Milled Polish Underfolder or Arsenal SGL-21

[RuAk]

Is a Milled polish underfolder non matching numbers worth it for 800 bucks?

The receiver is made from Landcaster 4140 cold steel rockwell 88 or something like that along with a mossberg made barrel or would getting a Arsenal SGL-21 be a better choice.

I want the rifle for durability and i want to beat the crap out of them without having the rifle fall apart years from now.

 

[nalioth]

Of your choices, the Arsenal will be the better choice. The "Polish underfolder" is nothing more than an American Mixmaster, with substandard (non-military) parts.


Outside of your choices, buying a standard Saiga and converting it to your requirements would be the most cost-efficient route to a Kalashnikov.

 

[briansmithwins]

Of your choices, the Arsenal will be the better choice. The "Polish underfolder" is nothing more than an American Mixmaster, with substandard (non-military) parts.

What he said.

The Arsenal will be lighter and has a hardchromed bore too.

BSW

 

[RuAk]

So lancaster doesn't use substandard parts on their AK's?

I take it the American made AKs don't compare to the one's of foreign countries? But why? Bad quality made parts here in the U.S? Not military spec?

I know the Saiga is made at the Russian factory but what is exactly Russian on the rifle besides the receiver? Does the Arsenal sgl21 have a hammer forged barrel? Chrome lined?

 

[nathan]

Go the SGL route.

 

[nalioth]

So lancaster doesn't use substandard parts on their AK's?

Where did you get that idea? We (America) don't replace perfectly fine milspec parts with shoddy American replacements because we want to - we do it because of 922r.

I take it the American made AKs don't compare to the one's of foreign countries? But why? Bad quality made parts here in the U.S? Not military spec?

No American part has to meet military requirements. For Pete's sake, Century uses barrels made by a black powder rifle manufacturer.

I know the Saiga is made at the Russian factory but what is exactly Russian on the rifle besides the receiver? Does the Arsenal sgl21 have a hammer forged barrel? Chrome lined?

Everything on a factory Saiga is Russian. The Saiga rifles in military calibers (RAAC or Ar$¢nal) have actual military chrome-lined hammer-forged barrels.

 

[Crawfish141]

I bought an SGL-21 and am quite happy. The chromed hammer forged barrel is a plus. It has the nicest sights I've ever seen on an AK. The muzzle brake is a direct copy of an AK-103 brake. Thus it's more effective than th Chinese knock-offs. Having shot the gun with and without the brake, I can say that it has a substantial positive effect (almost night an day). It utilizes updates that came forth on the AK-74 bolt and bolt carrier, so it should in theory be more reliable than an AK-47 copy. It is so far had no failures of any kind (I've only shot 350 rounds though, I haven't had it for long). I didn't formally test accuracy, however hitting a 14" plate at 200yds off-hand was easy.

All the parts excluding the furniture, trigger group, magazine and muzzle brake are Russian manufacture (The rest is high quality U.S. and Bulgarian parts.). This is a major plus; this is the Russians rifle, they have a ton of experience with the design. It's their pride and joy. They've put more effort into making it a good rifle than all other AK users combine. The end result is one of the best AK's ever built.

My only two gripes are that the finish is a thin bake on paint and the stock screws require a torx screwdriver. I plan on refinishing it with park followed by a bake on paint finish, if/when the original finish gets too bad. The stock screws were switched out with only one quick trip to the hardware store (Cost me $0.72, for three!).

Have you shot an under-folder AK yet? I wouldn't buy one without having shot one before, under folding stocks are not very comfortable. The polymer stock on the SGL is very comfortable, though it may be a little short for some (I'm 6' and find it fine, though another inch couldn't hurt).

In short the SGL is the nicest AK I've handled.

 

[Girodin]

Post #2 pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

[RuAk]

I've read nothing but good for the sgl, the only thing that seems would bother me is the finish i guess. I mean is it really that bad and easily scratched? I clean my barrels with hoppes #9 and lube and clean other parts with clp.

I also heard after firing several mags on the sgl, the plastic handle can get hot and get close to melting? Has anyone heard or expeirenced this?

Since the polish UF is getting harder to find nowadays, what you think on getting that first then the sgl because i feel there will still be sgl's in the near future.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Get the SGL-21, for all the reasons already stated. Much higher quality.

The "Polish underfolder" as it's being called is, as already noted, a mixture of parts, not a single mil-spec rifle made or recreated. It isn't likely to have much if any collector's value either, while the SGL-21 probably will have some. If you look at world politics I would say the SGL-21 is more likely to dry up in the near future than the Century-assembled rifles.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Oh and by the way:

made from Landcaster 4140 cold steel rockwell 88 or something like that along with a mossberg made barrel

Not sure where you got this string of words, although my guess is from classicarms.us. The receiver may be 4140 steel, which is fine, but also very common. Lancaster/Landcaster wouldn't be a steelmaker or otherwise denote anything regarding the steel itself (there is an AK assembler named Lancaster, perhaps that's where the word comes in). "Rockwell 88" sounds like a hardness, but 88 is beyond normal use of the Rockwell C scale, and is far beyond any hardness you would get a steel to reach. The receiver is probably heat treated to somewhere between 30 and 45 Rockwell C, and the barrel is likely between 28 and 33; those numbers would be the same with any middling to high quality brand, FWIW. And Mossberg is an OK barrel maker, if they were even involved, but not anything special.

 

[RuAk]

Oh and by the way:



Not sure where you got this string of words, although my guess is from classicarms.us. The receiver may be 4140 steel, which is fine, but also very common. Lancaster/Landcaster wouldn't be a steelmaker or otherwise denote anything regarding the steel itself (there is an AK assembler named Lancaster, perhaps that's where the word comes in). "Rockwell 88" sounds like a hardness, but 88 is beyond normal use of the Rockwell C scale, and is far beyond any hardness you would get a steel to reach. The receiver is probably heat treated to somewhere between 30 and 45 Rockwell C, and the barrel is likely between 28 and 33; those numbers would be the same with any middling to high quality brand, FWIW. And Mossberg is an OK barrel maker, if they were even involved, but not anything special.

Thanks. I just needed to do my research before i spent that much money on another rifle. Those words are from Lancaster Arms.

I don't want the rifle just for collectors or to safe queen it, I want to shoot the crap outta it and have it reliable and accurate enough for an ak still after few thousand rounds.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I don't want the rifle just for collectors or to safe queen it, I want to shoot the crap outta it and have it reliable and accurate enough for an ak still after few thousand rounds.

So, uh, get the SGL-21, it will do all that without a problem. =)

Second choice would be convert your own Saiga rifle back to original configuration.

 

[briansmithwins]

The finish on the Saiga's and Arsenal rifles isn't an epoxy super-paint but it's reasonably durable. Plus, it already parkerized under the paint so refinishing is pretty easy. Tear down, strip, and paint. BSW

 

[Girodin]

So, uh, get the SGL-21, it will do all that without a problem. =)

Second choice would be convert your own Saiga rifle back to original configuration.

A saiga you convert yourself will do it and at less expense which makes it the first choice in my book.

 

[zhyla]

The Saiga is sooo the way to go these days. They're cheaper than the decent alternatives, even if you figure in the new furniture you need post-conversion. Plus the Russians seem to know how to make a decent AK .

I have an old Norinco sporter and it's fantastic, but if I had to buy right now I'd get a Saiga or two. Hell, I wouldn't mind getting one right now.

 

[Girodin]

It should be noted that the Arsenal SLG is just a dressed up saiga. If you buy your own you can dress it the way you like and often for less.

 

[philpost]

Sure, but....ever tried to make a dress? Same principle. If you want pro-level work, it costs. If you can do the work yourself, fine. But an amateur job on a Saiga does not equal an Arsenal.

 

[Z-Michigan]

As philpost said, and from someone who owns both an SGL and a plain Saiga sporter - yes you can convert it yourself, but unless you're a machinist or gunsmith, the final result probably won't be as nice as the SGL. It may cost less though. Decide what your priorities are

 

[Girodin]

But an amateur job on a Saiga does not equal an Arsenal.

I suppose that depends on who does the conversion. I have seen more than one amateur job that I would deem superior to an Arsenal. If one takes their time in doing the work making a gun that looks as nice is within the skill set of most able bodied people. Further it is an AK and not a dress. It is a tool and not a fashion accessory. In terms of function making one that fits the needs of the user as well or better than the arsenal is not difficult. If you want it to be pretty that isn't that hard either just take your time and prep it well when you refinish it at the end. In fact you can get a finish that is head and shoulders above what the Arsenal gun has on it. If you want a fancy name, then just like a dress you need to buy it.

Many home done amateur jobs turn out very well because the owner of the gun has a significant interest in things being done right.

yes you can convert it yourself, but unless you're a machinist or gunsmith, the final result probably won't be as nice as the SGL. It may cost less though.

What machining do you think that you really need to do to get it to look as nice as a SLG?

Threading the barrel perhaps? That is a DIY job if one is willing to actual spend a little time reading and give it a go. Some may find paying a gunsmith to do it is more economical than renting the tools.

 

[zhyla]

I've only glanced at the instructions for a Saiga conversion but I wasn't too intimidated. Drill out a bunch of rivets, file a few things, etc. If you do your homework it looks like an afternoon project.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I have a Saiga conversion in progress. I read all the instructions and guidance I could get several times, and I had a dremel and a drill to start with. I found it much more difficult than other projects I've worked on, including building a couple AR lowers and some other miscellany hobby gunsmithing. I would say I have about 3 hours into it (time actually working on it, excluding more hours studying directions) and am only about halfway through. While it certainly seems do-able, I do not think it is a 1-hour or less job as I've often read about, except for people who've done five of them or are professional gunsmiths, machinists or mechanics.

 

[philpost]

I suppose that depends on who does the conversion. I have seen more than one amateur job that I would deem superior to an Arsenal. If one takes their time in doing the work making a gun that looks as nice is within the skill set of most able bodied people. Further it is an AK and not a dress. It is a tool and not a fashion accessory. In terms of function making one that fits the needs of the user as well or better than the arsenal is not difficult. If you want it to be pretty that isn't that hard either just take your time and prep it well when you refinish it at the end. In fact you can get a finish that is head and shoulders above what the Arsenal gun has on it. If you want a fancy name, then just like a dress you need to buy it.

Many home done amateur jobs turn out very well because the owner of the gun has a significant interest in things being done right.



What machining do you think that you really need to do to get it to look as nice as a SLG?

Threading the barrel perhaps? That is a DIY job if one is willing to actual spend a little time reading and give it a go. Some may find paying a gunsmith to do it is more economical than renting the tools.

If you don't think there is a ton of technical expertise required to make a dress that looks nice, you don't really know too much about the process - trust me, my wife is a Technical Designer in the fashion industry. My point is unchanged - an amateur job on a Saiga is not the equivilent of an Arsenal. If you have the technical ability, go ahead. But I've seen videos on Youtube where people have found it to be a little more difficult than they thought. Proceed at your own risk.

 

[Girodin]

If you don't think there is a ton of technical expertise required to make a dress that looks nice, you don't really know too much about the process - trust me, my wife is a Technical Designer in the fashion industry.

No I do not think there is a ton of technical expertise required to make a saiga look as good as an SLG, that was the point. I never commented one way or another on what it takes to make a dress. My question was what machining do you really need to do? Instead of talking about what it actual takes to build a rifle like an SLG you go on about dresses.

My point is unchanged - an amateur job on a Saiga is not the equivilent of an Arsenal

And my point is unchanged it depends largely on who does it. Some may be inferior, some the equivalent and some superior. A blanket statement like yours is bound to be wrong. Go over to the saiga boards and search around I've seen a number of "amateur jobs" that I'd rather have than an Arsenal.

What is it that you think is so special about an Arsenal SLG? What do they offer that is just beyond the capabilities of an amateur job?

I think there are a few minor things they do that most could not such as weld up the holes in the receiver. That said aesthetically a 10 cent nylon hole plug looks just like a rivet and takes a fairly close inspection to see that it isn't.

Furthermore, given the OP's criteria for choosing a weapon:

I want the rifle for durability and i want to beat the crap out of them without having the rifle fall apart years from now.

What does the SLG offer that a saiga with a basic conversion job wont in meeting the above? The SLG has a brake (which doesn't really add to reliability or durability but is nice to have for some applications), but adding one to a saiga still leaves you money ahead. If one wants to beat the crap out of it why not get something cheaper that functionally is the equivalent?

Back when they had the SLGs on sale for sub $600 IIRC they were a heck of deal and made much more sense than converting a saiga. At their higher price I no longer believe that to be the case.

I do not think it is a 1-hour or less job as I've often read about, except for people who've done five of them

I'd agree with that. The first one I did took around three or four hours (i didn't have a dremel though so hand filing things took a good chunk of that time). I went very slowly, consulted my instructions often and tried to really think everything through to make sure I understood it. The next one (with the a dremel on hand) took more like 45 minutes of work.

 

[nalioth]

What is it that you think is so special about an Arsenal SLG?

Why it's the tasty that Ar$¢nal serves in massive proportions.

I think there are a few minor things they do that most could not such as weld up the holes in the receiver.

This is a crutch you're offering, G.

Everybody has a body shop or welding shop somewhere around. All the holes can be welded there (probably for free) for the asking.