involved in one in the first place." Seems as if you won this one big time. Only thing i would add is to ditto the comment made above regarding maybe finding some other place to walk the dog.
 
The only big thing I noticed is putting the finger on the trigger. With winter clothing why not carry a bigger gun? If he would have made a sudden move, I would have let the dog go, could cover the distance before he would have gotten the gun (or whatever he was reaching for) into play.

Good situational awareness, I'd find another place and/or time to walk the dog.
 
A self defense situation is the last place you want an unintended discharge. I will not question your decision, except to say it inceases your risk of a bad outcome.
Click to expand...

Just to make it clear, I didn't cock it and wouldn't have until presentation. I had my finger on the hammer to ensure there would be no ND in the pocket. If I drew, it would only be to fire so cocking it on presentation would make sense.

The cell phone is a good point, but then again I would have to sacrifice my right hand in order to operate it. Things were getting dicey enough I would not have done that even with the cell phone. Plus, no crime was committed by anyone so there was nothing to call about.

Most street dealers have one or two "lookouts / accomplices" and are almost always armed.
Click to expand...

It's a good point, but I"m positive he had no backup. His manner was nervous and shall we say unprofessional. I've seen the professional dealers, and they keep a very low profile. They're happy to do their thing from their cars and quickly drive off. This was a punk, which is something far more dangerous. He was clearly flicking me trouble to make up for his own uncertainty.

I think I could have done more to put him at ease, though I didn't want to make him think I was an easy mark. Guys like that can go off any second, esp. when wired on hard drugs.

As far as the dog, yes he's trained to defend me at close range, but in this case I was worried about a 15 foot gunfight. If he'd tried to come cut me, the dog would have neutralized him instantly. It's wildly fired bullets I was worried about. It's a grey zone not really covered in training. Do you send the dog, or hold him back?

I could have told the dog to start barking and guarding, but I was concerned that would just panic the guy and make him reach for a firearm if he had it. That's not what I wanted to trigger. Though if he'd continued to approach without drawing that would have been my next move. He was astonishingly stupid to challenge me in the first place with that dog by my side, but some people are so many cans short of a sixpack they think they can kill a dog with their knife or beat it down. Methed up, they think they're superman. It's a tricky business.

One thing this really drives home for me is how hard it is to change your position once the trouble starts. I had plenty of excellent concealment and cover close at hand, but I couldn't go to it without risking escalation and more to the point I would have lost my good view of him. The advantage of staying put was I had a really good look at his hands. I decided it was worth giving up potential cover to keep that view. Plus keep in mind the surface of the alley is solid pack ice and snow.

Thanks for all the input!
 
I think one of the hardest things for someone to wrap their head around is that a trained dog could be expendable. They are trained to protect you. It could be the only chance you have. Expend your dog and save your life.

Most of us will get too attached to our dogs. One reason I will never have an attack trained dog again. I would hesitate to use him when I may need to. Anymore I only train them to alert me to a possible thread. I will deal with it after that.

But I think, other then not being in the situation in the first place, you handled it well. You did not escalate it, you gave the BG a way out, everyone went home.
 
TallPine suggested:
Yeah, or maybe something like: "Hallo, ciamar a tha thu? Tha i glè fhuar a-nochd, nach eil?"
Click to expand...

Yeah, but what if you reminded him of the guy that took his prime couch spot on the Stornoway ferry? Then he'd be really mad.
 
Well, here's something to consider: When excited, undisciplined shooters tend to jerk their shots low and to the non dominate side (credit Steve Wenger). So, (assuming the shooter is right handed) I'd walk a bit to your left also making the backstop for your shooting the garage. Admittedly this is a gamble but if you have to shoot use the better backstop. Walking laterally is generally not perceived an immediate threat, so you should be able to cross behind your dog unit. Thusly if muttley attacks him his shooting should be low and to your right and maybe the dog's also.

Of course, observations from the Internet are often worth less than you paid... :)
 
I think the 3032 is neat, and not a bad curio, but I really can't justify staking my life on one when the p3at is about the same size and more powerful.
 
Cosmoline,

I sincerely appreciate you sharing this Encounter. It is not easy to do. It is not easy to get it down on paper, and remember everything. Not easy to hang yourself out for critique.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. Some really good lessons and sharing in this thread.

Thanks!

Steve
 
You could've taken a page from the Arsenic and Old Lace tactics handbook - the scene where the newcomer's about to drink the poisoned wine and Cary Grant screams out "YOU! Get out of here. Do you want to be poisoned? Do you want to be murdered? Do you want to be KILLED?"

You could've used the Gecko45 method, and have your dog lie down and absorb fire while you use him/her for a pistol rest.
 
All your excitement may have been avoided by simply replying to his initial greeting. Not that you want to be his friend but a simple "howdy", a head nod, or even a wave of the hand lets you convey self-confidence and non-aggressiveness. He may well have simply wanted to clarify your intent. It's normal to be concerned when a greeting is ignored.

I've hunted with and shot around several dogs over the years. Never shot one by accident but that possibility does exist. Their expendability is something you should come to terms with in advance. It did not take me a lot of effort not to shoot one. I found timing my shots (to miss them) a very natural thing to do. That may be common? There are not a lot of dog shot by accident stories going around.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

J
  • Locked
Bad dog! Hello? 911?
Replies
19
Views
1K
NozlerAtClemson
N
mrblenderson
  • Locked
Best Gun For Dog Attack
2 3 4 5
Replies
114
Views
9K
Kleanbore
K
J
  • Locked
My little story. You tell me what you think.
2
Replies
34
Views
3K
justatexasboy
J
G
  • Locked
You never had problems like this. What would you have done?
Replies
7
Views
1K
goon
G
E
  • Locked
Dog Psychology...
2
Replies
35
Views
2K
Edward429451
E
Back
Top