Mixed Ammo Loadout - Thoughts?

[HankB]

I remember my Dad told me that during WWII, the armorers would load belts of .50 BMG for the P-51s with different types of ammo for a "combat load" . . . I think I remember him telling me the loadout included ball, AP, tracer, incendiary, maybe explosive, and that all the different color tips made the ammo belts colorful. But they were effective on both Jap aircraft and ground targets.

Shift now from belt fed ammo for fighter plane machine guns to small arms, say, a semi auto AR-pattern rifle for home/self defense. There's been advice floating around for a long time that the first few rounds loaded into a mag - hence, the last ones fired - should be tracers, to let the shooter know when he's running dry. (Few - very few! - defense scenarios would involve shooting a 20 or 30 round magazine dry. And even seeing the tracers would probably mean engaging targets some distance out, unlikely but not impossible for self defense.)

But with so much training seeming to emphasize double or triple taps, has anyone given thought to staggering the loadout between, say, green tip penetrators and some sort of soft point, assuming same POI and reliable function? So a double tap would involve both increased penetration and improved terminal performance?

Or is the nature of the target such that it really doesn't matter that much - the soft points will have enough penetration, and the green tips will have enough terminal effect?

 

[Warp]

How effective are tracers on a target? What do you value more, seeing the tracers telling you that you are almost out (which you probably already know or at least figure) or having rounds that are as effective as possible thus increasing your chance of ending the threat?

I put Hornady TAP FPD (80268) in my rifle for when it is sitting ready in the house.

I put Winchester Ranger bonded (RA556B) in my rifle for when I leave the house with it (traveling, car gun, etc).

Sometimes I mix magazines, as in I put 10-15 rounds of something less expensive in the bottom of the magazine (M193/M855) and the more expensive/better round on top. My reasoning is that the premium ammo is expensive, and with testing it, loading a magazine or more with it, and shooting it here and there on a continual basis, I 'stretch' it a bit and really don't think that will ever matter. What are the chances I'll ever use the rifle defensive? Very slim. Chances I'll use more than 10-15 rounds out of it? Virtually nill. Chances I'll use more than 10-15 rounds out of it, and the difference in terminal ballistics between TAP and M193 makes a difference? I'll win the lottery before that happens, I suspect.

At 25 yards (only distance I have tested all of those + others) the POI are essentially identical.

 

[bullet1104]

also highly unlikely that a home/self defense scenario will have enough distance for tracers to "light up" and be visible

 

[oldpapps]

For military use, ok. I'm flying about in my P-51, you can see me. I start shooting with a tracer mix, both you and I can see where I'm hitting or missing.
Tracers are great, the shooter can see where the hits are. The bad guy/s can also see where the shots are coming from.

For practical use, mixing means a lot of pre-planning. Explain that to a jury.

I double or triple tap just because of years of training. Shoot until the threat is neutralized. Feral dog looking for dinner, not me.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

homeboy's question was about alternating green tip penetrator ammo with soft point ammo

 

[oldpapps]

Mr Rat, I stand adjusted. I got caught up reading the follow ups and for got the original post. Thank you.

I load all of my stuff and don't see any advantage to mixing. I know the differing points of impact for my set loads and they are not the same, close in some cased is the best I could hope for.

 

[henschman]

I don't see any advantage in this for a rifle, for either defensive use or combat. Have a load of reliable, effective ammo that your rifle is sighted for, and shoot until the threat stops.

Now on my shotgun I keep it loaded with buckshot, but I keep some slugs on the sidesaddle shell holder that can be thrown in quickly if I need them. But for a rifle, I don't see how having different types of ammo would ever come in handy. Gunfights rarely play out in a way where you would see a threat, and then decide which specific type of ammo you want to load to engage it with. It is more like shoot until you are empty, then load instinctively and shoot some more. The last thing you want on your mind in that situation is what type of ammo you are grabbing, or whether the mag you want is in the front pouch or the rear one, etc.

I know you are talking more about loading several different types of ammo in your mag, but I just don't see any advantages. Also every different load will have a different point of impact. You don't want your POI changing between every shot, even in a fairly close quarters situation.

Blazing on full auto from six wing mounted machine guns and walking your stream of fire into aircraft and ground targets is a completely different situation than anything you would do with a rifle.

 

[stubbicatt]

For years I loaded first two on top of the mag were TAP, then a SS109, then 2 TAP, etc. My reasoning is that you cannot be certain what scenario you are facing before it happens.

I figure the first one or two will take down at least one perpetrator, and if three, so be it. If I am required to shoot through a car door or something hard, then just keep firing until the threat is neutralized, surely one or more of the bullets will get there? (And yes, I am aware of the legal pitfalls of using a firearm of whatever type in a SD situation, and a "evil black rifle" in particular).

I recognize that nowadays there are better projectiles for such things than SS109, but I haven't researched it all that much.

So, OP, yes I think it is a viable plan.

 

[Sav .250]

Home/ self defense.......... AR pattern Rifle. Tracers. Green tip penetrators
plus some sort of soft-point. Mixed and matched. 20-30 round mag.

Rambo/ Al Pacino would be proud of you sir. Are we still talking about protection or repelling some sort of gang action?

I say the above with tonque in cheek of course but the idea as you presented it is to far out for me. When you mentioned , tracers that tipped the scales. Home defense/personal protection is just that. If your encounter ends up like Rambo`s, you`ve gone to far.

One other note. After reading in the NRA American Rifleman,The Armed Citizen for many years, not once have I seem anyone say they`ve used an AR ( with tracers for what ever reason) as a means to protect themselves.

You posed the question, I`m just giving you my take on it.
You can load that AR anyway you like.............

 

[mljdeckard]

For war? I know SOME soldiers who did this. Mostly infantry guys. For a civilian defensive rifle......how many times do you plan on reloading? And do you only plan to reload when you see those tracers?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It seems to me that the agencies who have a strong need for penetration, good terminal ballistics, and barrier penetration (and aren't bound by military restrictions) all use a bonded hollowpoint. That seems like a good clue to me.

M855 would be pretty far down the list of rounds I would use regardless of whether I wanted penetration or terminal ballistics. Even if you are forced to deal with military restrictions on ammo, there are better choices.

 

[stubbicatt]

B. Roberts, of the choices of bonded hollowpoints you are aware of, which would you suggest a body look at for these applications?

Thanks.
Stubb

 

[Jim Watson]

At home defense (short) range, hardball is reported to fragment and make nasty wounds.
I see no advantage to "candy cane" loading with softpoints.
I have also seen enough reports of failures to feed with softpoints that I would have to do a lot of testing before counting on them in an AR.

 

[FMF Doc]

We did mix our mags in Afg. We put the first and last 3 as tracers. That way, the first person to engage let everyone else know where to start firing. The last three let us know we needed to reload before we got a click instead of a bang. I don't mix up my mags now, but I do have some mags with 55gr fmj, and others with 62gr green tip. I color the bottoms of the mags to let me know what I have. I don't have any IMMEDIATE need for steel-core penetrators...but that doesn't mean I won't in the future. Better to have then and not need them than the other option.

 

[Robert101]

I can see the advantage of mixing types of ammo in a true gun battle. The only time I mix loads domestically is duck hunting with a shot gun. First loads are #6 and last load is #4 shot for further distance shooting if I missed and the game is traveling farther away.

I also keep a few mags of full metal jackets in 308 for penetration. That is really the most doom and apocalyptic I get.

 

[Skribs]

Staggered loads have been suggested in autoloaders (ball and JHP), shotguns (usually gradiating from birdshot to buckshot to slugs), so it makes sense they would be asked in a rifle forum. I tend to think you should stick to the same load with the same properties. That way you're not worrying about "will this round go through that barrier behind him or will it fail on the barrier in front?"

I believe in the KISS principle. Keep one type of load, provides a consistent profile.

 

[tyeo098]

B. Roberts, of the choices of bonded hollowpoints you are aware of, which would you suggest a body look at for these applications?

Thanks.
Stubb

Winchester Ranger Bonded 9mm. They claim its what LEO and the FBI carry.

It what I carry.

 

[sixgunner455]

I put all of the tracers I was issued into one magazine. I figured, if I got through seven magazines and needed that one, tracers would be fine then. All my other magazines had green tip penetrators in them.

Tracers are supposed to have similar ballistic effect to the regular ball round.

In my two main AR15 magazines now, there are 64gr Winchester Ranger softpoints, no staggering. In the third loaded magazine, there are 55gr 5.56 ball rounds. All the rest of the magazines are resting, empty.

Three full magazines sitting on top of my safe sometimes seems a little excessive, but I used to run around with 7+ on my person, and another 10 or so in an ammo can by my feet, so these days, I feel that I am being quite reasonable. Conservative, even.

 

[Warp]

At home defense (short) range, hardball is reported to fragment and make nasty wounds.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

B. Roberts, of the choices of bonded hollowpoints you are aware of, which would you suggest a body look at for these applications?

I generally follow DocGKRs recommendations. The 55gr and 50gr TSX are nice for shorter barrels.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

 

[Warp]

B. Roberts, of the choices of bonded hollowpoints you are aware of, which would you suggest a body look at for these applications?

Thanks.
Stubb

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881