Mixed Feelings About The New S&W Guns...

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**If you want a gun with out a lock, buy a gun with out a lock. For you revolver guys, good luck.**



I think this is a big part of why S&W stays in the spotlight. In the handgun market,there's a lot of choices.A no-lock is easy to buy. In the new DA revolver market, we've got Smith and Ruger. If you don't like a Ruger for whatever reason, you're up the creek on getting a new lockless da revolver.


By the way Correia, the new Remingtons don't have the lock. Sounds like a reason to buy another.;)
 
So what you are saying is, S&W is admitting that the lock may malfunction. If there were no chance of a malfunction then it would be sold to the Police with the lock. I guess S&W doesn't care if the lock ends up getting someone killed because it malfunctioned since we are just normal people but want to make sure no LEO's die because they would lose their business.

Sorry man, my life and that of my family is just as important as that of a LEO.
 
You know what *I* don't understand? Why people still fall for the old fallacy that complaining about things on the internet ever changes anything.

Have any of you guys written Smith & Wesson? I hear a lot of "shoving down our throats" and references to S&W "peeing" on people, yadda yadda yadda. Again, this hatred is borderline pathological, especially since it's obvious that S&W isn't the only gun maker doing this, nor were they the first.

All I ask is that in future, when a poster comes to the revolver forum to talk about the new gun he bought, it'd be nice if there weren't half a dozen "I won't buy a gun with a lock!" posts that contribute nothing to the discussion. Especially since it seems that for at least a few folks, it's more of an aesthetics thing than anything else.

I'll say it again. Get a campaign going. Start lobbying Smith & Wesson. If there's enough market interest, they will probably do runs of no-lock guns.
 
By the way Correia, the new Remingtons don't have the lock. Sounds like a reason to buy another.
Thank goodness. I could turn the J-lock on by bumping it with my trigger finger.
 
Nightcrawler,
Except for that ugly hole in the side of both my revolvers I had no problem with the lock until today when I found out that S&W made the lock optional on their M&P pistols. That is wrong in so many ways. If the lock is good and the lock is safe then there is no reason to make it optional for LEO's. IMHO of course.

Oh, and yes, I wrote S&W just after I read the post informing me that the M&P pistol had an optional internal lock. (on my best behavior of course)
 
The lock doesn't really bother me , it is the lack of machined barrels,MIM every where and spotty QC. :fire:
I love my SW1911pd, I have a case hardened Model 40 on order (no lock) and my 1999 242 and 296 (pre lock) are really nice, sleeved barrels and all!
 
QUOTE:
**Thank goodness. I could turn the J-lock on by bumping it with my trigger finger.**


Yep, my first run-in with an internal lock was on a youth 870 I got for my wife. Didn't think anything about the lock at the time, until I heard it could be activated with your fingers. Well, stupid me, I had to try. It worked. I'm pretty sure I invented some new words while tearing the house apart looking for the key.:banghead:
 
Dont want it, dont buy it.

I'm getting ready to buy my first revolver, and I dont care if it has a lock or not. With all the intellect on this forum, if it was SO bad you'd think somone could figure out a "stand in" dummy part.

You guys want some cheese with all that wine?
 
Lock failures are well documented on www.smith-wessonforum.com.
I wouldn't touch a Smith revolver with a lock if you payed me.

Hey Deanimator, how did you make out with that scratched barrel?
Did S&W find you a 30 year old one and completely refinnish your gun??

I recently aquired a 22-4, 4 inch barrel, blued finnish and its very very nice. Excellent trigger fabulous bluing, and very accurate. But it does have the lock. I own a number of S&W revolvers, ranging from 1946 to 2006 manufacture, S&W has always made some Friday Guns. You couldnt pay me to buy a new Ruger Double action revolver. I have a Redhawk and an Sp101 and neither are anything special, in fact since I never shoot either of them, due to their lousy ergonomics and horrible triggers, and the fact that when I lightened the spring in my redhawk .44 mag to 14 lbs with a wolf kit to get rid of its 10lb single action trigger pull, It would click 6 times in double action and not fire a single cartridge, not a gun I would ever carry in the field.

All of my smiths come from the factory with a very good trigger pull and they can be lightened further and still fire every cartridge in double action. Something Rugers cant do.
 
This is silly.

You have a screwdriver? The lock comes out in 30 seconds. Just take it out! People seem to have no problem buying SA 1911s and removing ILS from them, why is this any different with Smith revolvers? All my Smiths have the locking mechanism in a baggie in the box the gun came in. I can't figure out the big deal. It's not even hard to put back in for warrantee work!
People complain about the S&W magazine disconnect, too, but will take one out of a HiPower in an instant. It comes right out of the Smith.
I think people like making life hard for themselves. Seriously, the revolver lock is a part that can be removed without sacrificing ANYTHING, so take it out! You can work one of them screwdrivers, can't you?
Steve
 
I don't even own a DA revolver. That disclaimer aside, I doubt I'd stress over the S&W lock. If it eventually came to bother me, it'd join the Kimber type II parts and BHP disconnect parts in a jar I keep on top of the safe.

Nevertheless, doesn't Colt get a couple hundred dollar premium for omitting parts from their model 80? I'm not sure about this but the WW1 and model 70s seem to get a pretty stout extra over the more pedestrian offering.

If I'm not too terribly mistaken on the Colt pricing, it might seem that S&W is missing an opportunity: The Performance Center could simply offer "retro" firearms in the manner of Colt's 1911s. Perhaps charge 200.00 for a lockless sideplate.

Might be worth it if even 10% of those stridently belly-aching about the lock coughed up the 200.00. Perhaps offer up an option to omit MIM for another 150.00....

Come to think of it, I might even go for a lockless S&W just for grins. I'd let 'em keep the MIM, but that's just me.
 
Ya got an interesting idea, but if they jack up the price too much a potential buyer can buy the real thing for less. On many occasions I've seen the original gun in common models selling for substantially less then the MSRP on a new one, with both being in about the same condition. I can live with MIM lockwork and do something about the lock, but why bother if what I perceive to be a better gun is available for less money?

Of course the way things are going I may not be able to get those older guns for less... :evil: :cuss:
 
Good point. The Colt WW1 1911, even with a substantial bump in price, is still less than a real WW1 issue. I don't know where the pricing falls on the "new vs old" model 70 but they're likely not contending with a supply pool of original model 70s as large as S&W's lockless supply pool.

But, whether S&W lockless or original Colt '70, the used supply will dry up sooner or later. At some point the olde time sideplate should turn into a profit center - for somebody.
 
Hey Deanimator, how did you make out with that scratched barrel?
Did S&W find you a 30 year old one and completely refinnish your gun??
I found a barrel which they installed.

There is a tentative deal for them to reblue the gun. I had to use a barrel with moderate finish wear, since there aren't ANY unused 4" 29-2 barrels out there that I've seen.

Any idea of what their current refinish capabilities are?

Somebody posted elsewhere that they could not do high gloss blue until further notice. Then somebody posted that they couldn't do blueing AT ALL until further notice.

The other day, I saw a post that their process has changed and now the finish is "black" rather than blue. So far I haven't gotten a definitive answer from any recent customers of their refinishing work.
 
I guess I grew up a realist and a gambler. I have both a pre-lock 686 and a post lock XVR. Even tho I use them for hunting and target shooting and not SD, I'm wondering for those that do what are the odds of one accidently locking up when you're being assaulted? Unless you're a cop or a soldier the odds of most of us being accosted and having to use a gun in self defense must be similar to winning the lottery.... and then to put the odds of a S&W lock malfunctioning at the EXACT same time is what.....astronomical? Probably pretty close to gettin hit by a meteorite. I know, for some of you, any risk is not worth taking, so you best stay inside so as you don't get hit. It will give you more time to trash and burst the balloons of the excited new S&W buyers that post here, because they chose a gun with a IL.

For all the millions of IL S&W's out there there has been only a few documented cases of lock failure....and was it lock failure or user error?

Colt don't make any real revolvers anymore and to me, Rugers are just plain fugly, and the one I did own beat the hell out of me. I guess I'll play the odds and take my chances with a S&W.
 
For all the millions of IL S&W's out there there has been only a few documented cases of lock failure....and was it lock failure or user error?
THOROUGHLY documented on smith-wessonforum.

The only "user error" was buying a Smith revolver with an internal lock.

I've bought four vintage S&W revolvers without locks in the last twelve months. My life's worth too much to me to endanger it by relying on something that's both ugly and documented to fail in ways sometimes requiring the services of a gunsmith.
 
THOROUGHLY documented on smith-wessonforum.

yeah, I go there too. Again.... what is the total percentage of failures to guns sold? Is it any higher that any other lock-up caused by other factors, even in non S&W guns? Any documented cases that it happened at the exact same time as the gun was being used for self defense? Most folks should worry more about how they'll even hit the perk under stress than whether the lock will fail


I've bought four vintage S&W revolvers without locks in the last twelve months. My life's worth too much to me to endanger it by relying on something that's both ugly and documented to fail in ways sometimes requiring the services of a gunsmith.


iffn you're a LEO or Military I understand.......other than that, odds are you'll shoot yourself or someone else you know by accident before an internal lock would fail on you during a self defense confrontation. But hey, this is America and we all are entitled to our opinions.
 
iffn you're a LEO or Military I understand.......other than that, odds are you'll shoot yourself or someone else you know by accident before an internal lock would fail on you during a self defense confrontation. But hey, this is America and we all are entitled to our opinions.
A number of neo-Nazis don't like my opinions. It's apparently why they've repeatedly threatened to murder me. I'm neither a cop nor any longer in the military. That doesn't seem to have made any difference.

If I need a gun, I'm going to need it a lot and right away. I don't want a gun I can't trust. I trust my 3" S&W Model 65 and my Glock 19. I'll NEVER trust an IL Smith.
 
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Millions of lockers ????

If your gonna play the odds, you might want to double check your numbers.

you're right 454c, me bad. I meant to say for all the millions and millions of rounds fired thru IL S&W's.
 
I too had the same dilemma facing me... new Smith with lock... or old. Actually... no contest. I bought a terrific used J-Frame that I am completely happy with... and I won't look back. Sorry... but I like my guns simple and reliable. Nothing beats an old Smith.
 
Buy older ones

I bought a brand new S&W 351pd, at 5 yds it was high and right for all 8. I bought an old 10-4 3" S&W from 1962, all 6 in 3/4" group at the 7yd line I gave the new one away. Nuff said.
 
Correia, Great post!

Remington Quality sorry guys for the amount of NEW guns I have had to send back to Remington, I am not stocking any Remington product anymore. Savage rifles all the way. Hope I can find a shotgun manufacture as good.
 
Change Is Inevitable

I'm a brand spankin' newbie here at THR, so before I get to the topic at hand, I think it's only appropriate for me to begin by extending a big, "Hi, everybody! Glad to meet ya!"

For my first post here at THR, I'm not going to jump into this thread and try to persuade anybody with a passionate presentation of my personal thoughts, opinions, and conclusions on this topic. Rather, I'd simply like to offer a few things to think about.

1.)I am a devout fan, and modest collector, of S&W pistols, primarily revolvers, but I have a couple autoloaders, too. I only own 1 stainless steel model, the rest being about a 70/30 mix of blue and nickel. Less than 10% of my collection was manufactured post-'83, when they discontinued pinning and counterboring. My newest specimen was built in 1989, my oldest in 1920.

2.) "Profit" is not a bad thing; it is what drives a sound economy.

3.) I was deeply disappointed when S&W announced the integral lock, not so much because of the change to the guns themselves, but primarily because what this change says about the political/litigious climate in our country.

4.) Every successful manufacturer in existence is continually looking for new ways to reduce production costs, while maintaining the quality at a level that is acceptable to the consumer market.

5.) In 1955, Smith eliminated the "5th" screw.

6.) In 1961, Smith eliminated the "4th" screw.

7.) In 1968, Smith eliminated the Diamond from their checkered grips.

8.) In 1982, Smith discontinued pinning barrels, and counterboring chambers on magnum caliber revolvers.

9.) In 1997, Smith moved firing pins from the hammer to the frame, and began using MIM to build certain parts.

10.) In 2002, Smith added integral locking mechanisms.

Also during this period of time...

11.) New Government regulations required auto manufacturers to install seatbelts in all new passenger vehicles.

12.) New Government regulations required licensed firearms dealers to keep detailed records of all firearm sales.

13.) New Government regulations outlawed mailorder firearm sales.

14.) New Government regulations required tobacco companies to place warning labels on cigarette packages.

15.) The Government discontinued minting coins from silver.

16.) In less than 5 decades, the product label "Made In Japan" shed the well-deserved stigma of being cheap junk, to become widely accepted as a sign of premium quality.

17.) The quality of education in U.S. public schools has deteriorated to an abyssmal level, and continues to decline, despite incredible ongoing advances in communication and information technologies.

And the list could go on and on and on...

Change is inevitable. Nothing remains the same. I'm not going to freak out over a gun lock.

OutAtTheEdge
 
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