Mini-14 Vs. Kel-tec SU16CA

[dasmi]

I'm wanting a semi-auto in .223, and I'm california. That pretty much means an mini-14, or a Kel-tec SU16CA.
Thoughts on both guns? Anyone have both? How do they compare?
Whichever one I buy will be used for HD and blasting .223 caliber holes in various inanimate objects.

 

[Number 6]

I currently have an SU-16A, am seriously considering buying a Mini-14, and have fired both the SU-16 and the Mini-14. Both are nice weapons. The SU-16 has many things going for it. Plentiful and reliable magazines, its marginally cheaper than the newer Mini-14s, arguable more accurate out of the box, lighter, and can easily mount optics on it. The biggest complaint that I have on my SU-16 is how much recoil it has. For a .223/5.56 carbine, it kicks a lot, which makes sense for such a light rifle. Others complain how the SU-16 feels cheap. The Mini-14 has some things going for it, it feels better made, less felt recoil, more aftermarket add-ons, and can be easily made to be as accurate if not more accurate than the SU-16. The major problems with the Mini-14 are finding reliable magazines, accuracy problems associated with the thin barrel, and durability problems associated with hard use of the rifle. I personally think both the SU-16 and the Mini-14 will both suffer from durability issues from hard use. I have never heard of any SU-16s breaking down from hard use, but there are fewer out there, and have most have not had as many rounds put through them as many of the Mini-14s. All of that being said, both are fine rifles, and a lot of it comes down to personal preference on which one you will eventually buy, I would try to fire both, and it that is not an option I would at least handle both to see which one fits you better.

 

[dasmi]

I should probably note that I'll be buying used.

 

[Number 6]

Well buying a used Mini is by far the cheaper route to take. Finding a used SU-16CA I can imagine would be very difficult, finding a used SU-16A would probably be easier since a lot of the California SU-16A owners are selling them to fund their SU-16CA.

 

[KriegHund]

I have a mini-14. Its an excellent gun aside from 2 things-

Thin barrel
Bad sights (personal opinion)

Ill add more. Its reliable as all heck, and very durable. Not very accurate, but accurate enough.

 

[browningguy]

From my limited experience, I own a SU-16A and have shot two Mini-14's, the SU is the right choice. It's exactly the right weight for a .223, essentially no recoil compared to any hunting cartridge, mine is considerably more accurate than the two mini's I shot, uses standard AR mags, you can carry two mags on the gun. The Mini is much more robustly built, however unless you're planning on knocking your shooting partners in the head with it I don't see that as a big issue. Mine has been through about 800 rounds or so and I've had zero issues. Not a single FTF or FTE, so reliliability has been good so far. The only downside is that the bipod is just about useless, on mine the POI changes so radically that you're not even on the paper at 100 yards. And it's flimsy and fiddly to mess with. I tried using it once and haven't unfolded it again.

As previously mentioned, good luck finding a used one though. The C and CA models have much better sights in my opinion than the A model I have, you just don't see them up for resale.

I should mention that my regular hunting cartridges are 7x57, 308, 30-06, 338 Win., 458 Win., and lately I've been shooting my .50 Beowulf AR quite a lot. Maybe I'm immune to the .223 level recoil.

 

[Number 6]

Its reliable as all heck, and very durable.

Most of the complaints I have heard about the durability of the Mini-14 come from anecdotal reports from people who have either trained with the few militaries that use the Mini-14, or have seen them go down during a carbine training class. It's one thing to put 1000 rounds through a rifle spread out over several months of shooting, it’s quite another to put 1000 rounds through a rifle in one weekend of training. I am personally skeptical of the lack of durability claims about the Mini-14, but nevertheless there are many people who make such claims so I count them as something to consider.

 

[dasmi]

Given how little time free time I have, I don't anticipate putting more than a few hundred rounds through either gun a month.

 

[KriegHund]

Most of the complaints I have heard about the durability of the Mini-14 come from anecdotal reports from people who have either trained with the few militaries that use the Mini-14, or have seen them go down during a carbine training class. It's one thing to put 1000 rounds through a rifle spread out over several months of shooting, it’s quite another to put 1000 rounds through a rifle in one weekend of training. I am personally skeptical of the lack of durability claims about the Mini-14, but nevertheless there are many people who make such claims so I count them as something to consider.

Yeah, but they say the same thing about M-16's, no?

I dont believe it about M-16's.

I did say that somed day ill buy a 500 rnd tin from cheaperthandirt and put all the rounds through it in a few hours. Im still working on doing that, but when i do we shall see.

 

[dasmi]

Another question: Does the SU16CA, the California version, accept M16 mags?

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Most of the complaints I have heard about the durability of the Mini-14 come from anecdotal reports from people who have either trained with the few militaries that use the Mini-14, or have seen them go down during a carbine training class. It's one thing to put 1000 rounds through a rifle spread out over several months of shooting, it’s quite another to put 1000 rounds through a rifle in one weekend of training. I am personally skeptical of the lack of durability claims about the Mini-14, but nevertheless there are many people who make such claims so I count them as something to consider.

According to a report passed along in one of his "Quips" by John Farnam, Mini-14s will hold up well to extended range sessions, if you grease them, rather than use oil. When they get hot oil is too prone to evaporate, leaving you with a dry gun. Grease stands up better on a hot gun. I lubricate my Mini-14 like a Garand using either Shooter's Choice grease or Lubriplate. It runs like a top, even when hot.

 

[Number 6]

Another question: Does the SU16CA, the California version, accept M16 mags?

Yes, all versions of the SU-16 will accept AR15/M16 mags. A caveat is that apparently Promag 10 rounders are not supposed to be used in SU-16s for some odd reason.

According to a report passed along in one of his "Quips" by John Farnam, Mini-14s will hold up well to extended range sessions, if you grease them, rather than use oil.

Thanks for the info Dave, I thought that the Mini should hold up to extended range sessions, but I have not heard anyone give any accounts of their Mini holding up.

 

[stoky]

IMHO the old roller bolt (180xxx series) Mini 14s were better than the later ones.

 

[mustanger98]

My Mini-14 runs just fine and does what I want it to do. I'd recommend that series any time. The later 1:9 twist barrels, which mine is, will stabilize 68gr bullets and be quite accurate.

 

[50 Freak]

I'd go with the SU. Fired one over the weekend and liked it. Very light, so recoil was more than my AR. But because it has a threaded barrel, you can put on a muzzle brake or FH easily.

 

[stoky]

mustanger98,
The 180 series Minis were 1 in 10". They have always shot better with a heavier bullet than the old 55gr. standard.
I'm glad to hear that your happy with your newer one. I think they are great little carbines.

The SU seems like it could be really handy, but the one I handled felt somewhat insubstantial. I have read that the built in bipod is too flimsy to provide a solid rest.

 

[mustanger98]

stoky:

mustanger98,
The 180 series Minis were 1 in 9. They have always shot better with a heavier bullet than the old 55gr. standard.
I'm glad to hear that your happy with your newer one. I think they are great little carbines.

The way I understand it, Ruger started the Minis with the faster twist for a while, then got away from it. Then about 1999 or 2000, they went back to the 1:9 twist.

 

[railroader]

I have the su16a model. I like it alot. Here some things you should know. First off you will be very unlikely to find a used CA model floating around for a decent price. People on the different forums complain of not being able to find new ones. But you can get the A models new cheap and upgrade the sights if you can live without the threaded barrel on the CA model. On my A model the windage is adjusted in the front sight which I didn't like so I purchased a windage adjustable rear peep sight from keltec. They are made out of metal and were like $20 shipped. Or you can change out front and rear for about $45. Another is if you use a fullsize scope on keltecs you can't take the rifle apart without removing the scope each time. If the scope hangs out past the rail mount, the gas tube assembly that has to tilt up to come out the rear of the receiver and will not come out because the scope is in the way. Your best bet is a red dot or a compact scope that can stay put. Mine rifle right now has a compact 4X28 simmons scope on it and it works well. If you decide you want an A version you can get them at http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/15232. $393 plus $25 shipping to your FFL. Mark

 

[1911_Mitch]

I have both and have shot them a bit (I usually opt for the M1A).
The ergonomics of the AR series is the best in my opinion, but I got rid of mine after the ban and now regret it.

The magazine release ergonomics of the SU are similar to the AR series.
The SU has a cross bolt trigger safety, the mini has a Garande type safety.
The SU does not have a bolt lock (unless I missed something), but does lock back on an empty mag, the mini does both.
The SU is a closed system (like the AR locking lugs) and the mini is an open system like the Garande/M14. In my experience, the open systems are less prone to malfuntion.

But.....

I actually prefer the added features of the SU-16CA:
Folds in half for storage = very convienent and discrete in case
Very light and handy carbine
Hold 2 - 10 rnd mags in the stock
Easy to mount optics on the rail
Ergonomics
Easy lockup of mags (as opposed to rocking them in)
I added the shortened foreend and added a light/laser
Uses AR 15 mags (have plenty of preban 20 + 30s)

But, I have some reservation about plastic guns.
The SU is a great plinker, fun gun, CA legal assault rifle, HD, and if necessary a lightweight SHTF rifle, but is by no means a battle rifle.

The mini-14 shoots great, is very reliable (by design), but as previously mentioned can be finiky about mags and suffers from a thin barrel that gets hot fast and groups open up. It feels a bit more solid to me. Its a bit tougher to add stable optics to the mini but can be done. There are several places that can add a new gas block and better barrel to increase accuracy.

I like them both, but would likely grab the SU because of the previously mentioned features.

Take a looksee at what I put together. I got the 30rnder before the ban (conveniently it fits both the mini-14, the AR-15 series, and the SU-16).

 

[Number 6]

The SU does not have a bolt lock (unless I missed something), but does lock back on an empty mag.

Actually it does. There is a button right behind the magazine well that will allow you to lock the bolt open. I had mine about two months before I found out about that.

 

[Justang]

No way the SU-16 kicks too much. IMO.

I have the SU-16, I like the action better, and I wanted a black gun. The only probelm I've had with mine is a failure to extract problem.

I've also shot my dad's Mini14. Good gun. But I like my SU-16 more.

 

[1911_Mitch]

Regarding the SU-16 bolt lock:

There is a button right behind the magazine well that will allow you to lock the bolt open. I had mine about two months before I found out about that.

I stand corrected (not the first time my wife reminds me).

The SU-16 does have a bolt lock. It is located immediately behind the magazine well and forward of the trigger guard. It is a small metal "button" or lever that you push a small distance (~1/4 inch) up toward the barrel and adjacent to the mag well.

The ergonomics are not as nice as the AR series, but the functions are there.

 

[sigstroker]

Yeah, but they say the same thing about M-16's, no?

I dont believe it about M-16's.

I did say that somed day ill buy a 500 rnd tin from cheaperthandirt and put all the rounds through it in a few hours. Im still working on doing that, but when i do we shall see.

I had a friend with an M16 and one day we put between 600 and 1000 rounds through it in about half an hour. It was so hot we had to wrap a rag around the forend to keep from getting burned. Not a single bobble.

I owned a Mini-14 for awhile. It's not even close to being in the same class. The hammer is made out of folded sheetmetal, for crying out loud. The gas system is also backwards compared the M1-A, etc. It fouls easily and if you don't clean it well after shooting it may seize up on you.

 

[beaucoup ammo]

Question

20 years ago a friend (combat arms instructor at Lackland) and I would head for the ranch with a Ruger Ranch Model Mini 14 and have a great time! He provided the mini-14 and unlimited amounts of ammo.. I provided the ranch.

I was thinking of buying one, now that I have more time.. but (don't laugh, I've been working hard for the last 20 years and not current on laws, etc.!) I get the feeling the .223 clips/mags we used then can't be used now?!

Wha Hoppin?! If I can't blaze away like the old days, I'm not making the purchase.

Thanks In Advance

 

[beaucoup ammo]

Answered My Own Question

Seems there was a pesky Law enacted in 1994 that slipped past me while I had my nose to the grindstone!

However, if I understand correctly, any semi autos and / or large capacity mags manufactured Prior to '94 are still legal and not limited to 10 rounds?

Take Care