madmike
Member
I had trouble deciding between the 93 Mauser, 95 Mauser, SMLE, K31 or M44.
So I compromised and got them all
So I compromised and got them all
Mil-surp worth scoping?
- Thread starter rugerdude
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dstorm1911
Member
Rugerdude, WHICH Mosin Nagant are ya not impressed with? I've got several 91/30s that will easily shoot 2-3" groups at 100 yards with very little effort off hand unscoped, I've got Mosin snipers that will do it with even less effort at longer ranges....
Now bore selection is critical AND stock bedding, if the stock isn't bedded correctly ya aren't going to get any rifle to shoot worth cr@p.
If your talking about an M44 well they were not intended to be sniper rifles, acuracy is killed due to the mounted bayo
Now bore selection is critical AND stock bedding, if the stock isn't bedded correctly ya aren't going to get any rifle to shoot worth cr@p.
If your talking about an M44 well they were not intended to be sniper rifles, acuracy is killed due to the mounted bayo
oldfart
Member
The throat of a military Mauser barrel is usually pretty long. That allows you to use almost any ammo without worrying about overpressure but it does detract from the accuracy. You might get a decent rifle, go through all the stuff needed to use a scope and still not get the accuracy you'd like.
I mounted a Parker-Hale .308 barrel on mine and now have a decent target rifle. As has been said several times already, I could probably have bought a Savage for less. What I couldn't get though, is the knowledge I gained by doing the work myself. Besides, it was fun to see what I could do with that beat-up old Turk.
I mounted a Parker-Hale .308 barrel on mine and now have a decent target rifle. As has been said several times already, I could probably have bought a Savage for less. What I couldn't get though, is the knowledge I gained by doing the work myself. Besides, it was fun to see what I could do with that beat-up old Turk.
k31
Member
CB....... you don't mean that guy Sven, do you?? 
Do you know the history of the Bern Swiss factory and theirs?
P
Do you know the history of the Bern Swiss factory and theirs?
P
Davo
Member
I know you werent feeling it but if there is one milsurp worth scoping its the
K31! If you are reloading you will be fine, but even the surplus out there is not THAT expensive especially considering its about the quality of US military match ammo. With a good clamp on scope mount, tactical scope, and rings you would be in business for about 350-400 bucks.
K31! If you are reloading you will be fine, but even the surplus out there is not THAT expensive especially considering its about the quality of US military match ammo. With a good clamp on scope mount, tactical scope, and rings you would be in business for about 350-400 bucks.
Davo
Member
Don't Tread On Me
Member
Get a Savage; the internet grossly exaggerates the accuracy of milsurp rifles. Miracle "group of the day/week/month/year" doesn't count as the rifle's measure of accuracy.
Makes you wonder why all those idiots spend $3,000 for rifles to shoot long range and get that 1/2 MOA performance?
Morons could have bought a $100 Mosin and given it a little tender lovin' care with reloads and have it go head to head with an AI.
A budget Savage won't be a high end long range rifle with AI accuracy, but at least it won't pattern a paper plate.
Ever heard the saying "you get what you pay for" ? There's a reason most milsurps are $100 ~
K31 with it's match-grade ammo, never-seen-war barrels, and constant arsenal maintenance is an exception.
Makes you wonder why all those idiots spend $3,000 for rifles to shoot long range and get that 1/2 MOA performance?
Morons could have bought a $100 Mosin and given it a little tender lovin' care with reloads and have it go head to head with an AI.
A budget Savage won't be a high end long range rifle with AI accuracy, but at least it won't pattern a paper plate.
Ever heard the saying "you get what you pay for" ? There's a reason most milsurps are $100 ~
K31 with it's match-grade ammo, never-seen-war barrels, and constant arsenal maintenance is an exception.
MrDig
Member
Well I tend to disagree slightly with Don't Tread On Me. There are some extremely accurate Mil-Surp Rifles out there. It was part of the Qualification process for them to be considered a stadard military weapon. That being said tinkering with them can get spendy fast. Particularily if you want to Accurize them. Depending on the make rebarreling them is expensive unless you get a used barrel from Numrich or the like.
Mausers seem to be the Milsurp of record for tinkerers and customizers. any other will be a rude awakening from a price point comparison.
The most accurate off the shelf of the armory and into your collection?
Swiss K-31
Swedish Mauser 6.5
The next
any of the 8mm mausers
O3A3
Enfield
There is no particular order to the listed weapons None, they are grouped by their reported accuracy, not in order of their accuracy.
Mausers seem to be the Milsurp of record for tinkerers and customizers. any other will be a rude awakening from a price point comparison.
The most accurate off the shelf of the armory and into your collection?
Swiss K-31
Swedish Mauser 6.5
The next
any of the 8mm mausers
O3A3
Enfield
There is no particular order to the listed weapons None, they are grouped by their reported accuracy, not in order of their accuracy.
Here's the thing, my reloading setup will be the cheapest I can get. I'm going to be loading my .303 with a $20 dollar lee loader and a scale. I'm not a very serious shooter most of the time. I want cheap surplus ammo to practice with and have fun with while not worrying about how much it cost me. My .303 is pricey enough. I'm 16 and while I do have a job, I've got gas and insurance to worry about as well as supporting my gun addiction.
I'll admit I am tempted by the K-31, I have nothing against it, but the ammo cost and I may end up getting one anyway, but it will be the same story as my enfield: One of my most expensive guns and the one that gets shot the least.
My most valuable gun is my Lee Enfield at a whopping $150 dollars for the gun and $150 dollars for the scope and mount. I am a die hard bargain hunter, but I have yet to be dissapointed.
However, I'm planning ahead, and I have a couple months until the next worthwhile gunshow. I should have around 400 dollars at that point if I save really well. It will also come down to what feels nice.
Thanks for the replies, this is very helpful.
I'll admit I am tempted by the K-31, I have nothing against it, but the ammo cost and I may end up getting one anyway, but it will be the same story as my enfield: One of my most expensive guns and the one that gets shot the least.
My most valuable gun is my Lee Enfield at a whopping $150 dollars for the gun and $150 dollars for the scope and mount. I am a die hard bargain hunter, but I have yet to be dissapointed.
However, I'm planning ahead, and I have a couple months until the next worthwhile gunshow. I should have around 400 dollars at that point if I save really well. It will also come down to what feels nice.
Thanks for the replies, this is very helpful.
TooTaxed
Member
My SKS with inexpensive 3 x 9 scope and mount, case deflector, and detachable magazine...both necessary if you use a scope extending over the action...hits the 300-yd 10-inch square steel target at my range every shot with Wolf HP ammo (the most accurate ammo for this rifle). It's fun to shoot.
You aren't going to get a combo nearly as accurate as the Savage 10 (which I also have), but as long as any milsurp rifle bore is in excellent condition I'd consider scoping as an option. But expect the shots to wander as the stock-bound barrel heats up unless you can free-float it.
You aren't going to get a combo nearly as accurate as the Savage 10 (which I also have), but as long as any milsurp rifle bore is in excellent condition I'd consider scoping as an option. But expect the shots to wander as the stock-bound barrel heats up unless you can free-float it.
cracked butt
Member
I think that bears repeating. Most milsurps don't shoot any better than a semi-skilled shooter can shoot them with iron sights. Putting a scope on them is a waste- with a few noted exceptions.
longrifleman
Member
When I was 16, Krags, 03's, 03A3's, Trapdoors were common and cheap, even for a 16 year old. Now, cheap they ain't. Buy quality while you can. Get a K31. Now. Down the road you will really appreciate it. Then get a Swedish Mauser.
As for scoping mil-surps, I think it is entirely a personal decision. I have both modern rifles and old bolties scoped up. The modern rifles are slightly more accurate but the old ones are more fun to fool with. Part of the enjoyment is trying to figure out how to make the older guns reach their full potential. If you just want to pick up a gun and shoot ragged holes in paper, go modern. You will have to be very patient and a little lucky to put together a scoped mil-surp cheaper and better than buying a modern rifle.
DMK
Member
If you want cheap to shoot with decent accuracy, save up and get a Finnish M39. You won't get match accuracy with most cheap 7.62x54R surplus, but with handloads you will.
dstorm1911
Member
The K-31 already has a free floated barrel,
Rugerdude, the K-31 doesn't have to be your least shot rifle, if ya will have $400 then try something, if ya aren't happy ya can e-mail me an I'll buy the rifle and scope etc... off ya guaranteed provided ya do a couple things.
Get a K-31 now for a collector rifle the Walnut stocked are the ones to have However the Beech stocked are later issue, as a basic starter get either the walnut will set ya back about $30 more than the Beech stock, but make sure its an all matching rifle,
While your at the Gunshow get at least one 60 rnd pack of GP11 ammo (this will run ya around $24 some vendors gouge ya at the shows to $30 or so...
Now after the show ya go shoot it as is, and see how impressed ya are, if your not drop me an e-mail and I'll buy the rifle off ya all your out is a lil time.
I don't think ya will wanna get rid of it but if ya do I have an FFL ya can ship it directly to me with no ffl fees on your end.
If ya like it then go to Graf and sons website and order ya a set off LEE dies they will be $19.99 shipped then order ya some .308 diam 168 grn bullets, now with the $$ ya have left don't just buy un-primed brass unless ya find a really good deal, 9ya can form .284 winchester brass easily BTW into 7.55 brass) Instead buy loaded brass case boxer primed ammo, now order that clamp on scope mount and get ya a used Leupold scope, watch the swap meets and yard sales ya might be surprised how many folks are sellin off old leupolds cheap and with the unlimited lifetime warranty its like buying used Snap on tools on the cheap...
put your new Sniper rifle together and have fun, to mess with the guys shootin their Savage 110s and stuff, remove the scope and put it in your bag yA might even wanna pickup onea the Diopter rear sights instead of the scope, it'll surprise ya what that sight will let ya do, be aware though that the Stock front sight will shoot about 4" high .... the Swiss sighted em in at 200 meters not 100, ya can get a taller front sight to bring it down to American ranges for $14.99 from Tennessee guns..
Like I said, if your not impressed I'll buy it from ya and ya can go shopping again.
Rugerdude, the K-31 doesn't have to be your least shot rifle, if ya will have $400 then try something, if ya aren't happy ya can e-mail me an I'll buy the rifle and scope etc... off ya guaranteed provided ya do a couple things.
Get a K-31 now for a collector rifle the Walnut stocked are the ones to have However the Beech stocked are later issue, as a basic starter get either the walnut will set ya back about $30 more than the Beech stock, but make sure its an all matching rifle,
While your at the Gunshow get at least one 60 rnd pack of GP11 ammo (this will run ya around $24 some vendors gouge ya at the shows to $30 or so...
Now after the show ya go shoot it as is, and see how impressed ya are, if your not drop me an e-mail and I'll buy the rifle off ya all your out is a lil time.
I don't think ya will wanna get rid of it but if ya do I have an FFL ya can ship it directly to me with no ffl fees on your end.
If ya like it then go to Graf and sons website and order ya a set off LEE dies they will be $19.99 shipped then order ya some .308 diam 168 grn bullets, now with the $$ ya have left don't just buy un-primed brass unless ya find a really good deal, 9ya can form .284 winchester brass easily BTW into 7.55 brass) Instead buy loaded brass case boxer primed ammo, now order that clamp on scope mount and get ya a used Leupold scope, watch the swap meets and yard sales ya might be surprised how many folks are sellin off old leupolds cheap and with the unlimited lifetime warranty its like buying used Snap on tools on the cheap...
put your new Sniper rifle together and have fun, to mess with the guys shootin their Savage 110s and stuff, remove the scope and put it in your bag
yA might even wanna pickup onea the Diopter rear sights instead of the scope, it'll surprise ya what that sight will let ya do, be aware though that the Stock front sight will shoot about 4" high .... the Swiss sighted em in at 200 meters not 100, ya can get a taller front sight to bring it down to American ranges for $14.99 from Tennessee guns..Like I said, if your not impressed I'll buy it from ya and ya can go shopping again.
Wow, heck of an offer. It's certainly impressive to see any gun have that kind of following.
Well, we shall see. The gunshow is a couple months off, and I have yet to see what my enfield will do and I have yet to get a membership to the local 1,000 yard range (but that should happen shortly).
In the end, I'll bet it will all come down to which one looks and feels the best when I'm right there looking at it. However, it's always good to have lots of background info!
Well, we shall see. The gunshow is a couple months off, and I have yet to see what my enfield will do and I have yet to get a membership to the local 1,000 yard range (but that should happen shortly).
In the end, I'll bet it will all come down to which one looks and feels the best when I'm right there looking at it. However, it's always good to have lots of background info!
I've never bought into the "milsurps are crap, if you want accurate buy new" argument. The problem with milsurps is that some have seen a lot of use and abuse. I think if you find a 1903, Enfield or K-31 with a great bore chances are that it will be just as accurate as an off the shelf modern bolt action. Put a scope on it, make sure the trigger is nice and smooth or buy a good trigger for it, and load it with good ammo. I'm not knocking modern bolt actions either. I think if you took a Savage and mounted the iron sights and trigger off of a 1903 onto it there would be no difference in accuracy between that rifle and a stock, mint condition 1903.
Well, all of this info has been extremely helpful in pointing me to the one, truly correct solution, and I'm sure you'll agree with it:
I'll just get both!
I figure that I can't go wrong that way....and I'll have not one, but TWO new guns to add to my collection.
Scoping can wait, I actually love iron sights.....I've just been a little optics crazy lately.
However, I did get tech sights for my SKS, so that was definitely money well spent.
Thanks everyone!
I'll just get both!
I figure that I can't go wrong that way....and I'll have not one, but TWO new guns to add to my collection.
Scoping can wait, I actually love iron sights.....I've just been a little optics crazy lately.
However, I did get tech sights for my SKS, so that was definitely money well spent.
Thanks everyone!
cracked butt
Member
Chances are that it won't be with the possible exception of the K-31.
In 1903s, 03A3s and especially enfields, there is a fairly wide variation in the acceptable bore and groove diameters, while a modern factory rifle has much tighter qc standards. A 1903 might need .310" bullets to match its groove diameter or a enfield might need .315" bullets to match its groove diameter toshoot its best, while a remington or a savage will shoot .308" bullets perfectly.
kungfuhippie
Member
Agreed, you must gauge the bore, better yet slug it to find out what to use/if it will shoot accuratly. A rebarrel and match trigger will give you a very accurate rifle that is sturdier than a modern savage IMHO. It was designed to take battle abuse and have a bayonet on the end. The savage was designed to shoot white tail from a tree stand. They are both good guns, just don't expect one to work well at the other's job.
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