22/22mag
Member
I have read that the accuracy of both Mini-14 and AKs .223 are 3-5 moa at 100yds other then that which would be the better rifle ?Any other semi-auto .223 ?
Mini-14 or AK .223?
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KelTec SU16.
More accurate and less expensive than the mini 14. Don't know about the Saiga.
Check out these links.
Accuracy
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=105;action=display;num=1143829829
Torture Test
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=105;action=display;num=1107839748
More accurate and less expensive than the mini 14. Don't know about the Saiga.
Check out these links.
Accuracy
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=105;action=display;num=1143829829
Torture Test
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=105;action=display;num=1107839748
Fu-man Shoe
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- 199
I say pick what you want. When essential performance is about the same,
go for stlye!
But then, I'm a traditionalist.
go for stlye!
But then, I'm a traditionalist.
orangeninja
Member
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- Dec 4, 2003
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- 3,117
I'd love to just try out the SU16 carbine.
Mini-14's may be a lot of things, but unreliable isn't one of them.
My concern with the .223 AK would be availability of parts. Those things come and go a lot, it seems, with various importers and various law changes. A Mini you can always fix, on the off chance it needs it.
Mini's have risen above a reasonable price, though.
Kel-tec SU-16 would interest me the most, if I didn't already have a few guns in that genre that don't get shot much. The newest version is nice; they changed the barrel and sights and tweaked the overall package a bit.
None of these guns are accurate. Mini-14 accuracy is fine as long as the barrel is cold; it just heats up fast.
If you want accuracy in a .223 semiauto, get a heavy barrel AR or a high-end gun built on an AR or Mini-14, or a Volquartsen. None of these is cheap.
If you want real accuracy without breaking the bank, buy a bolt action.
My concern with the .223 AK would be availability of parts. Those things come and go a lot, it seems, with various importers and various law changes. A Mini you can always fix, on the off chance it needs it.
Mini's have risen above a reasonable price, though.
Kel-tec SU-16 would interest me the most, if I didn't already have a few guns in that genre that don't get shot much. The newest version is nice; they changed the barrel and sights and tweaked the overall package a bit.
None of these guns are accurate. Mini-14 accuracy is fine as long as the barrel is cold; it just heats up fast.
If you want accuracy in a .223 semiauto, get a heavy barrel AR or a high-end gun built on an AR or Mini-14, or a Volquartsen. None of these is cheap.
If you want real accuracy without breaking the bank, buy a bolt action.
I have a Mini-14 and am far from thrilled with it. The recommendations for the Saiga and Su-16 are both really good ideas. They're far more accurate, and the Saiga, being an AK pattern, will be highly reliable and durable. I like the SU-16 a lot, but it hasn't been out long enough to know about long term durability. It would probably be my favorite of the two.
If you get an AK, part of the accuracy problem is the stiff, gritty triggers. Red Star Arms makes an adjustable trigger that if you tune it right, is as close to match grade as you're likely to find. It was the single best improvement I've done to AK's.
If you get an AK, part of the accuracy problem is the stiff, gritty triggers. Red Star Arms makes an adjustable trigger that if you tune it right, is as close to match grade as you're likely to find. It was the single best improvement I've done to AK's.
Foxtrot427
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- Jan 24, 2006
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- 512
AK
Bob F.
Member
SwampWolf
Member
I have had a Mini-14 for "mini" years and I'm thrilled with it.
rangerruck
Member
i'd go with the saiga first, they are surprisingly accurate, then the kel tec su16, though they are more money. If you get a mini 14 , make darn sure that it is made in 2005 or later.
Fire4Effect
Member
I've been thoroughly impressed with my Saiga AK in .308win.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
At current Mini-14 prices, I would be hard pressed to say that the Mini-14 is a good value. Almost anything the Mini-14 can do, some other rifle can do better and often for less money.
Hey, thanks Bob.
.223 Saigas start at $290. So almost half of what I see Minis going for now. The biggest disadvantage of the unconverted Saiga is that you're limited to 10 round magazines, but from what I see, so is the Mini. For the same amount of money as a Mini, you can convert a Saiga to a very nice AK configuration and use higher cap magazines. We use K-Var's Bulgarian poly waffle 30 rounders in our conversions.
I like the Keltec also. Good gun for the money.
.223 Saigas start at $290. So almost half of what I see Minis going for now. The biggest disadvantage of the unconverted Saiga is that you're limited to 10 round magazines, but from what I see, so is the Mini. For the same amount of money as a Mini, you can convert a Saiga to a very nice AK configuration and use higher cap magazines. We use K-Var's Bulgarian poly waffle 30 rounders in our conversions.
I like the Keltec also. Good gun for the money.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Hey, do you have a picture of one of the IZ-114s converted to AK-style with the 30rd waffle mag? I'm kind of curious to see that.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Mine's not (188-series stainless Ranch Rifle). 5.5" at 100 yards, sandbagged, from a cold barrel...
lawson
Member
the A-team used Mini-14s, and i don't remember them ever successfully hitting anything
fun guns, but i'd rather have a Saiga, Keltec, or some kind of AR.
fun guns, but i'd rather have a Saiga, Keltec, or some kind of AR.
david_the_greek
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- Nov 2, 2005
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- 533
+1 lawson
HankB
Member
With iron sights, my 180-series Mini-14 is a 3 MOA rifle. (So's my CMP M1 with milsurp ball ammo.) Gray market 20 round Ruger factory mags are avaliable if a bit pricey at $35 - $45, but aftermarket 30 rounders - which function well in my particular rifle - are cheap and available.
As far as .223 AK-pattern rifles are concerned, they ought to be more reliable, but some of the early ones weren't, for whatever reason. (Early .223 mags, maybe?) As you see from previous posts, current Saigas seem to work well.
Mini-14 barrels heat up fast, but the triggers are generally better than those on AKs, and the rifles themselves just seem "handier."
Quality AR15 clones will likely be more accurate than either, and offer much more potential for custom touches. If you pay the $$, you can have an AR which will be a genuine 1/2 MOA rifle . . . reputedly, some can be made to do even better.
As far as .223 AK-pattern rifles are concerned, they ought to be more reliable, but some of the early ones weren't, for whatever reason. (Early .223 mags, maybe?) As you see from previous posts, current Saigas seem to work well.
Mini-14 barrels heat up fast, but the triggers are generally better than those on AKs, and the rifles themselves just seem "handier."
Quality AR15 clones will likely be more accurate than either, and offer much more potential for custom touches. If you pay the $$, you can have an AR which will be a genuine 1/2 MOA rifle . . . reputedly, some can be made to do even better.
Grump
Member
I beg to differ. If you're accuracy testing on sandbags with any decent technique, trigger pull becomes a factor only somewhere about 12 pounds or more.
I've been target shooting for years, and about the only "trigger" thing that can affect your accuracy is an erratic pull combined with bad technique. On the heavy pulls, the shooter will flinch early and still be jumpy when it breaks, violating the hold still rule and NOT getting the benefit of short lock time and barrel time. On the light pulls, unwisely mashing up too much slack before you're on target (again, bad technique) will result in an AD somewhere off the target but still safely downrange.
We just LIKE crisp and light triggers. They are not mandatory for accurate shooting, as long as they're under 10 pounds (okay, 8 for some). Gritty on the takeup doesn't matter, IME.
On-topic, I've only had experince with one early stainless Mini, and it was 2 MOA with surplus, and 1-1.25 MOA with bulk hunting bullet reloads. This was scoped and box-stock, not even bedded.
The only .223 AK I've worked with (a LOT) eats factory ammo all day long but slips its extractor off the rims of just about every reload I've tried. Even fiddled with the extractor spring and it's still doing it. It's a reliable 2 MOA gun with USGI ammo or my reloads, and 3-4 MOA with Wolf.
Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
Member
I would get a used Mini14.
- You don't have to worry about which combloc armory made your
rifle in which country, and what to look out for, or who has the specific
type, you want from the place that "so and so" feels is the better one,
because it ends with "-garian"
- Parts is parts. Especially when these Mini14 parts are still made... Here.
- No funky scope mounts to play in a Mini14 with should you want a reddot or
magnification
- ghost rings on a Mini14 are great should you not want an addon!
- You don't have to worry about which combloc armory made your
rifle in which country, and what to look out for, or who has the specific
type, you want from the place that "so and so" feels is the better one,
because it ends with "-garian"
- Parts is parts. Especially when these Mini14 parts are still made... Here.
- No funky scope mounts to play in a Mini14 with should you want a reddot or
magnification
- ghost rings on a Mini14 are great should you not want an addon!
Addendum: get a Ranch Rifle if you can. It has built-in scope mounts. No hassle.
And I'd get a stainless/xytel one, but that's my opinion. I like wood and I like blued steel on most of my guns, but I think the utility of a stainless/synthetic knockaround carbine is a lot higher than one that is more easily rusted and can't be dropped in the water without consequences.
Of course, the Hogue overmolded stock is really nice, so I wouldn't hesitate to get a used wood one and add the stock later.
Mini's are pretty easy to clean; very accessible. If you want to drop a gun in the mud, it's the gun to have.
One of the funniest quips I've read in a while! Funny 'cause it's true.
And I'd get a stainless/xytel one, but that's my opinion. I like wood and I like blued steel on most of my guns, but I think the utility of a stainless/synthetic knockaround carbine is a lot higher than one that is more easily rusted and can't be dropped in the water without consequences.
Of course, the Hogue overmolded stock is really nice, so I wouldn't hesitate to get a used wood one and add the stock later.
Mini's are pretty easy to clean; very accessible. If you want to drop a gun in the mud, it's the gun to have.
One of the funniest quips I've read in a while! Funny 'cause it's true.
If you get a mini, good luck finding decent mags. I like the way the feel and shoot but, they aren't terribly accurate and I don't like the mags fit in. They can fit in a little canted forward sometimes. I never could find decent mags at stores or gun shows. I've had 3 and sold 3. I found myself holding one yesterday at a gun store and then said, "what am I doing". I put it down and walked away. I like what I've heard and seen from the kel-tecs although they aren't battle proven but, are probably good for plinking and home defense and the like. I have a couple of ak's and really like them. My favorite is my Ar-15. Ar's are pretty affordable in a basic a1 or a2 style. If you can swing it get one. Plenty of parts and mags.
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