Dog Psychology...

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Edward429451

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Interesting day saturday. Our own dog went traitor and bit 3 family members. The wife getting loaded up for us to go visit a friend and the BIL and my son get into a fight. Nothing serious, some shouting and BIL grabbed son by the shirt front and the dog jumps up and lays hold of sons hand. BIL tries to pull dog off of my son and dog turns on him. Wife tries to get dog off of BIL and dog turns on her. ***?

Son has one hand chewed up and one ankle, puncture wounds. BIL got the worst of it, missing a chunk of meat from one palm and some puncture wounds. Wife has puncture wounds on both hands.

Dog is a pure bred Sheperd. He's usually very docile and obedient and only has shown aggression towards strangers and uniformed people (mailman & police).

What would trigger the dog to do this? He's well cared for, not abused, and has never exibited this behavior before. He leads kind of a sheltered life, in the house mostly, occassional walks and chained up in back for the rest. I rolled up right after it happened and the dog acted scared and hid from me, for good reason. My first thought was to shoot him and be done with it. I didn't. From what I hear, once a dog turns like this, he's not safe to keep around anymore. He recognizes me alone as master, gauging from his obediance. He listens fairly well for family members, and always for me.

Not gun related par se beyond the thought of shooting him, but I'd appreciate it if you mods would let this thread stay open so I can maybe glean some insight from some knowledgable dog people on the board and try to understand what the heck my options are according to doggie psychology.

The only aggreession he's shown before is growling at playtime tug o' war with a toy, but not viciously. His behavior has been normal since. Do I get rid of the dog and get another? Is the dog's pack mentality telling him that he's #2 in the house, and he was taking charge in his mind, or what?

Frustrated. All serious comments welcome.
 
I think he was confused/frightened by the fighting. We had a dog who'd get like that when my brother and I would fight or wrestle when we were kids.

I'd be a bit worried abt the adult family members; grabbing sounds like at least bordering on "serious". If there's a lot of arguing and fighting going on, that'll upset a dog as well.
 
The dog didn't go traitor; he was confused by his human pack fighting amongst themselves. As far as I can tell from your story, he first
  • tried to help your BIL discipline your son.
When your BIL turned around and tried to stop the dog from "helping," he sent the dog a signal that said he (the dog) was now on the pack's bad-guys list, so the dog
  • fought off your BIL.
When your wife got into the act, she confused the issue even further, because she confirmed in the dog's mind that his human pack had turned on him.

The wife getting loaded up for us to go visit a friend and the BIL and my son get into a fight. Nothing serious, some shouting and BIL grabbed son by the shirt front and the dog jumps up and lays hold of sons hand. BIL tries to pull dog off of my son and dog turns on him. Wife tries to get dog off of BIL and dog turns on her. ***?
Click to expand...

Dunno what to tell you about the future. Almost any smart, aggressive dog will get involved when humans start fighting. If you decide to keep him, don't lay hands on each other or yell at each other in front of him.

pax
 
I don't know if it is a factor in THIS case but most of the dog-just-went-Postal stories I know of are for German Shepards. Pax could also be absolutely right. It is nice to have some protection instinct in a dog.

I had an Australian Shepard ("Ollie") bite a mother who jerked her child away from the dog while the kid was petting him. If I recall correctly he was tied up outside a laudromat I was in and plenty of witnesses defended my dog's behavior.

Ollie was the smartest dog I ever had and he lived to 21 years.
 
$0.02

"Is the dog's pack mentality telling him that he's #2 in the house, and he was taking charge in his mind, or what?"

this is a real possibility. if BIL is a live-in member of family it might be good to spend some time teaching "dog" to obey comands from each family member, one at a time. this wll not garinty that the behavor wont happen again but it is a start.
i noticed that you did not mention your dogs name, is he a trained gaurd dog? if so trained gaurd dogs will often (when it involves two family members) take on the preceived agressor.
 
It sounds like the dog was trying to join in a pack fight. This isn't unnatural behavior. Every GSD I've been around wants to join in a fight. BUT you must have enough control to out the dog before it does any serious harm. If you don't have this control, either the dog is flawed or has never been trained for bite work.

This business of turning and biting those who come to stop him has got to stop. Ironically I think the best way to teach a dog to stop biting in this way is to teach the dog TO BITE, but correctly. And to out on command.

BTW, the circumstances you describe are cause for immediate and severe physical intervention by the pack leader (you). If a dog of mine did this, the dog would be up in the air by the tail and scruff in seconds and would have the crap beaten out of it by me. This sounds awful, but when a GSD's blood is up and they start to bite people without command(!!), sometimes severe and instant correction by the owner is the only way to stop it. The next step after the dog is calmed would be proper bite training with positive correction (ie treats not hitting). But when the blood is flowing and commands aren't working, THAT is a time for instant (and it MUST be instant to get the message across) physical expression of dominance. Just as with breaking up any dog fight.

If you weren't there, then somebody with alpha authority over the dog should have been . Your wife and kid should have this. Someone with authority to get the dog to out and to control the dog must always be with the dog when others are around, or the dog must be crated. These are the facts of life.

Is this an American-line GSD BTW or a European line GSD?
 
I am no dog expert, but i can give you my experince i had with my dog.

I had a dog as a child and any time some one started physically fighting she would start grawling and if you didnt stop she would bite who ever she thought the agressor was, seems odd she bit your BIL in this case, I would contact your VET and see what they think about the cituation, and go from there.

And if you do keep the dog make d@mn sure no one fights infront of him.
 
Very interesting replies.

Max is a 4 yr old American Shep, single owner from 8 wks. No formal training of any type, family dog. I must be the only one with alpha authority over him because I'm the only one he listens to with any regularity. I know enough about dogs to know that they need clear cut dominance so do not let him get away with disobeying commands, while they rest of the family admittedly let the family poochie slide a lot of the time. Hmm. I wasn't there to call him down, didn't think I really needed to be until now. I feel like an idiot for letting the fam let the dog get away with disobediance at all. I did uh, assert some alpha on him upon my return and he does seem to be listening better to everyone since the incident.

I think pax is exactly right as to what happened. I thank cosmoline for pointing me in the right direction to correction. Thanks to all really, at this point, I'm encouraged that we can safely keep the dog with a better understanding of why it happened and incline everyone to stricter control of the beast. He's a good dog and the failing that day was our own.
 
I still want to know WHY the BIL and your son were into it and WHY you seem cool with the fact that your BIL was grabbing your son. I would not accept that seemingly rude behaviour in a BIL. The dog may have more sense than you are giving it credit for. My old dog used to GROWL and show what was left of his teeth at my ex. He was right. I should have listened and I would have had more money, fewer headaches, lower blood pressure AND no inlaws sooner!:evil: I still miss my dog. He was 21 when he passed on. I do not miss my ex.:neener:
 
My first thought was to shoot him and be done with it.
Click to expand...
Good instinct.
I didn't.
Click to expand...
Mistake.

Let's review . . . I'll assume you, your wife, and your son all live together, and BIL normally lives elsewhere.

Let's see . . . BIL grabs your son, who I presume is a member of your household . . . and Fido bites your son? A good dog would have come to PROTECT a member of "his" household, especially a kid. Dogs raised in a household with children tend to become very protective of "their" kids. (You didn't mention your kid's age.)

Then BIL tries to pull dog off, and only then does Fido bite BIL.

Wife comes to pull Fido off . . . and Fido turns on wife?

Sad to say, some dogs, like some people, are just no good. If Fido were mine, he'd be history.
 
I don't think four years old is too late to do some serious training. Any reputable trainers in the area? Mine is seven and still learns stuff relatively quickly.

We too have an issue with dog thinking he is higher up in the pack than some family members. Unfortunately those family members don't buy in to the whole dog psychology thing. You do have to kick the animal's ass sometimes as Cosmoline says.

What Hank says is interesting - is the BIL a regular and does he partake in disciplining your son very often? If this is the case then the dog didn't turn traitor, he merely joined in a pack situation helping to put a lesser member of the pack down. It may be a problem if he views your son this way. As for others then intervening and him biting them, pax is probably right, the dog felt threatened socially and physically.

My dog isn't particularly aggressive and I have never encouraged any aggressive behaviour, nor have I discouraged barking at the doorbell. I trust his pack and territory instincts as regards potential intruders. Hope I'm not disproved on this. I worry about training dogs to be aggressive, dogs that are taken on by the police over here but then fail after a certain stage of training are destroyed rather than rehomed - they can be dangerous.
 
GSDs are bred to be "regulators". If the flock needs to be controlled, they are there and ready. The same instincts that lead these beasts to die protecting you from aggressors can cause problems in a dysfunctional household. No insult intended, but remember that absent strong leadership they are on autopilot. They have very strong "drives" bred into them and seek harmony, not justice. Training for people control demands obedience to a single alpha leader. Training for family life demands obedience to all family members.

edited to add: Training does not involve beating to submission. Twenty minutes after the incident, the dog wouldn't know what he was being disciplined for. Establishing obedience and the authority to other family members can be as simple as leash control by family members and maybe simple command obedience like "come", "heel", "stop". Allowing BIL to assume family control sends a cloudy message to the dog. They are wired pretty simply and don't fathom human politics very well. I don't either. If my BIL was strongly disciplining one of mine, the dog would rank low on his list of immediate problems.:D
 
To clarify;

BIL is a member of the household, lives here and the dog is well aquainted with him. BIL is a mild mannered soft spoken guy who does not create disturbances in my home. He is full of respect for all of us but does have a limit.

My son is a 17.5 yr old somewhat immature kid with a provocative mouth. He needs to grow out of it and learn more respect for others. I believe he sees BIL's mild mannered behavior as a weakness which he sometimes trys to exploit for giggles. It was not a question of who started it, but what'd the boy do this time?

BIL was not out of line I'm certain. I would not let that fly. Shooting the dog seems like an easy out but I realize would be incorrect and not the root of the problem. The problem is the fam beyond me is too lax with the dog, and possibly the son but you can't beat respect into a person. Come to think of it, the dog has got excited before and barked at my son when he was being belliggerant and being yelled at...but I was there and told the dog to go lay down and he did. Apparently we missed the warning sign there. When the dog gets yelled at less than the son, its plausible that the dog saw himself as higher in the pack than the son and was likely trying to help discipline the son as pax suggested. In the abscense of an alpha at the time, the dog went full auto and reverted to self preservation mode when other non alpha pack members tried to stop him.

We're going to work with the dog with all family members starting immed., and if the dog responds well we will keep him. At this point, I don't believe the dog was at fault. We were.
 
Edward429451

Sounds like you already knew all the answers. It is almost impossible to get family members to approach "dog discipline" properly. My GSD has many gafs in her conduct and training due to a spouse who would immediately countermand training in the early months and years. You are left with more compulsive training techniques - ugh! - or living with the problems created - picking up on the signs of impending trouble. Good luck on the teen, also. My experience - 3 sons with the youngest now 19 - is that alot of this stuff goes away by the time they hit early twenties.
 
I think you are on the right lines there.

I'm no dog training expert but just getting family members to do simple training exercises with the dog, sit, stay etc may make a big difference.

To me it seems the dog thinks he is in control when you are not around, and certainly 'higher up' than your son (who btw will grow out of it). This makes for a stressed pooch. Relieved of his 'responsibilities' you'll probably have a happier dog.

Best of luck.
 
One of my Dobermans is like this. She has no tolerance for any violence in her presence unless she's administering it. Her track record of going after the one who "started it" is unblemished. We've mostly broken her of this behavior, but she still postures and occasionally takes a snap. It's a tough nut to crack.
 
I did uh, assert some alpha on him upon my return and he does seem to be listening better to everyone since the incident.
Click to expand...
No. You were too late. He is scared of you now, not obeying better. You have to inflict punishment right away if it is to be understood by the dog. Glad you didn't shoot him. Sounds like he was just confused a little, that's all.

GT
 
TarpleyG is correct, no correction of behaviour at the time of incident and in 1 minute, the dog doesn't know what it's being reprimanded for.

4 years old is beyond a training stage. Most trained dogs get that between 1 and 1 1/2 years of age when they are trainable. It will be uphill to change the behaviour now at best.

As well, the alpha pecking order has already been established by family members as far as the dog is concerned. He may baulk at taking a back seat now to one he presumed he was alpha over.

When my Akita snapped at my wife for taking a toy away at 4 months old, I made her bite the dog on the ear enough for it to yelp and understand the pecking order.

It's me, her and then the dog. She understood that as long as she lived until last year when I had her put down due to health and age. The order needs to be established early orthey are prone to challenge afterwards [ this can lead to more serious injuries in the next incident IMO.

I've had trained dogs for quite some time, thoguh the Akita was purely a pet by those standards. She was ever vigilant on her own but not trained other than obedience at 11 months old.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but the dog needs to go now that it has established dominance by biting other family members. They do NOT forget and are then prone to repeat the biting even sooner the next time unless you are right there on top of it which you can not rely on.

My opinion? The family needs to be trained on how to assert authority of alpha with a dog when it is in it's first year or less. Otherwise there can always be issues down the road.

Too risky, the next time it happens may be worse in the wounds suffered by family members.

Just my .02 from experience with trained and untrained dogs for the last 30 years.

Brownie
 
...Nope...A 4 YO still has the capacity to learn, the question is, at this point, do YOU have the skill and patience to do it. Remember...he's an ALPHA MALE TOO...he's only submissive with YOU...The reason most dogs go untrained when they get older is that they now weigh 100 lbs and it's entirely possible that he'll have to be faced off with at some point. If you don't do this on a regular basis, please don't start learning now... The VALUE of a big male is just the qualities that make him special. He IS at a turning point however, and so are you...You can either intervene now or he will come back at some point when your household gets out of control or at some other non-specific trigger that sets him off. He needs to go to a pro and get handled properly if you care about him...If you don't...then go ahead and find him a nice home in the country where he'll be appreciated and you'll all be better off.
If you're really wanting to go the distance, find a trainer that you like and respect and BOTH of you go and get trained. Sometimes a trainer will take the dog for a week and then have you start with him the next week or so...Just depends on how busy they are, what the geography and logistics add up to...There are alternatives, but you don't have much more time to play around...
Please don't let your pride get involved and get yourself, the animal, or someone else hurt. I'm sure you can find someone in that part of the country that specializes in obedience and security...Just get the obedience squared away...

...sorry about the space, didn't realize I was preachin'...
smoker.gif


Good luck...
Oh BTW...if you aren't correcting the bahavior on the spot, then you are punishing him...People get punished, dogs only understand correction...
 
Edward, you seem to be getting it right. Hope you can get the rest of the household to get it at all.

We have a black russian terrier. It is a dominant breed and ours is a male. Thourough consistency in the demands for the dog's behavior by the wife and me, obedience practice (ok, a little more than just the basics) and constant yielding practice has provided us with a happy everyday life with zero leadership problems. This link was just the first a google search gave, an adequate presentation of what it's about. Familiar?

With the little nephews and nieces visiting or us visiting them I always have them make the dog yield, watching from a distance (never let the little ones entirely by themselves with it, though). I show the kids how, explain why it's done and practice a little first to see that they present a confident picture of themselves walking through the dog, making it move out of the way. Then we let the dog forget the situation (yes, that takes less than a minute - with a hard dog the forgetting is instantaneous) and then the kids one by one take a few trial runs with me spying. Continued all thru the day, this makes the dog present them appeasement gestures all along, i.e. establishes a constant order where all humans are above it. So no business disciplining your superiors.

My €.02. Wish you, the family and Max all the best: dogs can learn all thru their lives. How else would any rescue dogs find their place in a whole new pack? Pessimisti non carborundum. :D
 
I dont think I buy it that the dog forgot what he did. I don't think I walked in in the same minute that it happened but it within five minutes for sure. He always greets me at the door (pleasantly) excited, and this time he was hiding and looking very guilty and scared when I walked up to him. How could he both forget it and remember he dominated them later at the same time? That don't make sense.

Even now a few days later, when one of the fam shows max their wounds and says look what you did max, his ears flatten a little and he heads the other way to look for a place to lay down...He remembers all right.

I like the idea of getting him into training though. Should the whole family attend the class? Sounds like they should.
 
Not much to add; you’ve gotten some good advice.

Yes, the whole family should participate in the training, and learn how to properly show the dog who’s boss. Dogs with strong alpha drives are tricky. Even when you think you’ve won, they still come back to challenge you.

Consistency with your family members is key, especially at 4 years old.

Good luck with Max. It sounds like he is still looking for approval from your family. That’s a good place to start with the training.

Marty
 
Interesting articles:

http://www.doggiedoor.com/aggressi.shtml

When working with an aggressive dog (or any dog) it is very important that you teach with praise. Using aggression to solve aggression simply doesn't work. You want to harness your dog's WTS so that he becomes happiest when he pleases you. If he presently has a high WTP, or a strong fear-base for aggression, it will undermine your attempts to scold him. So... never scold him; teach him instead. Teach him how you want him to behave. He's behaving the only way he knows how and it's probably worked very well for all of his life! You need to give him a reason to change his behavior.

http://www.leerburg.com/dominac2.htm

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/canwehelp/dbdominance.htm
 
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