Mixed vs Sorted Brass in 9mm "Target"

[Shrinkmd]

I was looking at my old thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=619769 about 38 Special, and I recently did some testing with some new ammo I made up on my 1050. I am using Redding Competition Pro dies, CCI SP, Bullseye, Dardas 126gr LSWC bullets, and I shot them through an M&P9c and my S&W 952. I ran 3.8 gr and 4.0 gr loads.

Interesting results. I shot 25 round sample sizes. In the M&P9c everything had higher SD, (11.5 vs 9.5 for FC headstamp), and 11.6 vs 9.6 for Mixed headstamp. I guess these aren't likely to be significant unless you're shooting 50yd bullseye, which I'm not. And dropping the powder to the 3.8 gr load lowered velocity from 1116 to 1082, but dropped the SD from 9.5 to 8.8.

Since I don't have a Ransom rest set up to test at 50 yds, it's unclear if any of these actually shot better on target than the others.

My conclusions so far:
1) I guess it doesn't really matter to sort by headstamp as long as I can run them all through the reloading machine. The 1050 swaged, sized, and did it's best, so no problems there.
2) Shooting a better gun gets better results
3) Bullseye powder meters and shoots well, and is worth wiping the extra filth off

Am I missing anything?

 

[HEAVY METAL 1]

I develop a load using a single type (headstamp) of brass for consistency then when an accurate loading is found I load up w/o regard to headstamp. Nearly all my handgun rounds are < max charge levels so I don't worry about going over. I do sort when I shoot however as different brass yields different POI for me.

 

[Wildbillz]

I don't think I would be able to tell the difference in a group where I had sorted the brass by make. I could see it for a precision rifle I guess but a 9mm pistol? I don't think it would be worth the effort. I am not that good of a shot.

WB

 

[Walkalong]

Option 2 or option 3.

I only wish I could shoot well enough to tell the difference.

 

[LiveLife]

Bullseye, Dardas 126gr LSWC bullets ... 3.8 gr and 4.0 gr load ...

dropping the powder to the 3.8 gr load lowered velocity from 1116 to 1082, but dropped the SD from 9.5 to 8.8.

Am I missing anything?

Since you got reduction of SD from 4.0 gr to 3.8 gr, I would try 3.6 gr next. If you look at the comparison picture of RN/SWC, the flat based SWC has substantially longer bullet base that seats much deeper than bevel based RN bullet and probably builds chamber pressures better and more consistently.

When I did my Dardas/Missouri SWC bullet comparison to RN bullet, I lowered my typical RN powder charge by .2 gr and the SWC loads did better. For Berry's 124 gr HBRN-TP bullet testing with Bullseye (also with longer bullet base than regular RN) , I used 3.5 gr/3.8 gr and 3.5 gr reliably cycled the slide and produced good accuracy and now I suggest 3.6 gr as start charge - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7266869#post7266869

 

[LiveLife]

As to OP of sorting cases by head stamp. With mixed range brass with possibly varied number of reloadings, even with the same head stamp, the condition of brass may vary to produce different amount of neck tension/bullet setback. This will contribute to larger SD numbers.

I think you will see lower SD numbers from verified-once fired brass vs mixed range brass with unknown number of firings. But this is not practical as after the match, even your once-fired brass will become mixed range brass when you pick them up with other brass.

If you are interested in doing further testing, sort your mixed range brass with different head stamp by bullet setback (feed/chamber from magazine by releasing the slide without riding). Take the rounds with no or minimal bullet setback and see if they lower your SD number further. But the SWC bullets' bases are so substantial, I usually don't get any bullet setback so this may be more applicable to RN lead and jacketed/plated bullet loads. Just a thought.

 

[Rule3]

As to OP of sorting cases by head stamp. With mixed range brass with possibly varied number of reloadings, even with the same head stamp, the condition of brass may vary to produce different amount of neck tension/bullet setback. This will contribute to larger SD numbers.

I think you will see lower SD numbers from verified-once fired brass vs mixed range brass with unknown number of firings. But this is not practical as after the match, even your once-fired brass will become mixed range brass when you pick them up with other brass.

If you are interested in doing further testing, sort your mixed range brass with different head stamp by bullet setback (feed/chamber from magazine by releasing the slide without riding). Take the rounds with no or minimal bullet setback and see if they lower your SD number further. But the SWC bullets' bases are so substantial, I usually don't get any bullet setback so this may be more applicable to RN lead and jacketed/plated bullet loads. Just a thought.

^^^^^^

This. To be exactly exact, the brass should be from the same lot and of course be sure to measure each on and trim if necessary

No, I do not trim handgun brass.

If I was shooting for money or medals I would do a lot of things different, Clean primer pockets and de burr flash holes. With a completion CZ 75 I use mixed brass and shoot as well as I can not doing anything extra.

 

[LiveLife]

How do you sort brass for 9mm "Target" loads?

I have plenty of brass which is once fired (so says TJ Conevera, anyway)

But if you are shooting matches, it won't be long before all your brass becomes mixed range brass. That's why I stopped fussing over once-fired brass for USPSA match loads. And my testing really did not show significant enough differences for same head stamp vs mixed head stamp. I think greater differences in measurable accuracy will come from more consistent bullets, powder charges and reloading techniques.

And we've all heard that improved ES and SD don't necessarily translate into improved accuracy, which is what we're after.

In pistols, some loads with big ES & SD numbers shoot great at close range, while some with better numbers do not. Numbers are not everything

I think ultimately the holes on target will verify our theories. Even though you don't have a Ransom rest, I think more accurate loads will produce smaller and consistent shot groups. To reduce the factor of the shooter, I normally range test at closer distances of 10-15 yards off sand bags/pistol rest to verify "practical" accuracy of my loads.

It will be interesting what your test results show. So would you consider testing some at 3.6 gr of Bullseye with the 126 gr SWC bullets?

 

[1John1:9]

Since I started reloading 1 year ago, I have had about 600 cases comprised of Aguila, Federal, Blazer, Fiocchi and some nickel plated Speer and Federal.

I have reloaded them about 10 times now and haven't been sorting them. I think I might start sorting them in future. I noticed that I get different OALs with certain loads/ bullets. I bought 500 Starline cases 7 months ago, and haven't used one yet.

I love reloading.

 

[LiveLife]

I have reloaded them about 10 times now and haven't been sorting them. I think I might start sorting them in future. I noticed that I get different OALs with certain loads/ bullets.

The variation in OALs you are getting may be from varying bullet nose shapes/profiles and seating stem shape. If you are loading on a progressive press, you can get OAL variations from shell plate deflection.

That's why for my match loads, I used more consistent quality bullets and pre-sized/hand primed cases for my progressive loading. Minimal force required to just flare the case neck/powder charge and seat/taper crimp the bullets resulted in less OAL variations and made progressive reloading buttery smooth/effortless.

If you are looking at accuracy, I think more consistent bullet seat depth plays an important role. If you are looking for accuracy with lead bullets, I think reducing high pressure gas leakage around the bullet plays another important role so using the longest working OAL will be crucial.

 

[Rule3]

Chronograph statistics are just that. Numbers.
As was discussed in another thread the bottom line is how accurate the loads are. It depends on what accuracy or competition you are shooting.

Please do not take this wrong, but a SW MP 9mm will not be as accurate as a lot or other guns. I love and shoot many SW revolvers which is whole different ballgame. I had and sold a MP 45, it went back to the Motherland as it shot patterns not groups. Replaced the barrel, still just combat accurate. Fine guns for what they are but without a lot of upgrades they are not a "target gun.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I can easily tell sorted vs non-sorted in my sig 210's. I have come to conclude that if you don't sort your brass or at least have one make that you use for target loads, you probably don't have a good enough gun to tell the difference.

If you not that the guys that sort the brass tend to shoot the custom 1911's, 210's or similar quality target pieces and tend to notice the accuracy issues of mixed brass.

I would also comment that it is somewhat unique to 9mm. 45 acp does not need the sorting that much and 38 special seems to matter more the case length. I think the 9mm in a small case with difference size of powder capacity adds up to the accuracy issues.

 

[Walkalong]

I would also comment that it is somewhat unique to 9mm. 45 acp does not need the sorting that much

I certainly agree with that. .45 isn't as picky in a lot of ways. I am sure sorted 9MM cases would shoot better in the long run, I just can't shoot well enough to prove it, and since my mixed brass 9MM loads can hit 12" steel at 100 yards as long as I don't mess it up, I am happy enough with it.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Hmm, food for thought. Sorting is a huge pain, but since I'm not competing (maybe someday) at least I can keep them sorted once shot. In theory the 952 should be able to wring a little extra accuracy out of whatever I'm shooting. I was thinking I could make up some batches of 100 of each common headstamp, like FC, WIN, Speer/Blazer, CBC, and R-P, as well as a comparison mixed batch of the RWS, Herters, Geco, NNY, and other less common. I don't have enough PMC to bother keeping them separate.

Maybe I could figure out which one shoots most consistently in the gun, and just sort those out and mix the rest? I have a bag and a 50yd range to use for testing. I think I have some old Starline around as well from some old factory ammo testing. It feels like some sort of sin to *buy* 9mm brass, but then I could mix everything else and not sweat it.

It would be funny if some off brand ended up being the most consistent, ya never know.

 

[LeonCarr]

IME there are wide variations in dimensions and weights in 9mm cases.

You can feel the differences when resizing, when flaring case mouths, and when seating and taper crimping. With cases sorted by headstamp there will be a lot less variation. In close range shooting like USPSA or IDPA you won't see much difference, but you will at 50 yards. I did an experiment with sorted vs. non-sorted, and the sorted produced 10 shot groups 3 inches tighter at 50 yards. Helps when that USPSA match director has a course of fire with 50 yard Poppers .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[LiveLife]

I am sure sorted 9MM cases would shoot better in the long run, I just can't shoot well enough to prove it, and since my mixed brass 9MM loads can hit 12" steel at 100 yards as long as I don't mess it up, I am happy enough with it.

When I did the Berry's 124 gr HBRN-TP tests and produced 1.5" shot groups at 15 yards, they were done with mixed head stamp range brass with unknown reload history. I think that's good enough for me to shoot a USPSA match stage with them anyday - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7266869#post7266869

It would be funny if some off brand ended up being the most consistent, ya never know.

I just know I am gonna get tarred and feathered for this post < putting on flame suit >

For years, based on forum posts that spoke poorly of A-MERC head stamp cases, I culled them and kept them separate. When I had enough collected, I thought, "Hey, maybe I should do a range test with them to see how bad they truly are."

So I loaded up some reference loads I knew were accurate in 9mm/40S&W/45ACP and went to the range. Guess what? To my surprise, the A-MERC case loads performed well.

I know, I know. Their flash holes may often not be centered and case dimensions may not be as consistent but A-MERC cases I examined the last couple of years were not as bad as ones I seen 10-15 years ago. Perhaps their QC improved over the years?

OK, flame away. < ducking for cover >

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Why is sorting so hard? I make up a batch with mixed brass and then sit in front of the tv with many different MTM boxes and just sit and sort them out. It allows me to inspect the final product and dump them in with their like kind.

I find if I want accuracy though, I sort at the press. I decide say I am going to do Starline and I just check every piece of brass I pick up and then throw the rest into a folgers can until they are all sorted. Like brass the press runs smoother and is more consistent. Unsorted brass has softer, harder and is less consistent threw the press.

When I was last shooting my 210-5 at the berm at about 75 yrds, I was going after clay pigeons and with sorted brass I could hit them quite consistently. With mixed brass it was more rare.

 

[Laphroaig]

I just started shooting bulleye comp with my 45 2 summers ago. I'm not a good pistol shot, so I don't figure sorting will do me much good. I am seeing a little improvement though, so there is hope.

Laphroaig

 

[Kosh75287]

The TRUE answer DEFINITELY is.... It depends...

If I'm putting together 9x19 for informal stuff (and so far, that's ALL I've ever made), and the charge weight is 7% to 10% under max, then I'll sort if convenient, and not sort, if it isn't. I know that even very small differences in L.O.A. can substantially alter chamber pressures by varying the internal volume of the round. I would think that the brass of various manufacturers may have different case wall thicknesses, and have the same effect (if perhaps not as pronounced an effect) as varying the L.O.A.
Recall that the internal dimensions for the .45 ACP (in addition to being larger, thus more forgiving) are fairly uniform across the spectrum of ammo makers. For 9x19, it seems, there's a different spec for each manufacturer, or at least from one country of manufacturer to another.

Bottom line, the closer one gets to max charges, the more important it is to keep the internal volume consistent.


As with other aspects of life, one is well advised to think carefully when choosing one's battles and allocating one's labors.

 

[LiveLife]

WAIT WAIT!

I think many posters missed the original premise of this thread ... it was not about obtaining "absolute 50 yard bullseye match accuracy" but whether mixed vs sorted brass will produce measurable difference in SD numbers shot from M&P9c and S&W 952.

Here's what OP posted:

I guess these aren't likely to be significant unless you're shooting 50yd bullseye, which I'm not.

OP is using Bullseye powder with Dardas 126gr LSWC bullets and so far tested 3.8 gr and 4.0 gr loads with M&P9c and S&W 952. And my posts have been specific to the OP's original premise. As Walkalong posted, and I concur that mixed vs sorted brass probably won't show much difference with the test setup in SD difference, let alone difference in shot group sizes as OP is not using a Ransom rest, but shooting 25 yards off-hand on sand bag or pistol rest.

The only thing OP did find measurable was that 4.0 gr load produced 11.5/11.6 SD (Federal vs mixed) from M&P9c and 9.5/9.6 SD (Federal vs mixed) for S&W952. And 3.8 gr load dropped the SD from 9.5 to 8.8 (I am guessing M&P9c?). Since OP experienced lower SD with the 3.8 gr powder charge compared to 4.0 gr, I suggested OP try 3.6 gr because flat base of substantial bullet base of Dardas 126 gr SWC gets seated much deeper in the case neck.

I would agree that for 50 yard bullseye match shooting using better pistols will result smaller shot groups with same head stamp/same lot vs mixed head stamp cases. But so far, OP is not measuring significant difference in SD numbers between sorted Federal head stamp vs mixed head stamp.

Am I missing anything?

 

[Rule3]

, CCI SP, Bullseye, Dardas 126gr LSWC bullets, and I shot them through an M&P9c and my S&W 952. I ran 3.8 gr and 4.0 gr loads.

Interesting results. I shot 25 round sample sizes. In the M&P9c everything had higher SD, (11.5 vs 9.5 for FC headstamp), and 11.6 vs 9.6 for Mixed headstamp. I guess these aren't likely to be significant unless you're shooting 50yd bullseye, which I'm not. And dropping the powder to the 3.8 gr load lowered velocity from 1116 to 1082, but dropped the SD from 9.5 to 8.8.

Since I don't have a Ransom rest set up to test at 50 yds, it's unclear if any of these actually shot better on target than the others.

My conclusions so far:
1) I guess it doesn't really matter to sort by headstamp as long as I can run them all through the reloading machine. The 1050 swaged, sized, and did it's best, so no problems there.
2) Shooting a better gun gets better results
3) Bullseye powder meters and shoots well, and is worth wiping the extra filth off

Am I missing anything?

bds:

WAIT WAIT!

I think many posters missed the original premise of this thread ... it was not about obtaining "absolute 50 yard bullseye match accuracy" but whether mixed vs sorted brass will produce measurable difference in SD numbers shot from M&P9c and S&W 952.

Well to be honest it's kind of confusing.

There are two guns involved, different headstamps. mention of a Ransom rest which would be just accuracy) Of course the press model which has no bearing Different powders, Is the difference in SD between the two guns VS Federal and Mixed.

So is the question variances in SD, accuracy or what?? The difference of SD between 9.5 and 11.5 is statistically insignificant.

So what is the question???

As mention SD relt means nothing on a small sample and the bottom line is what loads are more accurate.??

 

[LiveLife]

Rule3, yes the SD difference between sorted (Federal) vs mixed head stamp and only one powder (Bullseye) was tested.

OP can correct me if I am incorrect but the actual SD measured for 4.0 gr powder charge loads were:

M&P9c - 11.5 with Federal cases and 11.6 with mixed cases
S&W 952 - 9.5 with Federal cases and 9.6 with mixed cases

IMO, these small differences are insignificant and ultimately, holes on target will verify which loads are more accurate. My original response was to test/include 3.6 gr charge of Bullseye as 3.8 gr lowered SD from 9.5 down to 8.8.

 

[Walkalong]

it was not about obtaining "absolute 50 yard bullseye match accuracy" but whether mixed vs sorted brass will produce measurable difference in SD numbers shot from M&P9c and S&W 952.

When I test velocities in different 9MMs, my EMP with its tight chamber always gives the best ES & SD numbers. Different guns/barrels can give different results. It only makes sense that mixed 9MM cases, which vary so greatly brand to brand, would be more erratic as far as numbers, from sorted cases. Does it matter/make a difference on target is the question. No one watching will say, wow, those were great ES & SD numbers flying downrange.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I have to agree that my EMP does give the best ES/SD numbers also. It is actually a tighter chamber than my 210-6. I think the short barrel, tight chamber and stiff barrel all contribute to those numbers.

Your fundamental premise though is the key. If you are trying for best accuracy, it is hard to believe that mixing various types of brass will do as well as sorting them out.

I would come back to the easier solution to the question. Go to the range and try it. Put a couple of boxes of ammo on paper. Then mix some boxes together and do it again. I suggest you use much larger group sizes to really see the difference. I normally put 50 shots on each sheet of paper so I can see true target dispersion vs. occasionally lucky groups.

 

[Walkalong]

I have no doubt that an occasional case will give me a semi bad shot up close or a miss at long range, but I simply got tired of sorting cases, am not betting my life on them, and not shooting Bullseye (Not good enough), but just having fun.

I still have a box of 1500 all FC primed 9MM brass I sorted out back when I used sorted cases. I have actually considered scrapping my batch of mixed 9MM cases and use the FC cases. But heck, then I would have to check the headstamp every time I pick up brass and put it in my fired brass bin, and that's a lot like work. Funny, I don't mind trimming/chamfering/deburring other caliber cases, but with 9MM and .45 ACP, I just quit worrying with it.

Every time I look at that box of sorted and primed brass, I think I will go back to using sorted, but, so far, I have been too lazy. Maybe when I finally wear this mixed batch enough to scrap it.

Maybe, but I I bet 99% of my bad or missed shots are 100% me, and not a case that did not match the last one. Yep, all me.