Minimum # of rounds through a gun before you trust it??

[nico]

I'm sure there'll be varying opinions, but here goes anyway. What would be the minimum number of rounds you'd want to put through a new handgun before you trust it for self defense? Also, what's the minimum number of rounds of a defensive ammo before you'd trust that ammo in your gun?

I'm looking for a good defensive round for my new bedside gun, but putting a couple hundred rounds of Gold Dot, Golden Saber, or any of the other 20round/box defensive rounds would cost an arm and a leg. Is there really that much of a difference between the $10/50round WWB JHP and the $12-15/20round JHP loads out there? The gun is a 9mm CZ-75 by the way.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I don't thinK theres a whole lot of difference I started to shoot and carry the Rem 230JHP in my 45's Wall Mart sell these in 100 round box Can shoot and carry with same round.Ive been told these are 1st gen, not current 3rd.gen HP. I sure BG can't tell difference.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

My method:

Personal Defense Ammunition Functional Reliability Test for Semiautomatic Handguns

The philosophy is similar to a reliability test procedure I wrote for nuclear weapons.

 

[Malamute]

In an auto, I would suggest that there IS a difference in various loads and reliability. It may be worthwhile to shoot a few hundred cheaper loads to break the gun in, but you do need to shoot a couple boxes of your "defense" loads to know they will work.

My 1911 went several hundred trouble free rounds before having problems. still don't have a definate answer as to why it's failing to function. I haven't carried an auto for a defensive gun in 15 years or so because of things like this.



In revolvers, I can handle and cycle the gun and know if it will work, and I can look through the side of the frame to see if the firing pin is coming through and will fire. I like to shoot at least 6 rounds on paper with a new defense load to check zero, 12 is better, but I have no fear the gun will function and fire with any load once I know it basically works, unless someone "improved" it by lightening the mainspring too much. This isn't hard to spot when handling the gun tho.

 

[sgt127]

100 rounds or so through a revolver. 200 or so through an auto. And, I carry the WWB 115 JHP in my Kahr PM9 for the reason you suggested. I can shoot a ton of it, cheap. I know where the round goes, every time. I know its reliable in my gun. I've also tried the Remington 115 JHP with the same reliability. My Kahr has at least 1000 rnds between those two. The price of the "designer" ammo is just too high for me to shoot the number of rounds I would want to..

I think ammo is alot like motor oil. You like Penzoil...I like Havoline etc..but, if we both change our oil every 5000 or so miles, we'll get about the same results. With ammo, any good ammo from a decent manufacturer is fine. One penetrates a little more, hopefully thats not what I'm carrying if the bad guy is really skinny, the other expands like a champ, hopefully the bad guy isn't a 350 pound gorrilla...The only absolutes are that it better be reliable and accurate.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Once around is enough in some guns a thousand may be too few in others.

Once around is enough in some guns a thousand may be too few in others.

I've had a couple of S&W's including a Model 58 that I could hardly adjust the sights on where I would be willing to buy a box of 20 - fire six, load six and a speedloader and go walking around in Indian Country.

I've had a nice 1911 carry gun with a maker's mark on it in 9X23 that I'd buy 2 boxes of 50 shoot all my magazines dry once and refill them and carry it - it's a pleasure to shoot though so.....

I've had a nice Wilson CQB that has just over 500 shots of mostly WW White Box and S&B through it that I'd be happy to take any of the premium ammunition - maybe the Hornady TAP-FPD? -fire a full load from a lead magazine then fire a less than full load from each magazine I intended to use (I do have a few more magazines in .45 than 9x23, maybe qualify only about 10 magazines or maybe 100 shots and a dozen magazines? I find one 47D is pretty much like another of the same vintage but then again I could regret that someday too) but in this gun I'd truly be testing the magazines not the pistol IMHO.

Not that it's a carry gun, but I do have a couple of Service Ace units that a thousand flawless (hasn't come close yet but the ammunition is cheap) wouldn't be nearly enough to make me trust them - maybe 5,000 - and that might be enough to loosen them up and make them work.

 

[psyopspec]

I generally stick to 500 rounds of practice ammo for breaking in a new gun followed by 100 rounds of what I intend to carry in that gun.

Is there really that much of a difference between the $10/50round WWB JHP and the $12-15/20round JHP loads out there?

Yes - the crimping that attaches the jackets to the hollow points varies between brands, as does the size of the cavity in the hollowpoint.

Does is matter if you use JHP from WWB? That's a question that could only be answered by monday morning qb'ing after you've used it. I recall a police officer on this board saying that he had never heard of the medical examiner recovering an expanded HP from a body. However, should the impossible occur and I'm in a defensive shooting, and furthermore, should the HP's I have expand, I want them to do so as much as possible. I understand that money is a consideration - I go with a balance of "what works" vs. "what I can afford."

 

[c_yeager]

For me its about 200 plinking rounds followed by 100 of my chosen defensive load, fired CONSECUTIVELY without a failure in one session.

If i fire 200 plinking rounds and 99 defensive rounds and get a failure on number 100 its time to start over after making sure that the gun is sound. The only auto I carry these days is a Bersa .380 that hasnt had a single failure since i purchased it brand new (just over 1000 rounds through it).

To be honest having even one unexplainable failure does a bit to shake my faith in a firearm.

 

[CajunBass]

I trusted mine right out of the box. It was the only gun I had. I'm fresh out of long claws and sharp teeth so it was better than nothing.

Since then, several hundred rounds later, I've seen nothing to indicate that would have been a big mistake.

 

[middy]

100 rounds in a row of my carry load (147gr WWB 9mm JHP) without failure.

If you're going to use white box ammo for defensive purposes, please inspect every round thoroughly as this ammo comes off of a fully automated line.

 

[boofus]

If it's a HK, 50 rounds.

 

[cpileri]

wow

Shawn Dodson,
You wrote that!! That is a SUPERB article: by far the most complete reliability test i have ever seen.
Nice work.

I was going to offer my own flowchart that acknowledges its weaknesses (but at least its simple), but I say just do yours if you have the time.
C-

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

100-200 rounds break-in and general familiarization/plinking. Then I use the pistol in a couple of sessions of competition. This is all with FMJ.

Then I would definitely put 100 rounds of HP through it. Expensive, yes, but worth it. I have had pistols that would hesitate on HP's after the FMJ break-in.

I recall a police officer on this board saying that he had never heard of the medical examiner recovering an expanded HP from a body.

That sounds a bit of a stretch. One of our local ER's photographs recovered bullets, and they certainly looked expanded.

 

[grimjaw]

Revolver: one cylinder for reliability; 100 or less for accuracy, especially if the gun has already been sighted in with the same bullet weight.

Semi-auto I think it depends on the gun. I only have experience with two. If it will fire out of the Makarov 100 times , it'll probably fire the next 500. I haven't found anything that will jam it, but I haven't fired hollowpoints yet. I keep a loaded Bobcat next to the bed (no kids in my apt or nearby apartments), and I want at least 250-300 rounds of a particular cartridge through that one before I'll trust it.

Mr Dodson's steps are extremely thorough, and I'll use those on the Makarov soon. Much thanks, sir.

jmm

 

[Candiru]

I generally use about 200 rounds of ball ammo for break-in, followed by at least three magazines of my carry ammo, loaded like I carry it (full mag, one round in the chamber). I'm happy to have found Speer Lawman ammo. This is FMJ ammo in brass cases with the same weight bullet and powder loaded to simulate the ballistics of the equivalent Gold Dot cartridge. This will let me familiarize myself with POI and recoil behavior without having to send too many dollars downrange.

There's one cautionary tale I'd like to relate. After testing my Kel-Tec P-32 with Sellier & Bellot, I decided to load it with yet-unfired Federal American Eagle rounds. After all, I figured, if the cheap Czech ammo worked, Federal's higher quality was a sure thing. The next time I went to the range I started by firing off this ammo and discovered that the third round was a dud. As I've since discovered, I got a bad batch of ammo. I learned not to assume things about any ammunition.

Now, I buy several boxes of carry ammo and make a testing box. I'll pick a magazine full of ammo at random from each box, labeled so that I can tell which box it came from. I then use that ammo in my reliability testing.

 

[Marko Kloos]

With factory ammo, I trust any of my wheelguns to function without even firing a single test round.

For defensive ammo, I usually shoot a few cylinders just to check for grouping with the fixed sights.

That's one of the nice things about wheelguns...no need to spend a hundred bucks for "function testing" of ammo in your carry gun.

 

[sgt127]

Now, I buy several boxes of carry ammo and make a testing box. I'll pick a magazine full of ammo at random from each box, labeled so that I can tell which box it came from. I then use that ammo in my reliability testing.

Good point, I thought I was the only one who did this. I fire at least 5 rounds out of any box I will put in a carry gun, just in case it was a bad lot.

 

[gazpacho]

400 round mixed brands to break-in the gun and find any manufacturing flaws. Then, starting from a clean gun, I'll rapid fire 50 rounds of the chosen SD ammo. The SD ammo must function 100%. The 400 break-in rounds don't have to, but a significant number of failures will rule out that gun for SD.

Repeat the 50 SD round test every 6 months.

 

[Rockstar]

Zero: Glocks only, of course.

 

[Zach S]

I generally stick to 500 rounds of practice ammo for breaking in a new gun followed by 100 rounds of what I intend to carry in that gun.

+1. And it applies to everything, not just carry guns.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I don't know that a set number of rounds makes a lot of sense.

I have some pretty tight 1911's that will begin to jam when they get really dirty, after about 150 rounds. However, they have never failed when they are clean.

Does that mean the gun is unreliable to carry? No way, in my opinion. I would not want to carry one of these guns dirty, but there is no way it will get so dirty in a self defense situation that it would fail.

I don't feel that my gun needs to operate past about 100 rounds without a cleaning. There is no situation that I can think of (including TEOTWAWKI) where I would not be able to break a handgun down and clean it before it got so dirty it would not shoot.

Does that make sense?

 

[HSMITH]

At least 500 rounds regardless of action type or manufacurer, it takes that long to get to know a gun anyway. Of the 500 rounds at least 200 will be the intended carry round.

 

[22-rimfire]

I'll paraphrase another poster.... first magazine full from an auto is to check functionality. First cylinder full with a revolver is to check impact on a target. Now you know why I prefer wheel guns!

If it is a name brand revolver (ie. expensive), I trust a revolver right out of the box. I don't care for the cheap stuff....H&R, Charter, etc. Never buy them as I would never shoot them. I have lots of paper weights already.

If you shoot handguns, you'll probably be able to hit a man sized target at 10 yards without firing a shot with any handgun with a 3" or longer barrel. But, you miss a lot of the fun!

 

[sgt127]

I don't know that a set number of rounds makes a lot of sense.

I have some pretty tight 1911's that will begin to jam when they get really dirty, after about 150 rounds. However, they have never failed when they are clean.

Does that mean the gun is unreliable to carry? No way, in my opinion. I would not want to carry one of these guns dirty, but there is no way it will get so dirty in a self defense situation that it would fail.

I don't feel that my gun needs to operate past about 100 rounds without a cleaning. There is no situation that I can think of (including TEOTWAWKI) where I would not be able to break a handgun down and clean it before it got so dirty it would not shoot.

Does that make sense?

I don't fire all the rounds at one time. I didn't trust may Kahr PM9 until it had been to the range three times and shot 100 rounds or so on each trip, with a decent, though not detail, cleaning between trips.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

In a revolver a few hundred rounds is sufficient. Maybe 4 boxes or so. In an autoloader, I want to get at least 1000 rnds down it and several breakdown and cleaning sessions before I trust it.