Mobile Infantry reporting for duty

[orangelo]

http://www.livescience.com/technology/060928_power_suit.html

That one is designed to help move hospital patients. But the DOD eggheads at Project Manager Soldier Weapons is working on one with armor and can carry a portable version of the XM307 25mm/.50BMG crew served weapon.

Hope it gets finished in time to use on the jihadis.

 

[yorick]

Hope it gets finished in time to use on the hajis.

Are you kidding?

When you're 'war' is against an idea - we're pretty much looking at well into the next century or three on this conflict....

 

[El Tejon]

Maybe the First Terran War or the Final War on the Bugs?

 

[ozwyn]

I would mark this as both good news and bad news.

good news - potential new weapon system to make our troops a heck of a lot more dangerous in the field and probably a lot better protected

bad news - a few years after the military gets it, other agencies will probably be seen using them in JBT tactics against civilians. Excessive force will find whole new meaning when highly mobile swat/atf units who are virtually immune to any civilian rifle rounds do high speed raids into the wrong houses with this kind of armament. Imagine the kind of AD type events from those raids with the kind of weapons suggested.... could make ruby ridge or waco type events look like a comedy special.

but that's my cynical and pessimistic .02 (would LOVE to be wrong on this)

 

[nbkky71]

DARPA has been working on a powered exoskeleton since 2000/2001.

I like the power-lifter exoskeletons from Aliens myself...

 

[quatin]

If you read the sponsors who do the research fo DARPA (stanford is one i think) they are decades away from actually implementing a exoskeleton viable for use. This was just a proof of concept.

Much like the "missile defense system" that the white house is so keen on.

 

[mdao]

bad news - a few years after the military gets it, other agencies will probably be seen using them in JBT tactics against civilians. Excessive force will find whole new meaning when highly mobile swat/atf units who are virtually immune to any civilian rifle rounds do high speed raids into the wrong houses with this kind of armament. Imagine the kind of AD type events from those raids with the kind of weapons suggested.... could make ruby ridge or waco type events look like a comedy special.

I can see it being used by LEOs and other TLA agencies long before the military uses them. The main issue with the suits in military usage will be power storage. There's currently no good way of storing enough energy in the suits for sustained operations, nor is there a good way to recharge the suits. SWAT style raids are much shorter, and current battery technology can easily keep the suit running for 30 minutes or more. That's more than long enough for a SWAT style raid.

This sort of thing would be easily doable within 5 years and will likely revolutionize SWAT tactics.

 

[Gifted]

Another question is response time. If you need to duck from a grenade, you'll want to do it NOW, not .25 seconds from now when the drive chain catches up.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Of course you realize that one armor-peircing round through the CPU and the thing becomes a steel cage. I can imagine all that equipment is heavy and as soon as a powered suit becomes an un-powered suit that soldier is in a world of hurt.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Personally I prefer "Muhammaden Rabble" it has a more 19th century ring to it.

but yes, we should probablely edit out the ethnic slurs or we'll have Art's Grandma on our ***

 

[orangelo]

fixed for our politically correct liberal terrorist loving friends

 

[tellner]

Y'know orange, I could probably come up with a few choice things about your deeply held beliefs, religion, family and the self-important delusional dungheap of a state that you live in that would put you on the edge of physical violence in under a minute. It's not that difficult. Is it "liberal political correctness" to refrain from doing that? No. It's what we used to call "politeness", "good manners" or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

 

[Bart Noir]

He's insulted Texas!

This will get ugly fast, then closed. So I predict.

Bart Noir
Likes Texas, but Orygun does allow full-auto. Conflicted feelings follow.

 

[Wes Janson]

This sort of thing would be easily doable within 5 years and will likely revolutionize SWAT tactics.

And I'm willing to bet you'll see an increase in the illegal smuggling of RPG-7s into this country.

 

[DRMMR02]

Orangelo, this is about on the same level as "Nip", "******", "Ring-kissing mackerel-snapper" or "Kike".

No, it's the same level as "krauts", "jerry", and "charlie".

 

[mdao]

Of course you realize that one armor-peircing round through the CPU and the thing becomes a steel cage. I can imagine all that equipment is heavy and as soon as a powered suit becomes an un-powered suit that soldier is in a world of hurt.

True, but I bet said soldier wouldn't be much better off if the AP round went through him instead of the suit's computer. This risk could be mitigated by smart design though.

The difficult way would be to use a distributed/redundant computing system. Knock out one computing core and the system would still work.

The easy way would be to put the computer right next to the soldier's head.

And I'm willing to bet you'll see an increase in the illegal smuggling of RPG-7s into this country.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. But, minimum arm distance is ~40-50 meters, and not much houses have enough space for that. Kinetic energy for an RPG at short distances isnt' that great either and probably wouldn't punch through armor too well.

 

[AJ Dual]

Good point.

Such a suit, once a mature technology would have some amazing advantages. Tacticaly, it could bring weapons traditionaly reserved for crew-served or vehicle/aircraft use down to "alley level". It would be the same quantum leap in urban combat capabilites just as when the 20mm cannon, and anti-tank guns were deployed in urban combat in a flexible fashion in WWII...

However, unless it could move and jump very, very, fast, (Just like the MI Marauder suits in Starship Troopers did) the suit would also be a "bullet magnet".

And since the major threat in the current conflict comes from IED's often capable of taking out armored vehicles. I don't know how well they'd play out in unconventional warfare. (in "conventional" mixed infantry/armor engagments against an enemy that does not have powered armor, it could well be devastating, IMO..)

If powered armor comes to pass, I think it'll be the "F-22" of the infantry. A very formidable next generation weapons system, but possibly already obsolete, just as it's coming on line. Just like for the F-22, the UCAV writing is on the wall. It's not a matter of "if", but "when".

For ground combat, I forsee similar developments as the UCAV. Not just Remote controled guns and vehicles, but swarms of atonomous "Crabs" and "birds" that work in concert like mobile intelligent minefields. Unless you could field an enormous amount of suited troops, these disposable bots would swarm them.

 

[thumper723]

On the F-22 point, there is a fight to keep a "man in the plane" and it is not just us military pilots trying to keep our jobs.

There have been numerous times in the current war where a pilot, being fed the same info on his displays that a UAV operator would see, aborted a weapon drop due to some thing that just did not look right. Keeping the man in the system will likely keep more of our men on the ground alive than we will kill pilots.

And most of us are okay with that.


Back to the MI suit, for military applications, it rocks, but I fear the JSO or any other wannabe military police department getting them.

 

[Macpherson]

I am puzzled at the idea of this thing being used for SWAT raids, do police also have access to or need for .50 caliber crew-served weapons? That is WAY overkill IMHO, the police are not the military and to have them bashing through doors and walls with powered armor is outrageous and the public wouldn't put up with it (some people even say that flashbangs are "too destructive"). I would be surprised if it could even fit through a standard doorway, and would impart all kinds of mobility problems indoors if the operator was making any attempt to minimize property damage. Swat teams need mobility and flexibility, not raw firepower. This would be effective in military urban combat, where collateral property damage is not as important, but even then you run into mobility problems, and contrary to the movies it's not a good idea to just crash through that load-bearing wall.

 

[History Nut]

Powered Exoskeleton

Referencing the original article, such a device would be a great advancement in the health care field. Personnel loses due to back injuries during heavy lifting are a huge part of the expenses of medical care. In combat, it would certainly be a boon to medics. The smallest medic could move the heaviest soldier out of the danger area while protecting him with the armor of the suit.

As far as SWAT uses, don't limit it to a 'weapons platform' but think of a 'protected entry' platform. One officer wearing the heavily armored suit could be the one that rips the door off its hinges and enters first. He doesn't even have to be lethally armed. He could have 'stun' and teargas/pepper spray dispensers on the suit. Multimillion candlepower lights would also temporarily blind and disorient the subjects of the raid. Used properly, it would reduce officer risk and suspect risk. Our problem is not the technology. "Powered Armor" or "Industrial Exoskeletons" are no more the problem than "civilian Assault Rifles". The problem is their use. Once this technology is refined and marketed, there will be abuse of it. Our responsibity is to be good citizens and elect people that will recognize this and maintain appropriate controls before the event and provide for harsh remedial action after an abuse by a governmental agency.

I agree that robotics and remote control vehicles/devices are going to be more and more prevalent on the modern battlefield. "Powered Armor" once developed would be great for our troops once the people in charge figure out how to best use it. All technology in warfare goes through an evolution of doctrine. Tanks were misused for years before the planners/commanders figured out how to make armor effective. Even then nothing stood alone. Now if they start work on a "Bolo", then I will get interested!

 

[mdao]

I would be surprised if it could even fit through a standard doorway, and would impart all kinds of mobility problems indoors if the operator was making any attempt to minimize property damage. Swat teams need mobility and flexibility, not raw firepower.

If SWAT teams are effectively invincible, and current powered suits already have enough load bearing capability to make that possible, there's not much need for the shock and awe/overwhelming force tactics that are currently used to minimize officer risk. That's how it'll change SWAT tactics. As History Nut noted, it'll be safer for both officers, who no longer have to worry about catching stray bullets, and safer for the suspects, who won't have to worry about jacked up/nervous/trigger happy cops.

As for bulk, it isn't too bad. Even current technology like Bleex allows for 100 kg carrying capacity without a large increase in bulk, and 100 kg of armor is a lot of armor. Armor bulkiness isn't too bad either and getting better all the time.

For ground combat, I forsee similar developments as the UCAV. Not just Remote controled guns and vehicles, but swarms of atonomous "Crabs" and "birds" that work in concert like mobile intelligent minefields. Unless you could field an enormous amount of suited troops, these disposable bots would swarm them.

UAVs have huge advantages over their ground based counterparts when it comes to feasibility. It'll be a long time before UGVs even approach where UAVs are now, much less where UCAV wants to go.

 

[AJ Dual]

UAVs have huge advantages over their ground based counterparts when it comes to feasibility. It'll be a long time before UGVs even approach where UAVs are now, much less where UCAV wants to go.

You are right of course, navigating in "clear air" is a much easier problem for AI to solve than a cluttered random ground environment.

However, developments are progressing in atonomous ground navigation. For instance, this year the DARPA automated car challenge was finaly won, several hundred miles of desert was crossed by an automated car with no human input.

And, with "swarmbots" they don't have to be truly inteligent or even very "advanced" to navigate, you just need a lot of them. For every one that falls in a manhole, there's 99 more that didn't etc... They could move about roach-like or semi-random like a Roomba vaccuum cleaner, then "pounce" in a directed fashion when a target finaly presents itself. Something that's possible with today's technology.

Advances are also being made in producing emergent behavior through robots that use cooperative networking. The scouts for a swarm that do screw up or get stuck will warn the others off etc.

 

[Gifted]

SWAT scenario:
Officer busts the door down, ignoring the bullets pinging off hte armor, grabs the first suspect he sees and cuffs him, as his fellows move in and do the same. They don't even need guns. Just wham and bam! With sufficient loudspeakers, you'd not have much trouble arguing that you didn't hear them announce. The only real problem would be the application of the no-knock raid. That horse has been hashed over in other threads, and need not be beaten again here.

Urban combat scenario:
The weapons would get bigger, but not as bad as you might think. You'd probably go with .308 with AP ammo for general use, and your heavy gunner would have a .50. Full-house .30 AP or a .50 is probably the only thing that would work well against a suit, once armored. Maybe 200-250 lbs for the suit, plus ammo and such. Big thing is being able to jump around, and run full speed with less strain. The roof of a two story building is now accessable without having to go inside. Armor, like mentioned, would make assault rifles obsolete, armies would go back to battle rifles with the power to punch through. If you can find a way to migitate the blast effects of a bomb, you'd be pretty much invincible. Almost all small arms and fragmentation weapons would be useless.

 

[91Bravo]

I would think this would eventually have some applications in urban disaster rescue/body retrieval where large earthmoving equipment is insufficiently delicate, but hand/shovel debris removal is difficult due to rubble size.

 

[rustymaggot]

the serious bad guys would find ways to disable the suits. a snapple bottle full of battery acid smashed into the suit would probably play hell with the wiring and metal surfaces. a bucket of paint or other thick fluid could wipe out the suits view and then a blind 'gorrilla' could do more harm than good. theres just too many ways to sabotage the suit cheaply that would ruin its worth in combat. if we lost a expensive suit to any enemy who was willing to drain his car battery then we would just spend way too much.

dont get me wrong, im a huge fan of starship troopers and id love to see them work, but the suits are going to fail and cost a ton to boot. untill they are fully armored and sealed to chemicals they are vulnerable to all sorts of things.

id like to see spring stilts on infantry. keep em fast moving and light weight. anyone know what im talking about? get em moving with a 5 or 6 foot stride.