Military Police?

[GRIZ22]

For your first sentence, wait until you get into a police academy. Yes, you will be taught defensive tactics, but the amount of criminal law that is thrown at you is almost frightening for the uninitiated.

I got 40 hours of just search and seizure in a federal academy. A lot more (I've been told) than you get in law school.

 

[Frog48]

Then get out on the street, with REAL cops, not some folks in the classroom. You'll see the difference real quick.

Well, seeing as though my girlfriend's grandfather is retired from the Johnson County sheriff's office (both as a deputy and elected Sheriff), my former neighbor is the Arlington chief of police, and brother's father-in-law is a retired Hurst PD officer, and several of my friends are Fort Worth, Arlington, and Dallas officers. I'm pretty sure that I've spent more time around "real" cops than most people. And I still stand by my remarks about the bad attitude pervasive in LE.

Until law enforcement requires at least a BA or BS, it will never be professional. Texas requires only 12 hours of college credit to be TCLEOSE certified, so essentially we have high school grads as police officers. Careers with low standards do not attract quality people. You dont see Ivy League grads working at JiffyLube and Walmart, do you? Until qualification criteria changes, law enforcement will be stuck with a blue-collar culture and attitude.

 

[whited]

.

law enforcement will be stuck with a blue-collar culture and attitude

I agree with you, but I think its also a culture similar to the mafia and
us-versus-them mentality.

 

[ArmedBear]

Well, now, I'm a college grad myself, from a relativey prestigious institution.

And there are aspects of the "blue collar attitude" that I LIKE. A LOT. Blue collar environments can have a, "let's get the job done, cut the BS and let's go!" atmosphere that white collar environments, which sometimes thrive on BS, lack. And college sure doesn't make lousy people into better people.

"Professionalism" is about something else.

On the other hand, I HAVE noticed a lack of critical thinking among LEO's, when it comes to things like the "drug war," for example. I was talking to a local cop a few months ago, and he parrotted this ridiculous spiel he'd been taught about the evils of marijuana. (He was drinking beer at the time, so apparently he had no problem with other mild recreational intoxicants.)

What he said was so far outside reality that I had to conclude one of two things: he had never seen marijuana in his life, or he accepted whatever he was told by his department, even it if didn't pass the "smell test". I doubt he'd never had any contact with pot, so it had to be the second option.

It was downright scary. I had to ask myself what ELSE he would uncritically believe, if he were told, and what he'd be willing to do to his fellow citizens if he were told to.

 

[BrianB]

CCW is a deterrent threat to bad guys. More deterrent might reduce the police "need" for such equipment. My PD says they'd like a lot more guys like us. I mean, why wouldn't they want well-trained backup from CCW civies?

 

[ArmedBear]

My PD says they'd like a lot more guys like us.

Not the PD around here.

 

[Risasi]

I am perfectly fine with Local PD's getting this kind of equipment. It's not the equipment which is a problem. Many want to constrict what they have because it's "scary". Well in my mind that is a double standard. That is the same reason libs want to disarm the populace. I say live and let live. Do not restrict the law abider, and do not restrict the law enforcer when it comes to equipment.
And let's be honest, we want to arm ourselves with such toys due to the escalation of firepower by the real bad guys. At least some deep seated instinct tells us this for our own self preservation.


We now have drug runners and the like who will commonly carry semi automatic rifles. Do they know how to use them? No, usually you are scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to bad guys. That's why they are bad guys, normal life is too hard for them. Generally they are losers. So obviously a truly adept gunman is not all that common. But when the movie "Heat" came out, and then those two screwballs in the north Hollywood shootout mimicked it, well a lot of police officers sat up and took notice. Nothing like getting caught with your pants down. This is why police departments want this stuff. Barney Fife's one bullet isn't good enough anymore.

Now having said that, what I do not care for is the mentality. That "I'm the only one qualified", that "you are a lowly peasant", that "everyone is guilty until proven otherwise" mentality. However you care to voice that way of thinking is fine, it's been done many times here, and will continue to be so. That is a form of racism. In this case it's not the color of your skin, but the badge you wear. Or perhaps it's more like the monarchy of England. Nobility or peasant.

However nearly all officers I have dealt with over the years don't act like this. And I try to get to know my local officers. Not to be their buddy, but so I know them and they know me. Is there a trend where this military mentality is waxing greater? Sure I think so, in certain areas. But it's generally only in a small percentage of officers.


So in conclusion what must be defended is the right of the citizen. Like all freedoms it must always constantly be defended. That's the one thing that is not said enough; Freedom is not free. If more of the "commoners" spent less time letting others earn their freedom, We the People wouldn't be seeing the trend of this erosion of our rights like we do.

[EDIT] Edit to Add: Oh yeah, if more of the citizens would act in a civil manner many officers would not have the "guilty until proven innocent mentality" either. All we need to do is get the schools to indoctrinate the proper civil discourse of "Art's Grammaw" into our society. But that is an ideal, not reality. Nor will it be realized. Which is why this society is doomed, unless this next generation straightens up. But I believe you can kiss that goodbye. The real answer to the erosion of our rights? That's an easy one, we don't deserve them anymore.

 

[mp510]

A CIVILIAN impersonating a SOLDIER is illegal

I don't se anybody impersonatting a soldier in that top picture in the OP. I see somebody wearing ACUs. There is already surplus ACU's on the market and very similar commercial knock-offs. In fact, last time the state police SWAT team was on the news, they seemed to be wearing ACU's. In fact, the APC clearly says police not US ARMY on the side of it.

 

[Cosmoline]

Uniforms and gear are not the problem. The problem is the "us vs. them", "sheep & wolves," "war on the streets" attitude. Police forces are increasingly made up of outsiders, even up here in the sticks. They increasingly live apart from the people they police. They are pushed to conduct wars against citizens, instead of serving the community.

I suspect my own experiences are typical. I don't hate our local APD cops, but I've had enough starchy run-ins with them to know they're wired a little too tight. I sure as heck wouldn't engage one in casual conversation. They want no part of it. They hang out amongst themselves and don't mingle with the "civilians" unless it's to strong arm a hooker or do a sting. This is typical of modern police forces, and it's not a good trend. Spenard has a local police branch, and I've had about six ftf encounters with them from minor traffic issues to giving eyewitness accounts to DV incidents. I go right past them every single day and see them sitting in their cruisers by the station, engines running (I don't know why they do this). They glare in my direction, but that's it. I have no idea what their names are, where they come from or if they're even Alaskans. If it came down to helping one in a bad spot, I suspect I'd high tail it in the other direction for fear of getting shot by the officer I was trying to help. And I sure as heck think twice before reporting any of the multitude of suspicious things I see walking or biking around the neighborhood. The chance of getting slammed myself for some perceived infraction is simply too high. Unless I *KNOW* a specific demonstrable crime is in progress or has taken place, I will not contact them. The trust just isn't there.

 

[Jeff White]

Grant 48 said;

Until law enforcement requires at least a BA or BS, it will never be professional. Texas requires only 12 hours of college credit to be TCLEOSE certified, so essentially we have high school grads as police officers. Careers with low standards do not attract quality people. You dont see Ivy League grads working at JiffyLube and Walmart, do you? Until qualification criteria changes, law enforcement will be stuck with a blue-collar culture and attitude.

When you want to pay the taxes to cover the salaries that would attract college graduates you might see that happen.

And you think the police have an elitist attitude? Sheesh.....Maybe when you get out of college and have to get your hands dirty in the real world you'll understand a little bit about life.

Jeff

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

funny

"And you think the police have an elitist attitude? Sheesh.....Maybe when you get out of college and have to get your hands dirty in the real world you'll understand a little bit about life."

his own elitist attitude escapes him. introspection is hard when you still have those campus super powers coursing though your veins, and ego.

 

[xd9fan]

I just want to hear any LEO justify the need for stuff like this. EBR's included.

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

as a Criminal Justice major, i encounter more potential officers who view it as "us vs 'The scum" and ofcouse any one in the system is guilty, or they wouldnt be in the system.

yea, im a criminal justice major too and the more I hear the stuff these people say in class the less I ever want to be a PO. I have a teacher who is a former PO, he refers to everyone who commits a crime as a dope infested a**hole. Then he says when people say something about their rights, its just some bulls**t they saw on a tv show. a definite us vs them mentality. yea everyone is definitely guilty if they are poor or in a bad neighborhood according to professors here at school, it almost makes it seem like a system of guilty until proven rich. I know people commit crimes, but i think you would get better results treating people like humans. During my internship the best police officer I had the priviledge of riding with referred to everyone he arrested as sir or mam. you would be surprised how easily people cooperate if you respect them as a citizen. I have also seen police officers who are looking for a fight and try to antagonize the people they come in contact with and talk down to them since they have the authority, unfortunately, in my experience I saw alot more of the second style.

 

[Jeff White]

I have a question for all you criminal justice majors. Why are you wasting your time in college on a degree that has absolutely no practical value?

No one is going to hire you to be a police officer because you have a criminal justice degree. The many departments nationwide that require college credit as a prerequisite will hire you with credit hours in any discipline. If you decide not work in law enforcement, your degree is useless when you apply for other positions. Nothing you are exposed to in college will be taught to the same standards you will get in the academy. A degree in criminal justice has about the same value as the so called degrees that many college athletes leave school with as they head for the pros. The difference is those athletes don't need the degree to earn a living. Study business or arts and sciences, but don't waste your time in criminal justice classes. The kind of schooling that will help you on the job as a police officer is not found in college. It's found in the professional development courses that are offered through various public and private training entities. IMHO Criminal Justice degree is about as useful as the proverbial degree in basket weaving.

Jeff

 

[SkiLune]

When the cops start wearing what looks to be the same uniform I wore at the end of my Army term (ACU's) I view it as blurring the line between military and police. Hell they have some toys I never saw when I was in (MP5's). The mentality is very different between the two, but it worries me that the police will start to view the general public the same way the Army view insurgents now

I agree. The militarization of the police doesn't bother me as much as that combined with the "no knock raids" in the middle of the night for non-violent situations. I realize cops can't go into situations outgunned, but come on already -- chasing non-violent minor drug offenses is not a reason to place innocents' in jeopardy, IMO, even if some evidence might be flushed.

We all heard about the recent case in Georgia where a 90 year old granny got gunned down in one of these assaults. (The cops plead to manslaughter charges.) And these are NOT isolated incidents. Cato Institute has a database of accidental shootings in paramilitary raids, and it ain't pretty at all:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/index.php#

 

[tmajors]

One of my favorite quotes from Battlestar Galactica:

There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people. - William Adama

 

[Powderman]

Well, here's a different tack, folks--why are YOU qualified to bash a profession that you haven't worked a day in yet?

Jeff made some very valid comments, and sage advice--but what you are NOT understanding, and you have NOT grasped yet is this: Police work is more of a calling than a profession. You have to grasp that--and want to do the job with your heart and soul--or it will eat you up.

I believe that some of you are guilty of selective hearing and attention in your classes. Yes, there are some bad professors out there, and I'm not saying that you don't have one--but are you REALLY listening to what is being said?

With all due respect, you are still wet behind the ears. Before you start making sage remarks about cops, get behind the wheel of a patrol car, and do some patrolling.

Better yet, if you have figured out already that you are not cut out for it, then change your major into something that you like better, or something that can benefit your quest for a profession.

Don't jump on a soapbox about something you know nothing about.

Meant as advice, and not as a flame.

I just want to hear any LEO justify the need for stuff like this. EBR's included.

When you roll on your first call with a guy hanging out of a window, with a clear field of fire for at least 100 yards in every direction with an SKS rifle, or you have an officer safety message about a gangbanger who CARRIES a stolen SKS, scoped, and states publicly that his target of choice is police officers from YOUR department, you'll understand better than I or anyone else could explain it to you.

And if you want to try to talk these type of people down after they have expressed their intent to KILL you--well, then, you're suicidal. And if you expect me or any other police officer to do the same, put down the crack pipe. (Again, meant as a comment--not a flame.)

 

[ZeSpectre]

Before I get started... Powderman, I have worked a beat

Having said that, I have absolutely no problem with the police having military grade equipment. As I have stated many times the job is SERIOUS and the most important thing to any cop is to go home, unharmed, at the end of the day if at all possible. It's no damn video game and there is no "reset" switch if things go wrong.

HOWEVER

I do have a real problem with departments that don't "civilianize" (for lack of a better term) the equipment that they do get.

Police officers should be in a civilian uniform that obviously indicates they are members of a police force (not some military ops unit). Vehicles and equipment used by the police need to be painted appropriately in department colors the same as their cruisers and such for the same reason.

I used to get really annoyed with fellow officers who wanted to "play soldier" and had a terriffic Sergeant who always clamped down on that behavior the instant he found out about it. We got LOTS of reminders about the goal of our job (protect and serve the law abiding citizens of our jurisdiction).

 

[IllHunter]

Powderman, I feel your pain,

But you quote the one in a thousand occurrrence in your chosen workplace and assume that happens alot everywhere. Enough to have each and every PD with a spiffy 113. Truth is most cops are never shot at or have to shoot and you never address the right of sane people to own what the ordinary infantryman carries to work.
Try to see a little from my side, I have no interaction with my small village PD as I'm never in trouble, only interaction with police is on the highway and is usually not a life threatening event, a non-violent attempt to extract cash from my coffer for some slight real or perceived. I usually can show up in court and have it dismissed, 2 out of 5 times the LEO didn't show. How good should my view be of this individual who picked me out of traffic and didn't show up to pusue it. I don't see in the local paper (Chicago Tribune) where in the normal course of business, cops are endangered. Recently more often I see (as in Tank Johnson) local swat teams forcing entry in non-violent arrests. He pled guilty to the MISDEMEMEANOR yesterday. If you don't like being grouped with the JBT crowd, try and keep our perspective in view.

 

[Speer]

..they should not be allowed to have things we can not get.

Agreed.

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

Why are you wasting your time in college on a degree that has absolutely no practical value?

well simple. I am just getting a college degree so I can get my commission as a 2nd lt in the army. It really doesnt matter what the degree is in. If it werent for that, I wouldnt be going to school at all. It is a major that is fairly easy and it interests me. It has had some practical value for me. I learned how to expunge some minor criminal convictions I had on my record. Just two weeks ago I got my speeding ticket thrown out of court from stuff I learned in one of my criminal law classes. Many people take criminal justice for their undergrad before going to law school, not for me though I could barely stand the 4 years(thankfully only 2 more months). I dont see how it can hurt to know the procedures and laws everyone has no choice to live by. I have used what Ive learned to stay out of trouble and clean up my record so I dont see how its useless. but yea, if youre one of those guys who gets a job after college, theres better majors to pick.

 

[CombatArmsUSAF]

Commit a crime, dont worry about a black and white with a decent officer, you get the SWAT Team rolling down in an APC, half of which used to be Special Ops guys, all armed M4s or MP5s.

Are you serious? Do you actually believe that?

..they should not be allowed to have things we can not get.

What use do you have for an APC? Do you ever deal with gunmen shooting at you from inside a house they have barricaded themselves in? This is like my three year old daughter being mad because the next door neighbor has a nicer sand box than she does.

Until law enforcement requires at least a BA or BS, it will never be professional. Texas requires only 12 hours of college credit to be TCLEOSE certified, so essentially we have high school grads as police officers. Careers with low standards do not attract quality people. You dont see Ivy League grads working at JiffyLube and Walmart, do you? Until qualification criteria changes, law enforcement will be stuck with a blue-collar culture and attitude.

Many PDs do require at least a BA. It's the low salary that keeps law enforcement a blue collar job. Maybe when they start to actually pay police officers what they deserve you'll see a better attitude.

 

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me that the mindset of a department comes from the top down, and that's the folks appointed by the local city council.

Folks act as they're trained. Young guys do what older guys tell them. They learn to think from what the older guys and bosses say.

And the local politicos are the ones with the responsibility about how the cop-shop works.

Art

 

[Powderman]

Careers with low standards do not attract quality people. You dont see Ivy League grads working at JiffyLube and Walmart, do you? Until qualification criteria changes, law enforcement will be stuck with a blue-collar culture and attitude.

Excuse me?

Now, THAT's a straight insult, fella.

Since it's SO easy to get into law enforcement, why don't YOU get into uniform? Since the job is SO easy to do, let's see you apply for a department, do a selection process that can take up to a year and a half, have your head probed by a psychiatrist, disclose your FULL financial history, go on a polygraph, appear in front of as many as three oral interviews, disclose your entire personal history, pass physical agility tests, and go through a MINIMUM of five months of training in most agencies BEFORE you're even allowed to do the job in a TRAINING status!

You know what? I was trying to keep this civil, but I am SICK and TIRED of the whiners here. I am willing to bet money that YOU could not even get on a police department.

You cry, whine and moan about ALL cops. The people who are LEO's on this board try to talk about it gently with you, and to have a civil discussion. What happens? Bash, bash, bash! About a profession that you know NOTHING about!

You think on about how bad we are the next time you see some poor sap standing in the rain for a few hours, directing traffic around the latest example of why it's REALLY a bad idea to drink and drive.

When your daughter doesn't show up at home, think about it the next time you call a police department.

And when you hear something go BUMP in the night, you think about it REAL hard when you pick up that phone and dial 911, knowing that as soon as your "possible prowler, inside the residence" call goes out that at least 3 or 4 of the people you HATE so much are blowing engines to get to you--and that EACH one of them, will, WITHOUT HESITATION, LAY THEIR LIVES ON YOUR DOORSTEP TO MAKE SURE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ARE SAFE.

YES, I'M YELLING. SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS, ACTUALLY!

Yeah, you BET I'm steamed. Remember us, your neighborhood JBT's, as we pry your kids and family members from twisted and mangled cars--and sometimes sit in our cars by ourselves with TEARS flowing, thinking of the life so cruelly taken.

You remember us when we talk to your daughters--and sometimes SONS--who went to get-togethers with people they THOUGHT were friends--who end up being groped, fondled, OR WORSE--as they tell our detectives what happened; and as we go out to find the scum responsible.

You remember us AWFUL, Jack-Booted Thugs with "high school educations", us cretins and mental defectives, when someone goes nuts in a mall--like in Utah--when that off duty cop--who was OFF THE CLOCK with his FAMILY--left his family, grabbed a handful of cojones, drew his off duty piece and went to WORK! He saved lives that day--HOW MANY HAVE YOU SAVED?

Put THIS in your pipe and smoke it, fella---

ALL of you wonder why we have an "us vs. them" attitude, that was mentioned earlier in this VERY post?

THIS KIND OF NONSENSICAL DRIVEL IS EXACTLY WHY!

Why would I want to be kind to you and considerate to you and yours, or give a RIP about your well being when you insult me--and my profession--like this?!

All of you internet commandoes and wannabes make me physically ill. You talk about "SHTF" and "From my cold dead hands" and whine about how bad society is.

SO PUT ON A BADGE--IF YOU CAN; IF YOU HAVE WHAT IT TAKES, AND YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO DO IT AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Hmph. Pardon me while I vomit. I'm done with this thread and with most of you. Have a miserable life.

 

[KINGMAX]

I was assinged to the 4th AIT Brigade at Fort Gorden Georgia, (spring 1971). The 4 th AIT Trained MP's for the U.S Army and the USMC. The Marines got paid twice each month, poker always on the 15th of the month.
Applewhite won 850.00 and an Oldsmobile, went AWOL, never to be seen again.