Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) policies on gun stuff

[bob40caliber]

I think it is a bunch of crappola!
A manufacturer should not be able to tell a retailer of his product what to advertise for or what to sell at.
If the manufacturer wants to be in the retail business and control all pricing of their product then they should sell all the products themselves---no distributors and no retailers!
If they do not wish to be in the retail business...then let them concentrate on building a superior product and pricing it to their retailers and distributors at a competitive price! And let the retailers "sell" the product where ever they feel they should or must.
MAP only hurts us, the consumer.......and if the manufacturers could force every one of their items to be sold for list---they would. And who would pay more?
You and me!

 

[GunSafari]

Those companies listed above are able to sell at those prices because consumers are still buying from them and not their competitors who offer the same thing at lower prices. Some manufacturers are very strict on these policies and some have the policy but don't enforce, just like with alot of things in life

 

[oneounceload]

Who's selling CT at a loss? Even the low-price retailers are making a profit, just not as large a profit as the MAP price sellers. Further, and to repeat myself, if it's image that CT is worried about, then why have a $50 factory rebate sale that shouts "there's $50 in our price that we can actually live without and still make money"?

How do YOU know if a low-price retailer is making a profit or if it is big enough to cover costs?

Why have a rebate? Because people like to think they are getting a deal - same reason that MSRP for things ends in .99, because 1.99 IS less than 2.00

I bought Tempurpedic mattress set a few years ago - didn't matter who I went to, the price was exactly the same - that's price protection for smaller dealers from the maker - so you go with the best service or some other incentive the seller has (like free delivery, set-up removal of old stuff.

If you have such a hangup about CT, but a competitor's version - that is how you get back at them

 

[Monkeyleg]

How do YOU know if a low-price retailer is making a profit or if it is big enough to cover costs?

I know what wholesale is from the major distributors, so I know how much profit is likely involved for a retailer. There's some differences from distributor to distributor, and some retailers are buying direct (as are the wholesalers). But there's still a profit being made.

I pointed out in a much earlier post two online retail stores that specialize in Crimson Trace. Both have been around for several years, and I've spoken with the owners. If they weren't making money, do you think they'd still be in business?

As for buying from a competitor, it would seem that Crimson Trace has used the legal system as much as possible to keep competitors at bay.

I'm not singling out Crimson Trace here, because there's a lot of manufacturers who are aggressive with MAP policies, which in the end make the consumer pay more. Trijicon, Surefire, Benelli...the list could go on and on.

 

[GunSafari]

There are quite a few sellers who move lots of inventory who violate those MAP policies all day long without any problems from the manufacturers. Some on amazon and ebay don't know how big those guys are, and some who sell mostly to police and military. In the end it comes down to how long you've done business with them and how much business you've done with them, they don't want to terminate a good account

 

[Monkeyleg]

GunSafari, some of the manufacturers, such as Crimson Trace, are going straight to Ebay and Amazon and making them crack down on sellers who have prices shown below MAP.

In the end it comes down to how long you've done business with them and how much business you've done with them, they don't want to terminate a good account

The two "small" retail sites I mentioned early on do a lot of CT sales (maybe even more than Cabelas or Optics Planet), yet CT played hardball with them.

 

[GunSafari]

People like Botach instantly come to mind, they openly sell well below MAP pricing, maybe have a reputation for poor customer service but they sell stuff near cost so people keep coming

 

[leadcounsel]

I absolutely do not like, "Add to cart to see price" or "Call for prices." I just move on... It's much faster and easier for me to scan the prices and pictures and options, than to have someone read it to me on the phone...

 

[Bubba613]

Good. The gun industry has let their market become a race to the bottom. The result is just sloppy with companies putting out junk because they can be one dollar less than the competitors.
The result has been many fewer gun dealers and worse and worse service in the industry. It is a false economy for the consumer.

 

[Strykervet]

All sounds like an attempt to get cartel pricing. A virtual monopoly.

 

[Strykervet]

I absolutely do not like, "Add to cart to see price" or "Call for prices." I just move on... It's much faster and easier for me to scan the prices and pictures and options, than to have someone read it to me on the phone...

Same here. POR means "go away" to me.

 

[deadin]

customers can't see the price right away, nor can they see the price when they're buying.

Can someone give me an example of where you can't see the price until after you commit to buy??

As for the "Call for Price" has always said to me that the seller doesn't have the item in stock (or doesn't stock it at all) and needs to find what he is going to have pay before he can quote a price to the buyer....
It also could be a way of the seller keeping on top of the curve of whatever the going price is for a hard to obtain item. (Like a new issue, etc.)

 

[Monkeyleg]

Same here. POR means "go away" to me.

Precisely. And, if the retailer isn't allowed to show the price, he has no choice but to ask the customer to email or call for a price. Either way, the retailer loses and, ultimately, the customer pays more when he goes to a store that's allowed to show the (higher) price.

Can someone give me an example of where you can't see the price until after you commit to buy??

Trijicon says that the customer can't be shown the price just by clicking the "Add to Cart" button. If adding the item to the cart doesn't show the price, when will you know what the price is?

As for the "Call for Price" has always said to me that the seller doesn't have the item in stock (or doesn't stock it at all) and needs to find what he is going to have pay before he can quote a price to the buyer....

Nope. I absolutely know sellers who have the Trijicon and Crimson Trace sights in stock but, because they're not as well known as Optics Planet or Cabelas, they need to sell at a lower price to compete. They have the product, they have a better price, but they can't show the price.

This is the corner that Trijicon, Crimson Trace and other manufacturers have put many retailers into. The retailers don't have the name recognition of a Cabelas or Optics Planet, so potential customers aren't as quick to buy from them. Internet sales are all about trust. To overcome the potential customer's hesitancy, the smaller retailer needs to offer something more. A lower price is the best incentive.

However, he's now not allowed to show the price anywhere. So, not only is he not trusted as much as the big stores because he doesn't have the name recognition, but he's also being looked at with suspicion because he's forced to have the customer contact him for the price.

If he prices at MAP so he can show his price, he'll lose most of the sales. If he doesn't show the price, he loses many (if not most) of the sales. Either way he loses, the customer loses, and the big outfits like Optics Planet, Cabelas and others (who pressure the manufacturer to go after the below-MAP sellers) are the ones who win.

Meanwhile, the customer doesn't know this is going on, and winds up spending $20 or $40 or $200 or even $300 more than is necessary.

 

[oneounceload]

which in the end make the consumer pay more.

Sorry Monkeyleg - this is just incorrect NO one can MAKE you pay more - the consumer sets the price that he/she will pay - if the customers feels it is too high and does not buy the product, the company has a decision to make - rebate, lower pricing, or some other incentive to move product

I know what wholesale is from the major distributors, so I know how much profit is likely involved for a retailer

Really? You know what Cabela's buys them for as opposed to your LGS? Margins vary so wildly in retail, it can change week to week, even from the same distributor. Makers have incentive pricing for dealers - some have minimums - Want to be a Browning Master Dealer? $25K minimum orders; want to be a Kimber Master Dealer - need to buy a specified selection (including their dogs) - every company has different marketing plans

 

[mizzlep]

Well, I think it's up to the manufacturer and the retailers to decide what's fair. Manufacturers have to keep up a brand image, and part of that image is usually price-point.

But if you think that it's bad you can't see the 'lowest price' for the unit up front, it's worse in some industries. For example, I'm a big snowboarder, and I ride top-end Burton boards. Burton retailers are absolutely forbidden to sell the boards for less than MSRP except at specific authorized discount time periods, and only to a maximum discount which applies to all retailers.
This arrangement goes into detail about not offering anything free with the product, or rebates, or gift cards, etc, except what is specifically authorized. So, retailers aren't allowed to do 'package deals' or 'volume discounts' or anything like that. The price is the price everywhere (or else it's higher).

 

[newfalguy101]

Sooner or later this is going to court and I predict this sort of thing will be deemed illegal. I believe the legal definition is, "restraint of trade".

I dont see any "restraint of trade", I see a company trying to ensure that their smaller dealers have a fair shot at moving their product.

They dont try to force people to SELL for a certian price, they just require they NOT advertise a price lower than the pre-determined price point.

 

[oneounceload]

Well, I think it's up to the manufacturer and the retailers to decide what's fair. Manufacturers have to keep up a brand image, and part of that image is usually price-point.

Incorrect - the customer is the one who ultimately sets the price for goods and services

 

[Monkeyleg]

Sorry Monkeyleg - this is just incorrect NO one can MAKE you pay more - the consumer sets the price that he/she will pay - if the customers feels it is too high and does not buy the product, the company has a decision to make - rebate, lower pricing, or some other incentive to move product.

True enough, although if the consumer knew that he could get the same item for considerably less, I think most consumers would go that route.

Really? You know what Cabela's buys them for as opposed to your LGS? Margins vary so wildly in retail, it can change week to week, even from the same distributor. Makers have incentive pricing for dealers - some have minimums - Want to be a Browning Master Dealer? $25K minimum orders; want to be a Kimber Master Dealer - need to buy a specified selection (including their dogs) - every company has different marketing plans

I'm well aware of master dealer programs, minimum orders (Benelli's $12K/$25K plans, Surefire's, etc). I'm also aware that margins can change. I'm also aware of what most (not all) dealers are paying through various distributors and direct with the manufacturer for the items we've been discussing.

I see a company trying to ensure that their smaller dealers have a fair shot at moving their product.

My point--and I'll just repeat it this last time, as when I find myself repeating myself, I know that I have nothing more to add to a discussion--is that with the manufacturers mentioned, it's the big retailers who are leaning on the manufacturers to muscle the smaller dealers into charging MAP pricing. In doing so, many smaller dealers lose out to the big operations because the big places have name recognition and trust, something that most small dealers don't.

I just thought I'd point out to people that manufacturers with these policies keep prices artificially high. If people are okay with that, then so be it. In the end, it doesn't matter, as there's nothing that can be done. The courts have ruled MAP policies to be legal.

That's all, folks.

 

[mizzlep]

Incorrect - the customer is the one who ultimately sets the price for goods and services

I didn't say they set the price, I said price point.
When I said 'what's fair' between manufacturers and retailers, I was not talking about setting the specific price, merely the contract between them that dictates what each party will agree to as terms for doing business.

 

[dogtown tom]

Monkeyleg:....it's the big retailers who are leaning on the manufacturers to muscle the smaller dealers into charging MAP pricing. In doing so, many smaller dealers lose out to the big operations because the big places have name recognition and trust, something that most small dealers don't.

Wait a minute........

MAP protects that smaller dealer more than you let on. Look at what mega dealers have done with products that don't have MAP....their retail price is cheaper than what I can get from the distributor. By requiring MAP it allows ME (the small dealer) to compete on even footing with the big guys.

I think you put too much credit to name recognition and trust as benefitting the big guys.......a Glock is a Glock no matter where or how you buy it.

If manufacturers eliminated MAP you would be here complaining that you couldn't match the price that Optics Planet charges because they get a better volume discount than you. Right?

 

[Monkeyleg]

Dogtown Tom, do you have an online-only business, a brick-and-mortar store, or a combination?

 

[dogtown tom]

I sell online, at gun shows and do transfers.

 

[Monkeyleg]

If you don't mind my asking, do you do more online sales than gun show sales of the products I've been discussing?

If manufacturers eliminated MAP you would be here complaining that you couldn't match the price that Optics Planet charges because they get a better volume discount than you. Right?

Where MAP policies are not employed or enforced (EOTech, for example), Optics Planet and other big retailers are either at the same price or are higher than smaller retailers. I just did a quick search for "EOTech 512 sight" and found Optics Planet at $415, a couple of smaller retailers at $399 or $389, and one on Amazon for $348. (I have no idea how he can sell for that, as cost is usually about $340).

I think you put too much credit to name recognition and trust as benefitting the big guys.......a Glock is a Glock no matter where or how you buy it.

When it comes time to enter the credit card information and hit the "Submit" button, name recognition and trust make all the difference. Nielson has done thousands of pages of research on customer behavior in the checkout process. All things being equal, customers will feel much more confident buying from Optics Planet than they would from dogtown_tom.com, or whatever your site's name is.

 

[dogtown tom]

MAP has nothing to do with you establishing reputation or trust. Your customers will spread the word. You keep talking about the "big guys" but exactly how did they get big? Not because of MAP, since they are the ones hindered by MAP policies.

MAP is used by manufacturers to ensure that their product has the widest possible exposure through all retail channels....storefront dealers, gun shows, internet, catalog, big box, etc. How often have you heard gun dealers complain when a customer comes in, fondles a few guns, asks a lot of questions and just as the dealer thinks he is about to close the sale........the customer says he can get it from Bud's or GunBroker cheaper? That happens quite a bit. If that local dealer sells his Glocks at the MAP the customer will not find it cheaper online. (not inc sales tax & shipping). But how many local gun stores sell Glocks right at MAP? Not many.....because they don't have to..Glocks regularly sell at many big box retailers for $50-75 more than MAP.

If the manufacturer chooses to allow only his largest volume dealers to sell below MAP or if the manufacturer eliminates it altogether you would see lower prices initially as the smaller dealers get outpriced and can't stay competitive. With fewer dealers retailing that product the price will go back up as they have a limited competition.

For all we know an internet giant is run out of a some guys garage........and many internet retailers are. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from spending the advertising $$$$ to ensure you get upfront placement in search engine results like Optical Planet does.

 

[Monkeyleg]

dogtown tom, you're bringing up points that have already been addressed.

MAP has nothing to do with you establishing reputation or trust. Your customers will spread the word. You keep talking about the "big guys" but exactly how did they get big? Not because of MAP, since they are the ones hindered by MAP policies.

I've already explained at least three times how it's not the big guys being hindered by MAP.

MAP is used by manufacturers to ensure that their product has the widest possible exposure through all retail channels....storefront dealers, gun shows, internet, catalog, big box, etc.

How does setting a price give the widest exposure?

How often have you heard gun dealers complain when a customer comes in, fondles a few guns, asks a lot of questions and just as the dealer thinks he is about to close the sale........the customer says he can get it from Bud's or GunBroker cheaper? That happens quite a bit. If that local dealer sells his Glocks at the MAP the customer will not find it cheaper online. (not inc sales tax & shipping). But how many local gun stores sell Glocks right at MAP? Not many.....because they don't have to..Glocks regularly sell at many big box retailers for $50-75 more than MAP.

Happens to dealers of every product from guns to washing machines, internet or no internet, MAP or no MAP.

Also, people here on THR seem to like Bud's prices. I don't read too many people saying, "Bud's didn't charge me enough!"

If the manufacturer chooses to allow only his largest volume dealers to sell below MAP or if the manufacturer eliminates it altogether you would see lower prices initially as the smaller dealers get outpriced and can't stay competitive. With fewer dealers retailing that product the price will go back up as they have a limited competition.

The advertised prices are already up. It's the unadvertised prices that are low. Sometimes very low. I've already addressed this point.

For all we know an internet giant is run out of a some guys garage........and many internet retailers are. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from spending the advertising $$$$ to ensure you get upfront placement in search engine results like Optical Planet does.

The low-price sellers of CT, Trijicon and other lines are already on the first page of the search engines. My site is, too, for the terms I want, and has been for years. You can pay for search engine optimization, or learn it, as I did.

Huh. I said I wasn't going to debate anymore, and here I go again.