AR15 Home Defense Ammo

[mrbill18]

I'm trying to pick out a good round for self defense inside my home or on my property (standard city lot). I live in the suburbs in a sheetrock/wood frame house with neighbors on 3 sides. My wife and I are the only ones in the house, so sleeping children in an adjacent bedroom aren't an issue. The rifle in question is a m4gery with 16" barrel (1/9 twist).

After reading just about everything I can find on the subject, I'm leaning towards loading a 30 round magazine with 10 rounds Hornady 40g V-max, 10 rounds M193, and 10 rounds M855. This would give me increasing levels of penetration. I can't imagine firing more than a few shots in self defense, so I'm fretting my choice of the 40g V-max. I would imagine that even a light varmint round would achieve some decent penetration at household distances (7 yards or so) while having a very low chance of riccochet or exiting the house.

What ammo is everyone else using in their ARs for home defense?

*I understand there are pros/cons with using a rifle in this role vs a handgun. Significant stopping power, lower chance of rounds exiting the house, and the fact that my wife can rack/manipulate the AR easier than any of my centerfire handguns have swayed my decision.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

See "5.56 mm Duty Loads" - http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

 

[marktx]

Don't be stupid, get some frangible ammo that won't put holes through your neighbors house/car/kid/wife/dog/whatever. Winchester makes 55gr 5.56 that should work just fine, if memory serves there is also Fiocchi frangible and probably some others. If you really think you need something more then load up the first 10 rounds with frangible and load up the rest with whatever.

If you can't solve self defense problems with the frangible ammo then you probably need to work on your shooting skills more than fretting over ammo choice. Even the 10 grain plastic bullet German 7.62 training ammo has as much/more energy than a 9mm at household ranges. Frangible ammo can be very deadly, it just is less likely to punch through walls and endanger other people. If you seriously think that you might need to shoot through walls/cars/whatever then you need to reevaluate where you live.

Another way to think about it is how likely are you to use a gun in self defense knowing that if you miss it will pose a serious threat to your neighbors? At least with frangible ammo it's more likely that stray rounds will break apart hitting walls than just punching through and ventilating a kid's head.

 

[briansmithwins]

Local PD uses light weight varmint rounds in their patrol rifles.

The guys they shoot with them tend to die after one round in the torso.

BSW

 

[kwelz]

Don't be stupid, get some frangible ammo that won't put holes through your neighbors house/car/kid/wife/dog/whatever

Seriously? If you would do some reading you will see that this is not the case. Current generation rounds like Hornady TAP have less wall penetration than a 9mm Handgun. What more do you want?

Frange rounds are terrible for SD.

 

[Dr.Rob]

If I was going to use an AR exclusively for that I'd load a 55 gr soft point.

Winchester and Prvi both make good 55gr sp ammo loaded to M193 velocity.

Practice with what you'll use at close range in bad lighting.

 

[Mr.Blue]

I'd go with Hornady TAP in the 62 grain variety. Tests have shown that the TAP rounds are effective in close quarters, not over penetrating as much as other .223 rounds.

 

[dprice3844444]

12 gauge be better

 

[Cosmoline]

There some good info here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146306

I can see no need for frangible 5.56 bullets. Any softpoint or even the old ball traveling at those velocities at point blank range is not going to give much if any realistic over-penetration concerns.

I would stay well clear of the V-max 40 grain rounds. Those are varmint rounds and aren't really set up to give enough penetration.

Not much point in mixing ammo in the magazine. It reminds me of the guys who have multiple layers of shells of various kinds for bear guns. As if they're going to get beyond the first one.

 

[gotigers]

I have seen many test that all centerfire ammo will over penetrate. The only exception was 12ga 6 shot or smaller. I have seen .223, 9mm and buck shot going thru several sheet rock walls.

 

[b7tac]

I use a m&p .45, but if I used my AR, I would load it with some type of soft tip varmint ammo. Just don't use the fmj mil surp stuff. Over penetration would be a problem in that case.

 

[Erik M]

I have to agree with Dr.Rob, a 55 gr soft point.

 

[LeonCarr]

I use the 64 grain Winchester Power Point in .223 for everything in the AR. Some folks have an "indoor" magazine loaded with 55 grain varmint type bullets and an "outdoor" magazine loaded with a 60 grain or heavier bonded type bullet. I find that the 64 grain Power Point is a good all around, loose bullets are available for handloading, and it also does a great job on deer and hogs .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[mortablunt]

Amazing how you guys were giving me all sorts of admonishments when I brought up the idea of using an AK for HD. An AR round, even if it's Hornady, will carry through the bad guy, the wall, several other walls, and still be capable of killing. IMO, see if you can get an upper in 9mm or 45ACP.

As for pros and cons, I'll provide an objective list.

Pro

* Easier to aim
* More killing power
* More customizable
* Wider variety of loads
* Better for use as a bludgeon

Con

* Longer
* A lot more prone to overpenetration
* Pricier
* Harder to make jury friendly
* Easier to have control taken way

You are not the military, so you can use hunting rounds. You might want to modify your gun to have a slightly longer barrel, possibly 18", and a slightly lower twist rate, maybe to 1:7. That will get you better tumbling, fragmenting, and destabilization effects. Frangible rounds are often used for hunting. Varmint rounds are not a good idea, although I personally consider a 5.56 to be a varmint round. Admittedly, I'm a guy who advocates for larger calibers such as 7.62x51, but you have to consider practicality also.

I am a strong advocate of pistol caliber carbines for self defense, but I assume that you know what's best so I'll let you be.

 

[nathan]

I will always use handgun round s inside my house for SD. Frangible or not , those AR rounds can be hit or miss. Too much power will get it to the next door neighbor.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Don't be stupid, get some frangible ammo that won't put holes through your neighbors house/car/kid/wife/dog/whatever.

Frangible ammo is designed to reduce wear on shoothouse baffles and allow the use of rifles on steel plates at relatively close distances. Typically it is used for training purposes and is less reliable than traditional ammo. The other issue with it is that penetration in less substantial barriers like drywall/sheetrock can be inconsistent, while penetration in important things like mammals can be shallow.

Locally, I know of several law enforcement agencies who use frangible ammo in training; but use lightweight 40gr varmint loads when they want to reduce penetration in an actual incident. I don't know why they made that decision; but I am assuming there is a valid reason for it.

I live in the suburbs in a sheetrock/wood frame house with neighbors on 3 sides.

What is your external barrier on the house? Wood siding, vinyl siding, stucco, brick, etc? Where I live, most of the houses have brick siding, so a 55gr SP is not going to exit a house in anything but tiny pieces unless it goes through a window, and it will have better penetration than the 40gr varmint load which is going to fall about 4" short of the FBI-recommended MINIMUM penetration even in ideal circumstances.

The only issue with the 55gr SP is that you need to check the load you use for function in your rifle (which should go without saying). Many of those loads are designed as hunting rounds and lack a cannelure on the bullet and the aggressive feed on an AR can sometimes shove the bullets back in the case or cause other problems.

In addition to the links already provided, you might also want to look at:
.223 Drywall Penetration
Hornady TAP website (includes gel shots of each product)

 

[NG VI]

Mortablunt a high-speed, lightweight bullet not designed to be extremely robust is going to break up easily on even a pretty light barrier. Once it's broken up, the pieces lose speed very quickly and since the bullet as a whole was light to begin with, the pieces will be light enough that they are seriously unlikely to retain enough momentum to get through a second wall or cause truly grievous injury.


Sentence was way too long, sorry. Anyway, 5.56/.223 offers many, many choices that are basically ideal for use against people and fit the above description. 7.62x39mm, like the AK (with the horrendous and far from instinctive control layout they come with) is pretty much limited to three good loads- the Hornady Vmax, the Corbon JHP offering, and the Saspan 8N3. I don't know how the Vmax and Corbon bullets do against drywall, but they have significantly more mass than any .223 bullet, which means individual fragments are likely to retain more mass, increasing momentum/penetration, and they also start out six to nine hundred feet per second slower than the .223 loads, which puts less stress on them and makes them less likely to fragment at all.


There are reasons people here recommend the AR platform for defense, and not the AK. Just because they are both rifles doesn't make them the same.

 

[benEzra]

Amazing how you guys were giving me all sorts of admonishments when I brought up the idea of using an AK for HD. An AR round, even if it's Hornady, will carry through the bad guy, the wall, several other walls, and still be capable of killing. IMO, see if you can get an upper in 9mm or 45ACP.

55gr SP or JHP tends to penetrate less in both wallboard and ballistic gelatin than 9mm JHP or .45 ACP JHP.

As I mentioned in that other thread, a lot of people expressed concerns about penetration because they assumed you were talking about a 7.62x39mm AK, not a .223/5.56x45mm or a 5.45x39mm shooting good JHP or SP. A 7.62x39mm 124gr JHP has 2 1/4 times the mass of a 55gr .223 and is traveling far slower, so it is less likely to break up in a few sheets of wallboard or a lightly constructed exterior wall. I believe most 7.62x39mm JHP will penetrate a bit more than 9mm JHP, whereas .223 55gr JHP or SP will not.

7.62x39mm with decent JHP or SP can certainly be a pretty good choice in a brick house (and I've kept an AK in that role, loaded with 124gr Ulyanovsk 8M3 JHP), but 7.62x39mm JHP may exit a more lightly constructed home. That is much less likely with well-chosen .223 loads.

 

[briansmithwins]

Anything that will put a man down with a head or center torso hit is going to be a over penetration hazard.

That said, light jacketed rifle rounds do tend to fall apart when they hit even flimsy barriers, like sheetrock. They are the least over penetrating projectile that I'm aware of, not including small birdshot, which has its own issues.

BSW

 

[Cosmoline]

An AR round, even if it's Hornady, will carry through the bad guy, the wall, several other walls, and still be capable of killing.

Where's the ballistic gel test showing that? You may be thinking of AP.

 

[benEzra]

An AR round, even if it's Hornady, will carry through the bad guy, the wall, several other walls, and still be capable of killing.

Not the case, actually. Lightweight .223 JHP's are most often criticized for not penetrating *enough*, rather than too much.



Look at the above measurements. The 40gr JHP penetrates less than 6" in gelatin, much less than ideal but it might be a decent choice in an apartment setting. The T223A SP penetrates less than 8". Even the 55gr FMJ only penetrates 14.5", less than some handgun loads.

My own personal preference at the moment for indoor HD is the T223E load, 11.25" in gelatin and still fragile enough to fragment fairly readily in wallboard.

 

[againstthagrane]

Amazing how you guys were giving me all sorts of admonishments when I brought up the idea of using an AK for HD. An AR round, even if it's Hornady, will carry through the bad guy, the wall, several other walls, and still be capable of killing. IMO, see if you can get an upper in 9mm or 45ACP.

you have no idea what you're talking about and you need to stop spreading misinformation online. be a part of the solution and do some research before you give "advice" that could end up hurting people.

 

[againstthagrane]

I use the 64 grain Winchester Power Point in .223 for everything in the AR. Some folks have an "indoor" magazine loaded with 55 grain varmint type bullets and an "outdoor" magazine loaded with a 60 grain or heavier bonded type bullet. I find that the 64 grain Power Point is a good all around, loose bullets are available for handloading, and it also does a great job on deer and hogs .

Just my .02,
LeonCar

that's exactly what i have loaded up as well. i'm like barney fife right now though as i only have one mag loaded. they're just so darn expensive (i don't reload yet).

 

[mortablunt]

you have no idea what you're talking about and you need to stop spreading misinformation online. be a part of the solution and do some research before you give "advice" that could end up hurting people.

Not trolling here, but I did do the research. I spent a nice half afternoon over at the Box O Truth reading up on this stuff, considering HD ammo, weapons, and loads. The 5.56 loadings that will not penetrate deeply through walls are the varmint type rounds. For the other sorts, such as FMJ and JHP, they have a strong tendency to go through things regardless. At one site I looked this stuff up (http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html), the loads that did not penetrate very deeply were the 5.56 loads that were pretty much meant for varmints. The other rounds, which were in specs like JHP and FMJ, did go through pretty far reliably.
I recommended a pistol caliber AR upper is because the man has an AR, likes it, his .wife can use it, and he has faith in the weapon. The 5.56 rounds suggested that won't plough through walls also lack penetration in ballistics tests, which are used by the FBI to determine round viability for self defense. The 5.56 rounds which do penetrate deeply enough to be FBI recommended are also going to go through bad guys, walls, and anything else in the way. The pistol caliber conversions will also do that. However, pistol rounds have drastically lower energy, so even if there is an accidental over penetration hit on a bystander, the damage is reduced. Also, the length of an AR's barrel will add velocity and therefore energy to the pistol bullets. It is pretty much a guarantee that any round which can reliably stop a man can do the same after going through walls. The pistol caliber just reduces the damage in case of a catastrophe.

 

[benEzra]

As far as I am aware, the Box o'Truth site has not tested much .223 JHP, either in gelatin or in drywall with realistic wall spacing; I have seen a FMJ test on that site but IIRC they used closely spaced drywall panels (which makes a big difference with high-velocity fragmenting rounds. Testing that I *have* seen shows midweight .223 JHP and SP fragmenting in 2 or 3 interior walls, and I have an article from Police Marksman that includes a wall penetration study of .223 vs. 9mm, .40 S&W, and 12-gauge; midweight .223 was less lethal on the back side of even a single wall than .40 S&W JHP, as I recall. The reason is that a low-velocity .40 S&W JHP plugs and stays together through the wall,whereas the much lighter, faster, and longer .22 caliber bullet was yawing and starting to fragment. I'll see if I can dig it up and scan it.

The FBI penetration recommendations do favor deeper-penetrating rounds (probably more than would be needed for non-LEO HD use), but if you look at the gelatin tests above, several .223 JHP loads do satisfy the FBI depth-of-penetration criteria while still offering equivalent or less wall penetration than 9mm JHP.

Here's a demonstration of .223 JHP/SP fragmentation in wallboard, and some of those rounds (not the 40's) do have adequate penetration in gelatin:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

FWIW, I'm pretty sure Winchester Ranger 55gr SP is not a varmint round; Ranger is their LE and defensive line. The 64-grain Power Point load is *definitely* not a varmint round.

That's not to say pistol-caliber carbines are bad choices (they're fine choices), but 9mm JHP doesn't penetrate any less in building materials than .223 JHP/SP does unless your house is made of steel plate.