Modular Rifles - From KISS to "Complex"

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Based on some of the posts I see from time to time, I get the impression that some people see this type of rifle as somehow wasteful or useless:

I frequently see that opinion in threads extolling the virtues of the "KISS" rifle. Usually these threads feature an A1 or A2 inspired rifle that isn't much different from the 1960s product. Now these are fine rifles and they certainly will do the job if you will - in fact, if the choice is training or extra gear, then these rifles may be the smartest choice of all if they allow you to work training into the budget.

But other than aesthetics or history, I don't understand the practical benefits of denying yourself access to modern tools. For example, here is my "KISS" rifle:

Unlike the monstrosity above that weighs in around 11lbs with a magazine, this rifle weighs about the same as an M4; but has better cooling, a free-floated barrel, better recoil control, better collapsible stock, better sights and ergos that suit me personally.

Of course, a light for self-defense might be nice since you want to identify your target and background. That is easy enough to add without getting too complex...

There we go. 60 lumens of light for target ID in low-light - only cost a few ounces and about $49. No real comnplexity added and worst case scenario, if it breaks I am right back where I started with no light at all.

The irons are very nice. The Troy same-plane apertue means no zero shift when I go for accuracy and the hooded front sight makes for an easy to acquire sight during fast shooting. Of course, my eyes aren't what they used to be, so it is harder to pick up the targets without magnification. It would also be nice to have the sights in the same plane as the target - that would let me be even faster...

There... MUCH better, though it did add some weight; but now I can acquire targets far enough away to actually enjoy the better accuracy at distance. At the same time, my close-in shooting actually improves as well. It cost me around 14oz of weight; but a worthy trade off and really not much more complex. While ACOGs don't break often, if this one does, then it can be removed and I am back where I started.

Of course, it would be nice to have a little more stability to enjoy the benefits of the ACOG....

Maybe a bipod/vertical grip all in one? 7oz and now I am more stable whether I am prone and shooting at distance or moving and shooting multiple rounds at 15yds. With a good stance and the muzzle brake, the donut hardly even moves when I pull the trigger...

On the other hand, that muzzle brake is LOUD... I wish I had an even more effective muzzle brake; but one that was quieter...

Hmmm.... full circle again. Parts go on or come off as I need them. I can always go back to KISS; but I have extra options available to me too. This is why I like modular rifles. Even if I decide that I don't need any of these things, I will always have the option to add them.

So budget concerns aside, why do I read so many deprecating comments concerning modular rifles?

 

[Eightball]

So budget concerns aside, why do I read so many deprecating comments concerning modular rifles?

 

[KINGMAX]

Swiss Army

Has anyone from the SWISS ARMY KNIFE & TOOL Co.

 

[LoadedDrum]

Given the choice between your rifle Bart, and a true died in the wool A1 KISS rifle I would not hesitate to choose yours for any circumstance.

I wonder where my XCR's fit into the KISS<--->Modular specturm. They have flip up rail mounted sights and folding/collapsing stocks. However they do away with all of the AR's most failure prone parts. Has anyone out side of the military actually broken a flip sight?

 

[ConfuseUs]

The beauty of the KISS rifle is that it's cheap, you don't need an engineering degree to figure it out, and you can always bolt on the doodads if you decide you didn't spend enough money.

 

[Chuck R.]

So budget concerns aside, why do I read so many deprecating comments concerning modular rifles?

I think it's because there "seems" to be a good percentage of folks with guns like yours that flat out can't shoot.

I've seen guys show up at matches and a couple classes now with over 2K invested in their AR that haven't even taken the time to figure out how to maintain it properly and in some extreme cases didn't even have a proper zero.

There's nothing wrong with the way your rifle is setup, it is functional. Unfortunately I don't think I'm the only one that's run into some of the folks I've mentioned with more "bling" then skill.

You see the same kind of thing with customized 1911s, there's also a KISS 1911 subculture.

Chuck

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Well, there's not a whole lot of difference between Barth's tactical set up vs. say a plain old A1 when it comes to function and reliability. If each has quality internals - they are equal on this level. So the gadgets attached are not a negative to reliability.

I have a Colt, with Troy BUIS, Larue mounted Aimpoint, vertical forward pistol grip etc....even if I attached a light, it wouldn't hurt the rifle. The things I put on it are useful or can be useful. I have another AR with a Trijicon ACOG. Now that is definitely an incredible optic. Very handy and useful and increases my effectiveness at range. I like things that make me more effective. Whether it be more accurate or faster or both. That is always a good thing.

All these things are advancements that offer benefits. Innovation is a good thing. An AR with all that stuff is as superior fighting machine than what we used 70 years ago.


*** The rest of my post is not intended as a thread-jack, but explains my current views of what a KISS rifle can do and is used for.

When it comes to late-night home defense, I have the KISS idea in place. It is based on what I predict would most likely be a realistic scenario. I predict that I might be woken up by some sort of home intrusion. I predict that I'll have just a mere few seconds to get to my rifle that is near by and get it into "ready mode" ..I'll be disoriented and sloppy from my sleep. Even with the instant adrenaline charge and the seriousness and importance of the situation which helps increase awareness and alertness faster than say waking up any other day - you're still not 100%. No matter what, waking up is 1 step - the natural thing to do, and will happen regardless, then it will be to wonder why you woke up. There will be a couple of seconds that you go from out cold to trying to find out what the situation is.


I just want the most dirt simple rifle I can possible get. I just want to grab it and be in action. I use a Saiga for home defense. All I have to do is charge it and I'm ready to shoot. Or drop the safety if I keep one in the pipe. No lights, no sighting, no optics no nothing. Just point and shoot. I also do not plan on searching and destroying. I do not plan on doing a room clearing throughout the house. For that I'd want a light or a super-short carbine and those are the features that go hand in hand with the type of work that law enforcement does. I plan on staying in my bedroom and having a magazine full of 7.62x39mm ready for whatever tries to come through that door. (I lock my door, this can buy you a couple of seconds).


This is different from a SHTF scenario. Many SHTF scenarios are not a complete high-speed invasion situation like someone breaking into your home when you are completely out of it in a deep sleep. You have some warning, some anticipation and some time to prepare. If the SHTF, and it is unexpected, you still will have more time to "deploy" than you would in a home invasion. A home invasion is the absolute worst of all situations. It is the most time limited. Your "defenses" have been breached and someone is inside or in the process of entering. Here you have just seconds to react, get armed and respond. No situation puts that kind of stress and emphasis on speed other than being confronted by a deadly force threat on the street while carrying concealed and needing to draw quickly. At least there, you are awake.


If there is a hurricane, riot or some kind of situation. I've got time to get my Colt, some mags turn on the Aimpoint and be in ready mode.


I also predict the situation to be lightning fast, quick and blinding violence. Shots will fire, things will move fast. I can't see where I would need a light to do a "target ID" ...anyone in my home without my permission (in Florida) is presumed to be a deadly force threat. I know my relatives and friends. No one is going to kick my door in at 3am (other than maybe the police getting the wrong address on a no-knock). That would be awful especially if I respond with a firearm since I'd be dead meat in no time. That's another topic entirely. There is nothing accidental about someone breaking in my situation. I don't have any drunk roommates that might have lost a key. I don't have any pranksters in my family.


I form these ideas based on stories of actual home invasions. Usually it is extremely quick. Someone gets in, home owner grabs 1st available firearm and there are shots. There is nothing else to it.

I choose the Saiga because it is more robust than the AR. Less likely to jam or have an issue. And I've never had a single jam from an AR before. I base this on the rifle's design and my experience. The AR is better for SHTF where you are already in your senses and somewhat prepared in my view. I also like the caliber choice. I base this on penetration. From the real-world stories I've read about armed home invasions, there are many cases where the situation involved shooting through doors. Having the ability to get through doors, walls, cabinets and furniture and still delivering a decent hit is important.

This idea that you have to get a positive ID and then fire is simply not a great one. That is for police, who are held responsible by a grand jury for making a good shot or not. It is part of their duty - it is work related. For you, it isn't part of your duty. You aren't engaging because that's what you do for a living. Now, it is life or death for both you and a cop and the cop doesn't truly have a choice in the situation, but life isn't fair and standards can vary wildly. How will it look for an officer to fire on a suspected perp through a door? That happens, but it is never viewed as a good police decision or response to blast through a door. Note the Key word - suspected. That doesn't apply in the world of home-defense for a civilian (at least in Florida). You aren't the law to have to determine legality or illegality. They are presumed to be a deadly threat when illegally in your home. They aren't suspect. You're just trying to keep them from killing you at all costs.


Remember, when professionals do room clearing - they also have a pistol in a holster either on their side or in some type of quick draw arrangement. If they hear "click" on the carbine, they drop it and immediately draw the pistol and respond. The tactical AR is part of a "system" that is ideal for certain tasks. It's just my view, and I could be blatantly wrong, but I don't see it as the most ideal tool for the things I envision. For SHTF? Yes. Home invasion? No.

 

[Chris Rhines]

So budget concerns aside, why do I read so many deprecating comments concerning modular rifles?

Twofold answer.

Part is jealousy from people who can't afford nice hardware - same dynamic as the people who talk down high-end custom 1911s and such, in favor of box-stock Glocks and Rugers.

Part is because 90% of self-identified "shooters" don't shoot very much, nor very well. They don't have the skill or experience enough to appreciate the value of the components that you hang on your rifle. So they talk down what they don't understand.

- Chris

 

[Hoppy590]

let me say, the swiss army did make a rifle. and its so simple you dont even have to turn a bolt.

Twofold answer.

Part is jealousy from people who can't afford nice hardware - same dynamic as the people who talk down high-end custom 1911s and such, in favor of box-stock Glocks and Rugers.

Part is because 90% of self-identified "shooters" don't shoot very much, nor very well. They don't have the skill or experience enough to appreciate the value of the components that you hang on your rifle. So they talk down what they don't understand.

that reeks of arrogance. turning everyone who thinks differantly than you into jealous poor simpletons.

 

[Powderman]

For the OP--schweeet! I like--I like a LOT!!!

I would LOVE to have all the go-faster goodies. I destroyed the piggy bank buying my carbine, though, so I have to go simple. However, I am pleased with the way I have mine set up.

I would LOVE an ACOG, but can't afford one right now. My set up includes a Pentagon X3 in a forward mount that I can activate with my non firing hand. I personally don't go with the pistol grip, but hey--YMMV. Got the BUIS and the dot sight, though--it works well!

This idea that you have to get a positive ID and then fire is simply not a great one.

For this poster, fella, this statement and this point of view is a tragedy waiting to happen.

ALWAYS IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET!!! There is almost NO circumstance I can think of where you need to let off some rounds without ID'ing that target.

Here, a strong weapon light served two purposes. It will definitely aid in target ID--and it will disorient and blind your target temporarily. The reason I chose the Pentagon light is because it puts out 165 lumens, which can actually HURT at close range. (Hey--the second reason I chose the Pentagon light? $40.00 on Ebay, yee haw!)

 

[taliv]

bart, my rifle is almost exactly like yours, except
1. i got rid of the BUIS
2. there's a vortex under my suppressor instead of a brake
3. i like the magpul grip
4. i have a regular foregrip (and it took me a LONG time to decide to attach it)

my answer to your question is that some "extras" or "attachments" help in certain situations and hurt in other situations.

obvious for instances:
bipod helps when you're prone taking long shots, but is a lot of extra useless weight, screws up the balance, snags on twigs and leaves and stuff, etc.
lasers help at certain ranges in certain light conditions on certain surfaces, but since those conditions rarely occur on shooting ranges, there's a ton of them hanging off rifles that have never been zeroed, with wires and stuff that are attached in such a way that they look cool, but probably wouldn't last a few hours of sweat and hard use.

the answer, i guess is that i don't necessarily consider any specific piece of gear impractial or mall-ninja-only. it really depends on how the gun is going to be used. and i think a lot of people add junk onto their guns that would theoretically help them in some incident they've dreamt up but never encountered, and that same junk hurts them the other 99% of the time

but i'll admit that i often see rifles with individual pieces that just seem very contradicting, that make me strongly suspect the rifle has never been used.

 

[DMK]

Based on some of the posts I see from time to time, I get the impression that some people see this type of rifle as somehow wasteful or useless...But other than aesthetics or history, I don't understand the practical benefits of denying yourself access to modern tools.

I think my issue with 'loaded' ARs is that I like light and handy guns with simple controls. I consider all ARs carbines, not battle rifles. I love the M1 Carbine, but consider it a pistol caliber carbine. I love the SKS, but it's not that accurate and has awkward controls. IMO, the AR is the perfect carbine for me. But only when it's light, handy and simple. I don't like HBARs, I don't like rail forends. I don't like anything that's a detriment to it being lightweight and handy. I prefer superlight or Govt. profile barrels and standard handguards.

Here's my "Go To" carbine. It's perfect for my needs. I didn't set it up this way to save money, I set it up this way because anything else would be unnecessary (For me. Obviously, everyone's needs are different). In fact, I have two of these, setup exactly the same except one has a 1/9 twist barrel with a Phantom FS and the other is a 1/7 with a Vortex (they both have a newer Holosight than this one pictured too).

Although the midlength carbine is always loaded at "Cruiser Ready" for HD. I prefer shooting this Govt. Profile 20". I guess I like the challenge of open sights. In fact, this rifle evolved into an M16A4 type rifle with a rail, scope and everything at one point, yet it made it's way back to this A2 configuration, which is how I like it best.

 

[BADUNAME13]

Red dot, BUIS, light,


You need a sling.

The suppressor can be nice to have, and useful in some circumstances.
I personally don't use forward pistol grips, but that is a personal choice, and I see nothing that isn't 'fighting rifle' material.

The first time I beat a guy who was better than me because he used irons and I used a red dot I was sold...

 

[Zak Smith]

There's nothing wrong with a KISS rifle (well except A2 sights aren't KISS)


............... Larger version of above photo.

But there are better tools for many jobs--


............... Larger version of above photo.


............... Larger version of above photo.

 

[Gewehr98]

Bart, perhaps you took it too personally?

My biggest gripe about Rooney Guns is that the owners I've run across as range safety officer somehow think that bolting on the lasers, phasers, and wind speed-indicators impart magical marksmanship powers, straight from the box. Their M4gery makes them high-speed, low-drag, SEEL Team Bravo Sierra, etc.

I've had them unbolt all the goodies, and get back to basics on how to shoot a clean AR-15 platform with iron sights, learning how to zero for range, etc. Then they can proceed to bolt on all the bling-bling afterwards.

I know there are folks who know how to use the stuff to best advantage. I'm not denying them their day in the sun. But I'd wager those who do know how to use the stuff probably can do a decent job with a KISS rifle, be it a slick-side triangle handguard M16, M16A1, M16A2, M16A3, M4, or SP1, Sporter, AR-15A2, etc.

This does not a marksman, or Fred's "rifleman" make:



However, if you can show me you know how to use one of these clean variants to best effect, I might cut you some slack with the above Rooney Gun.



Otherwise, chances are I'm looking at another bolt-on poseur.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I wonder where my XCR's fit into the KISS<--->Modular specturm.

I would imagine the XCR is very modular given that it was designed to compete for the SCAR trials. I can't think of anything I can add to the AR that I cannot add to an XCR.

The beauty of the KISS rifle is that it's cheap, you don't need an engineering degree to figure it out, and you can always bolt on the doodads if you decide you didn't spend enough money.

There is no question that you spend a lot more than 10% more money to improve a stock rifle's performance 10%. KISS is certainly good on value; but I don't see anything on that rifle that requires an engineering degree. If you can turn a nut and bolt, you can install or remove most of those components.

While you can always bolt on components to any rifle, another advantage of modular rifles is I can take my ACOG and drop it on any rifle with a 1913 rail - a SIG 556, an XCR, etc. and it is ready to go. I can also take them off when I don't need them and reinstall them without losing zero.

I would LOVE to have all the go-faster goodies. I destroyed the piggy bank buying my carbine, though, so I have to go simple.

It isn't like I just walked out and bought that one. The original rifle was purchased in 1994 and I have been modifying it since 1998. Heck, just seacrhing my posts on THR, you can probably see it evolve over time. I just added a little bit here and there when I could afford it. In fact, I would say my biggest error was I spent more on gear and modifying it at the beginning. I should have spent more on training instead. It would have given me a better idea of what gear would benefit me. Instead I bought a lot of the gear first and then started training (Which may explain some of the other comments in this thread regarding expensive rifles and inexperienced users ).

bart, my rifle is almost exactly like yours, except

Yes, I think we've talked about that in the past. It seems that as guys shoot a lot, they tend to gravitate towards a Zak-Smith like platform with minor variations to suit their personal tastes.

I don't like anything that's a detriment to it being lightweight and handy.

I can absolutely understand that. At a recent rifle class I took, somebody was playing with a FAL carbine and then my rifle. My rifle was noticeably heavier than the FAL with all the gear attached. I have to admit that having a FAL feel lighter and handier than your AR is shocking. The nice thing though is I can easily make the AR light and handy again.

You need a sling.

I have a sling - two slings actually. A Specter MOUT single point and a VCAS two point. Both are quick detach though so I can swap out long guns easily on the line. You can see the tail of the MOUT sling that the Fastex buckle snaps into tucked underneath the stock if you look closely. There is also a rail mounted QD swivel on the rail on the other side.

There's nothing wrong with a KISS rifle (well except A2 sights aren't KISS)

Absolutely nothing wrong with KISS. I don't feel undergunned at all with my other rifle (though it does have A2 sights )

I just end up shooting the modular more because if I feel like shooting irons easily I can; but if I change my mind I can try other stuff without having to bring along another rifle. I like the extra flexibility.

That 17" is probably one of my favorite ARs...very clean design and practical. I plan to add a UBR stock myself once they hit production.

However, if you can show me you know how to use one of these clean variants to best effect, I might cut you some slack with the above Rooney Gun. Otherwise, chances are I'm looking at another bolt-on poseur.

Any more I can generally tell by what gear the owner has added how often they shoot and in what kind of circumstances. You can take one look at Zak's rifle and know that it belongs to somebody who shoots, probably competes in 3-gun a lot, and has designed the rifle for a general-purpose "jack of all trades" use. By comparison, I know the guy with the Fobus handguards and NCstar red dot on his rifle probably doesn't step off the square range much and doesn't do much dynamic shooting (if any).

 

[Crunker1337]

Buying a great rifle doesn't make you an expert marksman.

That said, there are things that you just can't do as well with a bare-bones rifle as with a customized rifle. For instance, shoot in the dark.

 

[ConfuseUs]

Oh, I could take my bare bones rifle and shoot in the dark with it. It would be a "religious shooting experience", eg, spray and pray.

If I added more stuff to my carbine it would probably be a light and laser in a tower mount. Anything else, to me, is unnecessary baggage.

I have to admit that I find guys with fully accessorized ARs (red dot/holographic sight, flip-up back-up irons, laser, light, picatinny rail forearm, forward vertical grip, etc. ad infinitum ad nauseum) pretty comic. The dollars invested in all that equipment are dollars not invested in ammo, range time, or training.

 

[KaceCoyote]

I like simple, however I will say this. Make a rifle as simple as you can, without sacrificing its ability to perform the task required of it. Take what you need, not what you dont. I think guys get this sort've complex with rails "well I have it so why dont I use it". Its not everyone, and you guys know who I'm talking about.

Modular is good. Effective is better.

 

[LoadedDrum]

Gewehr98-

That focus picture is just too hillarious to describe in words. Ten points to anyone who can correctly name all of the stuff hanging of that poor mod1 clone.

 

[Quintin Likely]

I don't pick on no one's choice of rifle or accessory. Every person is different, so what works for them may not work for me, and vice versa.

That said, I'm in the keep-it-simple camp. Not saying that a rifle with an optic, a light, a suppressor, BUIS, and a vertical foregrip isn't simple...rather, that it isn't simple for me. KISS and complex are relative.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Ten points to anyone who can correctly name all of the stuff hanging of that poor mod1 clone.

Two compact ACOGs (one red w Trijicon mount, one amber w/ARMS 19, 24mm obj), TA31 w/ARMS 19 mount, Surefire 900, Leupold MR/T in ARMS rings, two Aimpoints (one in an ARMS 22M68 mount with cantilever spacer, other I can't see), KAC 12.0 Freefloat tube, OPS Inc. two-port brake, Harris bipod, Samco G27 grip, Magpul stock with laser attached and a fluffy white cat toy IIRC.

Which kind of brings up another point, several people have made mention of rifles with "too much crap hanging off"; but everytime someone wants to make that point, they drag up one of these two pictures which were obviously jokes. Does anyone have some examples of rifles that the owners have hung excessive junk on that are intended to actually be used with all that?

That said, I'm in the keep-it-simple camp. Not saying that a rifle with an optic, a light, a suppressor, BUIS, and a vertical foregrip isn't simple...rather, that it isn't simple for me. KISS and complex are relative.

That is a great point. To use one example, a friend likes a Leupold scope on his rifle. It works great and practically it does the job very efficiently; but it bugs me because the eye relief is so long and I have trouble adjusting to keeping my head that far back on the stock. There is nothing about it that is really complex; but it is different enough to what I am accustomed to that I prefer not to use it.

 

[FMJMIKE]

I agree with the KISS principle for a self defense weapon. For self defense it had better go "BANG" when the trigger is pulled.............Here is a photo of my KISS of death rifle........It goes "BANG" every time......

 

[Gewehr98]

I have given in to the "high-speed, low-drag" concept a bit, myself.

I recently put tritium sights on my bedside gun.

 

[ryoushi]

I like those A1/M4 IDF hybreds