Missed pocket 1911 market?

[WestKentucky]

The 1911 is a true classic which has recently spawned some miniature cousins in the form of 1911 style pocket autos like the Sig p238 and Kimber Micro lines. But why has it stopped with a steel or alloy framed single stack pistol in 380 and/or 9mm. At this point there are a number of variations of the guns and some are duty driven designs where some are simply beautiful...much like the full sized variety. I don't understand why everybody got to that point then sat back snickering and raking in the money from sales in a highly competitive market. There's one HUGE option on 1911s that is missing in the miniature ponies...leading towards the STI 2011 pattern. Why not go double stack? It's a pocket gun, it's a defensive tool. People like the single stack version and they sell but I keep hearing "only 7 rounds" followed by weeping and glock and Ruger sales among others. Jumping to a double stack by shaving grips and re-engineering the magwell seems like a no brainer. I would seriously consider a p238 at that point. Make it a $600 gun rather than a $500 gun and that's fine by me. People willing to pay for a current p238 or Micro or .380 Browning would easily shell out the extra few bucks to go to 12 or 13 rounds.

 

[gsbuickman]

it seems to me that Bersa has already cornered that market with guns like the Bersa Thunder plus in. .380 or. .45acp . I carried a Bersa Thunder plus for a while and I really liked it. It was a 14+1 double stack sa /da w/ a decocker, 3-dot combat sights and a fixed Barrel. it was a damn nice subcompact and worked great as my daily carry.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

Would a double-stack be thin enough to serve as a pocket gun?

 

[gsbuickman]

I have a friend that carries a little bitty micro pocket 9mm. I don't remember what it is butt I swear it has 40 acres of creep in the trigger and the trigger pull has gotta be 16 lbs or so. it is by far the most horrible trigger I have ever pulled.

the thing that really annoys me about these little bitty pocket pistols is they remind me of those little knockoff 1911 .25 acp's & they feel like Tinker Toys and I feel as though I have to hold them with two fingers just so I don't break them.

 

[Varminterror]

^ that guy has never shot a Kimber or Sig P238

 

[AZAndy]

If my P938 was double stack, it wouldn't go in my front pocket any more. It's barely okay as it is.

 

[rskent]

I don’t think I would buy a double stack 238.

Now if Glock came out with a double stack 42, that would be cool.

 

[gsbuickman]

I will never carry a pistol loose in my pocket regardless of what it is, that just seems too ghetto to me. if I can't carry it in a holster I don't need it and if it and the holster are small enough to fit in my pocket no thanks those just feel like they're made of Legos or tinker toys. then again my friend bought a Super Blackhawk or maybe it was a Redhawk revolver, either way that thing felt like a tinkertoy to me as well

 

[AZAndy]

I will never carry a pistol moose in my pocket regardless of what it is, that just seems too ghetto to me. if I can't carry it in a holster I don't need it and if it and the holster are small enough to fit in my pocket no thanks those just feel like they're made of Legos or tinker toys. then again my friend bought a Super Blackhawk or maybe it was a Redhawk revolver, either way that thing felt like a tinkertoy to me as well

Sometimes pocket carry is the best I can do, due to wardrobe requirements. Good pocket holsters can be had, like the Mika or DeSantis Nemesis. In the summer, I can carry most anything I want, because I wear Hawaiian shirts. In the cooler months, my office is too warm for a jacket, so pocket it is.

 

[MedWheeler]

I will never carry a pistol moose in my pocket..

What is a "pistol moose"?

 

[Scarpia]

but I keep hearing "only 7 rounds"

One of life's mysteries. Most shooters won't hesitate to carry a snubbie wheel gun with 6 rounds of 357 Magnum but won't consider a semi-auto in 45 ACP with "just" seven rounds of mayhem, go figure.

 

[bannockburn]

I wouldn't really be interested in a double stack pocket 1911; just too wide for my way of thinking for pocket carry. Doing just fine with my Colt Mustang and SIG P238.

 

[TarDevil]

I will never carry a pistol moose in my pocket regardless of what it is, that just seems too ghetto to me. if I can't carry it in a holster I don't need it and if it and the holster are small enough to fit in my pocket no thanks those just feel like they're made of Legos or tinker toys. then again my friend bought a Super Blackhawk or maybe it was a Redhawk revolver, either way that thing felt like a tinkertoy to me as well

I once felt the same, but more and more realize that while standing or walking it's the quickest way to deploy my gun. I'm able to maintain a grip at all times. Granted, while seated it's nearly impossible to deftly extract the gun.
Pocket carry is, at times, the only way my aging and deteriorating back will permit carry.

 

[Tirod]

The point of a pocket gun is that it IS limited in size and capacity. Asking for a double stack version defeats the purpose - a small, thin, highly concealable gun that doesn't use a belt holster. It goes in your pocket.

The 1911 type layout works fine in .380 and 9mm - triggers for pocket guns are a different matter, tho. Most makers tend to keep them up at the 6 pound weight because they are NOT in a holster, they are subject to being pushed and shoved by furniture, seat belts, and they are considered defensive weapons, not precision target range guns. That's the difference between "tactical field" and championship target - the first uses a heavier trigger for rough use under potentially adrenaline laced circumstances, the second is a fair weather controlled circumstances gun where you DON'T want or even anticipate physically demanding exertion.

Pocket guns with target triggers are just accidents waiting to happen, same as deer rifles with 3 pound triggers in the field. And double stack pocket guns are a question nobody is much asking - there is very little to no advantage when you cut them down for size and leave the mag capacity so reduced it's moot. The comparable double stacks only offer a round or two more - a magazine kit for the single stack guns does as much. Which a lot of owners exercise. The Kahr CW380 has one that ups the capacity by another round, and in the extended mags, add another giving you 8-9 shots. So where does a double stack with short grip offer much? Not so much.

A 1911 double stack with 6-8 pound trigger sold for pocket use isn't that appealing on the market - and in .45 it would be expected to have reliability issues because it's a large frame auto cut down to a minimalist size nearly out of it's operating envelope. Too many reports of the 3.5" models having issues are already out there, no telling what a 3" would be like.

 

[DeadEye9]

I don't think there really is a market for a double stack "pocket gun". If you think about it no one makes them. Sure there are some really small double stacks; I own a Glock 26, 30, KelTec P11, Para Ordnance Warthog Hi-Cap. They are all perfectly good for CC, but wouldn't be comfortable in a pocket in my opinion. The Warthog is a subcompact 1911 double stack. It holds 10+1 in a flush mag. Notice that is only 3 more than most of the 7 round singles but is ALOT thicker. I think this is part of the reason you don't see many double stack 1911 pocket pistols. You simply don't get much more return for that extra size and weight. Pocket guns by nature have to be slim, as width/thickness is the hardest feat to overcome in a pocket. By making even a small frame gun as wide as a double needs to be your pretty much turning fit back into a holster/belt gun. I also don't think the market is suffering because if people weren't buying all these pocket single stacks then you wouldn't see every manufacturer making them these days, because at the end of the day they make what sells. The concept of a pocket gun anyway means you are inately giving up something anyway, in this case barrel length and capacity. You really just can't cheat physics and if you want double digit numbers in capacity with a service caliber your going to get a fairly large platform. By the same token if you want a comfortable, slim, Tiny pocket gun your going to have to live with limited capacity and a short barrel. I personally don't do the pocket carry much myself for my main duty weapon, only for my backup/auxiliary pistol. I'm 6ft and around 200lbs and can easily conceal a compact or subcompact Glock no matter what I'm wearing. There are enough holster options available that even shorts and a t shirt is enough to conceal carry a G19/32 or 26/27 in my frame, so the only time I wear one in my pocket is when I'm carrying a backup/auxiliary. It may be more comfortable to some smaller frame persons to pocket carry their main pistol, however in that case you have to be realistic in the amount of rounds you are going to be able to carry. If it's not enough for your comfort, simply practice reload drills, which you should do anyway, and carry a couple extra mags on your person.

 

[DMK]

I don't think there really is a market for a double stack "pocket gun". If you think about it no one makes them.

The S&W Shield sort of solves that problem. It's almost a double stack (semi-double stack?), but is thin enough for pocket carry.

Weights a whole different issue. Fully loaded, it's just a bit too heavy for that role in my opinion though, but it is definitely doable and I have carried mine that way a few times.

 

[stoky]

A .45 pocket pistol is a hand full, that doesn't fill the hand. IMO 9mm is pushing the limit of a pocket pistol. As a matter of fact, I've no use for a .357 snubbie either. I think there might be a picture of a double stack .45 pocket pistol in the dictionary, under oxymoronic.
I think the Officer's Model .45 is pretty close to the border line of how small you want to make a .45, maybe over (or under) it. They're not pocket size............well maybe if you're Capt. Kangaroo.
The Warthog's and such are cool, but I can't help but not notice people shooting them at the range much. Are you really going to want to practice with something like this enough to be proficient with it?

 

[Ironicaintit]

A double stacked 380acp with 1911 style controls? I'd be in the market.

For a short time, I carried a Mauser HSC80 in .380(double stack), but the heel mag release and backwards safety made me rethink it.
I don't mind a .380, but I want more capacity, with controls that my muscles already have memorized.

That particular fork in the road is why I compromised a bit on "concealability" and went to the BHP.

 

[jeffk3630]

I guess it all comes done to personal preference. I don't like to have heavy things in my pockets. Even large knives can be too much. I like small pistols like the Beretta bobcat or Seecamp. I don't know if there would be a big market for a pocket 45acp. I feel large pistol for pocket carry is defeating the purpose of pocket carry. Anything larger then a small auto goes on my belt.

 

[Coyote3855]

I will never carry a pistol moose in my pocket regardless of what it is, that just seems too ghetto to me. if I can't carry it in a holster I don't need it and if it and the holster are small enough to fit in my pocket no thanks those just feel like they're made of Legos or tinker toys. then again my friend bought a Super Blackhawk or maybe it was a Redhawk revolver, either way that thing felt like a tinkertoy to me as well

Gee, if a Super Blackhawk or a Redhawk felt like tinkertoys, what do you carry for self defense? BTW, if you don't remember the difference between a Super Blackhawk (single action) and a Redhawk (double action), this casts some aspersion on your expertise regarding handguns and your comments on these firearms. Both of these Rugers are bull tough and hog tight.

I often pocket carry a KelTec P3AT or a Kahr .380 in a pocket holster either alone or as a backup to a Glock 19.

 

[gsbuickman]

Sometimes pocket carry is the best I can do, due to wardrobe requirements. Good pocket holsters can be had, like the Mika or DeSantis Nemesis. In the summer, I can carry most anything I want, because I wear Hawaiian shirts. In the cooler months, my office is too warm for a jacket, so pocket it is.

Yeah, that's understandable and I have many friends in the same situation but I feel Mighty uncomfortable whenever I've tried it. I'm one of the local bikers here in the valley so a pocket carry is also uncomfortable and a pain in the butt when I'm in the saddle on my putt', especially if I'm wearing my chaps. I prefer to carry owb at the small of my back but this can also be uncomfortable when I'm ridin'. when I'm off my putt its either at 6 o'clock or if I'm wearing my vest which is a majority of the time it's in my holster in my inside breast pocket and that works great with this new Browning hi-power because it's really thin like the 1911

 

[rskent]

I don't think there really is a market for a double stack "pocket gun".

Not as a pocket gun, just to have. I don’t even carry my 238 in my pocket. It hides just fine in a belt holster.
Same with the G42. IWB or belt holster. I already have too much crap in my pockets.

 

[RX-79G]

The S&W Shield sort of solves that problem. It's almost a double stack (semi-double stack?), but is thin enough for pocket carry.

It has the same capacity as single stacks of the same height. They may have gained some reliability, but not capacity.

 

[CDW4ME]

Pocket guns are slim so they fit in pocket and be drawn without snag; most people view a Glock 43 as pocket carry, not the Glock 26.
6 + 1 capacity of Glock 43 / Kahr PM9 or 5 + 1 of Kahr PM40 is adequate as a 2nd option to a full size pistol IWB.

 

[Zerodefect]

I don't even pocket carry the smallest guns, they still get a holster and belt. "Is that $9.80 in nickles in your pocket?" Too heavy, too much swing. A double stack would be a nightmare.

A small pistol in a Crossbreed minituck completely disappears.