Minimum Loads for 38 Special

[JFrameTwitch]

I am wanting to work up some 38 special with the lightest possible recoil.
Here is what I have on hand to work with.

Powder: Red Dot or Titegroup
Primers: Tula Small Pistol
Projectiles: 158gr CLSWC, 158gr LSWCHP, 158gr LRNFP, 125gr LRN.

My normal load is 3.0gr-3.2gr Red Dot under a 158gr LSWC. This is pretty mild but still has some slap when shot out of a J Frame.

Using the components that I have on hand, what would be a good place to start?
Should I focus on the lighter projectile when looking for a minimum load?

There is published data but I am looking to create something of a true "powder puff" load so to speak.

Any advise on going down toward minimum instead of up toward maximum is welcome. This will be new for me. Thanks

 

[Kingcreek]

My wife and granddaughters have shot a bunch of .38sp with 3.0gr Red Dot under a 158LSWC. pretty accurate out of her old Colt Diamondback.

 

[TfflHndn]

Red dot can be loaded down to about 2.8 grains under a 158 swc according to the powder manufacturer. Try min load and see if it gives you what you are looking for.

 

[1KPerDay]

Definitely go with the 125 grain.

If you can't find some Trail Boss (the winner in the low-recoil dept, IMO) the starting charge of Red Dot would be my choice.

I was previously of the opinion that heavier bullets could be very light recoilers in revolvers... but my testing has shown conclusively (by my standards) that the 125 grain bullet produces MUUUUUCH softer recoil. At least with published loads.

Some more reading for your consideration.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=765345

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree, physics dictates the 125gr bullet will produce less felt recoil and I would also use Red Dot. (because that's what you have)

Alliant has load data for "Cowboy Loads" and with a 125gr RNFP bullet they list a max charge of 4.6gr Red Dot. Go with the starting charge of 4.1gr or even 4.0gr Red Dot and see if that's light enough for you.

A question, do you carry that J frame? If so what ammo do you carry?
I'm asking because recoil management is a learned skill. If you completely avoid recoil in practice you will not learn to manage recoil well. The load you're using right now is very light IMO and if you are carrying the J frame you are not helping yourself.

If I'm completely off on the above just ignore me! lol

 

[sellersm]

+1 to both the 125gr bullet and the Red Dot. I've done light loads using that bullet and Titegroup and it's not the best. I prefer to use a different powder, Bullseye, W231/HP38 or Red Dot.

 

[BCRider]

One of my cowboy buddies is using2.7 to 2.8gns of Tightgroup behind a 130 LRNFP bullet. It's so mild that when RO'ing him we have to hold the timer out by his shoulder to pick up enough of the sound that it trips the timer. I'm willing to bet that these loads have about the same recoil as a .22.

If you can find any Bullseye give loads down to 2.2gns a try. Bullseye has a great rep for being very insensitive to powder amount and positioning in the casing. It must be too since the classic target load is 2.7 to 2.8gns behind a 148gn HBWC. And when you see that little dusting of powder that barely covers the flash hole you really have to wonder....

 

[TexasDon]

My plinking 38 spl. load is 3 grns Red Dot under a 148 gn LWC bullet.
It's not a hard load, but that is subjective I guess.

TxD

 

[Mad Chemist]

Lighter bullet = less felt recoil at minimum powder charge, for a revolver.

This is frequently not the case with semi autos.

Regardless, for a .38spl I can always get the best combo of accuracy and soft recoil with 148gr HBWC.

 

[JFrameTwitch]

148gr LWC will be my next bullet purchase for this experiment.

In the meantime, I agree that the lighter bullet should recoil less. I will load a few up with 2.8gr - 3.0gr red dot and report back.

A question, do you carry that J frame? If so what ammo do you carry?
I'm asking because recoil management is a learned skill. If you completely avoid recoil in practice you will not learn to manage recoil well. The load you're using right now is very light IMO and if you are carrying the J frame you are not helping yourself.

Yep I carry my 642 and it has actually become my favorite gun to shoot. Period. It gets at least 200 rounds per week. Currently I am carrying the Winchester PDX1 .38spl +P. The load I use for my practice with the 642 is 3.8gr of red dot under a 158gr CLSWC. I use this load because to me it feels exactly like the winchester round out of the J-Frame.

We usually shoot the other rounds, (3.0gr-3.2gr Red Dot under a 158gr LSWC) out of other guns.

My wife wants to shoot the 642. As such, I tried the milder round and to me, the recoil/snappiness is not much less. I am accustomed to shooting the 642 but I want her first experience to be as painless as possible.

 

[PistolPete45]

Heavier the Revolver the less felt recoil as well I would think the light loads from any manual should be ok I have a grand daughter that will be shooting with us some day .. the report is going to be her comfort problem she hates loud noises loved her air soft pistols and I picked up some 22 shorts she is happy with . felt recoil in a Single six with 22 shorts is just above nothing ...

 

[TexasDon]

As mentioned, I can feel the difference in felt recoil with 3 of my pistols, first is the ruger gp-100 4", then the s&w highway patrolman 357- 4", finally an older Taurus 38 spl M85 2".

Same load in all three...3 gns Red Dot with my Lee cast with WW's 148 gn WC's.
The 2" Taurus lets you know it's being shot, the Ruger gp-100 is next, but the S&W hardly moves... it's much heavier.

I usually shoot the gp100 for plinking the most mainly because it's lighter to pack around for some time and it's more scratched up because I handle it much more. I guess it's my beater-revolver.
But it's in GREAT shape and keep it that way..looks don't mean much when plinking or shooting at steel plates.

The Highway Patrolman is kind of special and does not get much use.
The Taurus is a nice "pocket" gun. (only 5 shots, but who cares )


TxDoN

 

[rsrocket1]

I've gone down as low as 2.5g Red Dot. Some people have shot 1.9g Bullseye out of a lever action 38/357. I have shot cast gluestick bullets with a primer only but I seated the bullets all the way down against the primer flash hole. I've also accidentally shot a hardcast commercial bullet with a primer only at 231 fps out of a 4" revolver. I would certainly not recommend that load!

I would say keep downloading until you stick a bullet. You will then know how to knock the bullet out of the barrel. A brass rod and hammer should be part of everyone's range bag anyway. Raise the charge back up and keep going until you get 100% bullet exit regardless of temperature or gun angle. I think you'll be surprised how low you can go.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I've gone down as low as 2.5g Red Dot. Some people have shot 1.9g Bullseye out of a lever action 38/357. I have shot cast gluestick bullets with a primer only but I seated the bullets all the way down against the primer flash hole. I've also accidentally shot a hardcast commercial bullet with a primer only at 231 fps out of a 4" revolver. I would certainly not recommend that load!

I would say keep downloading until you stick a bullet. You will then know how to knock the bullet out of the barrel. A brass rod and hammer should be part of everyone's range bag anyway. Raise the charge back up and keep going until you get 100% bullet exit regardless of temperature or gun angle. I think you'll be surprised how low you can go.

Be very cautious when dropping down on the charge. It is a good time to learn how to watch the bullet on the path to the target. Maintain your hold and sight picture and be sure you see the bullet punch the target. If you don't see it happen, check your gun.

It's not the first bullet stuck that damages the barrel, usually the second bullet after the one that sticks.

 

[Rstump]

Yesterday I took my 1920 model antique colt .38 Army special to the gunsmith to have stuck rounds removed from the barrel. We think there are three stuck in there from shooting "extra light" reloads. The advice from the gunsmith was DO NOT go below the published minimum loads. Hopefully I have not ruined a family heirloom.

 

[Jason Neighbors]

I dont know a good load with the powders you have. However I know from experience that SASS shooters use below book loads in their cowboy guns. When I shot that game I used a 125gr .358 lead bullet over 2.7gr of Clays; it was a very comfy load even in a J-frame. I will give this advice though, be careful if you go super low, because what works great in July might stick in the barrel in February.

 

[rcmodel]

I really hate to see new reloaders trying to do this stuff!

The risks are real of a stuck bullet, damaged gun, or worse.

Stick with published Starting loads for the bullets weight you are using.

If those still kick too hard?

You need a smaller caliber gun!

rc

 

[anothernewb]

all factors being equal - If given the gun is the same one used throughout. The logical outcome is that the combination of lowest applicable powder charge and the lightest bullet - will make for the softest shooting round.

Accuracy, however is going to be relative to other combinations.

 

[Stumper]

Your current charge of 3 gr Rdot with the 125 will shoot-no worry about stuck bullets etc. My own favorite reduced recoil load in .38 spl is 3.7 gr Red dot and a 125 grain LFP....but I actually like the recoil of standard loads and only load down for the snubby that is regulated for lighter bullets.

 

[WestKentucky]

I shoot ultralight loads I built for my neice. 125 gr 9mm cast conical in 38 spl cases with 2 gr 231. Flies from my buntline at about 500 fps. On a sunny day you can watch the bullet.

 

[PapaG]

Back in our commercial loading days, pop and I loaded hundreds of thousands of 38 special with the tried and true 148 grain hbwc and 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Powderpuff soft and laser accurate. I still shoot a few hundred a year, or should say Childbride does.

 

[murf]

i'll have to agree with rc here. powders can become unstable when loaded "light", or "heavy". you may not stick a bullet in the barrel now, but later, when someone else is shooting that reduced load, one might.

i'd stay within reloading manual guidelines.

stay safe,

murf

 

[BLU]

Murf...

I'm told that squibs are one reason why some reloading manuals don't list my preferred 158 gr. in the .38 Spec. +P category. Live and learn. I simply went to a bullet that was listed.