More press on DHS Ammo

[Vector]

Here is the reply from my Congressman regarding this issue(names have been removed to protect my anonymity/location);

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Dear Mr. ,

Thank you for contacting me to express your views regarding reports of recent weapons purchases by the Department of Homeland Security. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this very important issue.

According to DHS, it regularly places its goods and services orders at one time in order to take advantage of cheaper, bulk order prices. It does so through contracts that allow the Department to make purchases depending on its needs up to a maximum amount, which likely will never be reached. Through the following link, you can read the Department's answers to several questions regarding the ammunition purchases, which have been the subject of recent reporting: http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...&File_id=9cde768f-bb3a-4fd9-8176-1745c21519c2.

In those responses, DHS lays out in more specific details the needs of its various agencies, including Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Customs and Border Protection, the Coast Guard, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Secret Service, and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. If you have additional questions regarding these purchases, I would encourage you to contact DHS directly, which can be reached at:

Secretary Janet Napolitano Department of Homeland Security U.S. Department of Homeland Security Washington, D.C. 20528

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts about these important issues. I hope you will continue to communicate with me on matters of concern to you.

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Make of this what you will.

`

 

[Bruno2]

Why don't they just go to .22 conversions then? I know the .22 guys are ready to lynch me about now , but wouldn't that save a ton of money and still let them practice? Maybe go to 50/50 for all you guys that say "they need the recoil to simulate real life scenarios". Just saying.

 

[Bruno2]

This showed up from the GOA on my FB page a while back. Now I do like the Pratt's , but sometimes they get a little far out there. However, I just wanted to repost this just for conversation:

On Saturday, Terry M. Hestilow, a retired United States Army Captain from Fort Worth, Texas, posted a letter on Facebook that he wrote to Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, warning that the Department of Homeland Security is preparing to go to war with the citizens of the United States.

http://www.examiner.com/article/ret...s-preparing-for-war-against-american-citizens

 

[nwilliams]

The whole thing seemed a bit excessive when I first heard the rumor that DHS bought 1.6 Billion rounds for five years but then I did the math.

According to wiki DHS employs 240,000 people.

1,600,000,000/5 = 320,000,000 rounds per year
320,000,000/240,000 =1,333 rounds per employee per year
1,333/12 = 111 rounds per month

Now granted not all DHS employes are armed or require firearms training but even if half that number of employees (120,000) are armed and require firearms training that's still only 222 rounds per agent per month. If only half of them (60,000) are armed that's still less than 500 rounds per employee per month.

Now if the rumor is wrong and DHS only bought 750,000,000 rounds....well you do the math.

People need to ditch their tin foil hats.

 

[Narwhal]

DHS does practice with hollow points. They usually use the "older ammo" for practice.....

FWIW I went through a DHS program and we used Federal Hydra-Shok ammunition - our class went through 30,000 rounds of it per week, so you could see how they would need a lot. We were issued a more modern hollow point for duty after graduation.

 

[Tomcat47]

The way I see it... This will die down and all of a sudden their will be large quantities of once fired brass/ammo on government surplus.....

The only way to get the money you spent in taxes back from the gov.... buy it back at a discounted rate!

 

[Sambo82]

Yeah, I agree, Steve. No matter how many times you explain to people with factual evidence that there's not really a story here, people keep dragging it up. The order is not larger than in the past, where did you find something saying it's all HPs, and DHS trains a heck of a lot of people so they have a need for the ammo. I just know I'm going to hear a response along the lines of "well what about the 1,600 MRAPs?" Which anyone who can do some fact checking knows was a misreported order for the Marines and not DHS.

Good to know... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pS9aw5pcJo

Yup. Crazy tin foil hat people. OBVIOUSLY DHS and the rest of the alphabet agencies aren't militarizing....

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Yup. Crazy tin foil hat people. OBVIOUSLY DHS and the rest of the alphabet agencies aren't militarizing....

Once again fact check. They have a handful of them (IIRC somewhere between 10-20) but the 1600 MRAPS were a USMC order. 15 MRAPs does not a domestic invasion force make.

Are cops increasingly getting military grade gear (body armor, semi-auto/auto rifles/etc)? Maybe, but look back 150 years...your lawman might have been armed with a revolver and a lever action which was actually better armed than the military of the time. Look back to the 30s, most cops had revolvers or maybe a semi-auto pistol like a 1911. Shotguns, Thompsons and bolt rifles back at HQ...not that different from the military was using at the time. So in some ways maybe cops are getting more militarized but it would appear the trend is generally consistent with lawmen adopting equipment and tactics from the military.

I really don't think we need to get our panties in a twist. It's important to fact check and make sure we're not crying wolf over something we have way overestimated (like the DHS possible order and the whole MRAP thing). Let's make sure we keep a level head and really have the accurate facts.

 

[mgmorden]

Tell that to the Senators and Reps looking into it.

You do realize that they once passed the "Undetectable Firearms Act" banning types of guns that never even existed in the first place right? (in the late 1980's, with the increased popularity of polymer framed pistols, politicians thought they could go through metal detectors).

Or of course their attempts to ban barrel shrouds (successfully for 10 years) - or "the should thing that goes up" as Carolyn McCarthy calls them.

Never underestimate the ability for a politician to debate or even pass laws dealing with imaginary issues and problems.

 

[steelerdude99]

You do realize that they once passed the "
Never underestimate the ability for a politician to debate or even pass laws dealing with imaginary issues and problems.

And propose law(s) that solve "imaginary issues and problems" with technologies that don't yet exist.

 

[4tsmith]

Never hurts to let the competition feel the heat for a change.

EXACTLY WHO or WHAT is DHS.Your reps sling the title around all the time,but it's becoming so vast no one really knows anymore.
Ask them why DHS. needs 7500 full automatic rifles in the much more powerful 308 caliber.
Ask them why DHS needs 3000 bullet proof,up armored,IED resistant assault/personnel vehicles.Don't we have an army to repel an invasion by a foreign army?
Ask them why the EPA,DOE and other agencies too numerous to mention need to be armed to perform routine field inspections and administrative duties,particularly in some states where law abiding citizens aren't allowed to carry concealed firearms.

Ask and keep asking,let THEM feel the heat for a change.

 

[JRH6856]

The DHS doesn't buy all of these large numbers of ammo, they just issue indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contracts in which the contractors commit to deliver the contracted items on demand, when demanded.

So fix your tinfoil hats in place and think about this for awhile:

The administration is using the DHS to issue indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contracts for large amounts of ammo requiring ammo manufacturers to keep large stocks in reserve to meet the potential demands they must meet if and when the demand is made. The creates a shortage in the civilian market resulting in panic buying and hoarding.

As gun owners become increasingly frustrated with the lack or ammo and reloading components, they begin to sell their guns which they can't get ammo for. This drives down the price of the guns and encourages more owners to try to sell their (useless without ammo) guns while they still have some value. The lower prices do not increase demand because of the unavailability of ammo, and as shooters move to other calibers, the ammo shortage spreads to those calibers as well because manufacturers are still responding to the DHS contracts which are issued as needed to keep the shortage in place.

When the price on guns drops low enough, initiate "buy-back" programs that pay at or just above the depressed market value which encourages owners to turn in these "useless" guns.

Destroy the guns.

Repeat as necessary until the number of gun owners is reduced to a non-impactful number, depriving the NRA of its base, and driving many gun manufacturers out of business due to lack of demand. (Govt then subsidizes those that supply only govt. needs.)

With political influence waning, along with the public's interest in guns that they can't use, mount a campaign to repeal the 2nd Amendment, then register and confiscate all firearms still in private hands.

Destroy the guns.

Could it work? How long will it take?

Keep in mind that the spending this would require dovetails nicely with the administration's goals to destroy the economy for political gain by spending us into oblivion.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Our local police have the latest in body armor. There is an AR in every car or each officer as ths city purchased one for each officer. Shotguns in every car. Sidearms and Tazers too. They have the latest in FLIR, tracking and other surveillance equipment and thats just the patrol guys. The SWAT guys have that and more like armored vehicles.

The Police these days are not like the police of the past. More military than police these days.

 

[alsaqr]

Why don't they just go to .22 conversions then?

Because the duty weapon is not a .22.

 

[leadchucker]

How does the actual small arms ammunition usage by the DHS compare with the small arms ammunition usage of the US Army?

 

[Pilot]

I think it is a legitimate question. The fact that Napolitano doesn't want to address it or reluctantly addresses it with deflection, or potential misinformation, speaks volumes.

I would not be surprised if the Administration is gearing up for civil unrest due to possible economic failure. It isn't only the ammo. It is the military weaponry, military equipment, armored vehicles being used on the Fed, State, and Local levels, much of it bought with Fed re-distributed "stimulus" money.

 

[InkEd]

People are forgetting, NOT ALL DHS employees are going through any real amount of firearms training. If a person is a receptionist, janitor, IT support, file clerk, etc working for a DHS agency they are still included in those figures. Keep that in mind.

 

[4tsmith]

The DHS doesn't buy all of these large numbers of ammo, they just issue indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contracts in which the contractors commit to deliver the contracted items on demand, when demanded.

So fix your tinfoil hats in place and think about this for awhile:

The administration is using the DHS to issue indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contracts for large amounts of ammo requiring ammo manufacturers to keep large stocks in reserve to meet the potential demands they must meet if and when the demand is made. The creates a shortage in the civilian market resulting in panic buying and hoarding.

As gun owners become increasingly frustrated with the lack or ammo and reloading components, they begin to sell their guns which they can't get ammo for. This drives down the price of the guns and encourages more owners to try to sell their (useless without ammo) guns while they still have some value. The lower prices do not increase demand because of the unavailability of ammo, and as shooters move to other calibers, the ammo shortage spreads to those calibers as well because manufacturers are still responding to the DHS contracts which are issued as needed to keep the shortage in place.

When the price on guns drops low enough, initiate "buy-back" programs that pay at or just above the depressed market value which encourages owners to turn in these "useless" guns.

Destroy the guns.

Repeat as necessary until the number of gun owners is reduced to a non-impactful number, depriving the NRA of its base, and driving many gun manufacturers out of business due to lack of demand. (Govt then subsidizes those that supply only govt. needs.)

With political influence waning, along with the public's interest in guns that they can't use, mount a campaign to repeal the 2nd Amendment, then register and confiscate all firearms still in private hands.

Destroy the guns.

Could it work? How long will it take?

Keep in mind that the spending this would require dovetails nicely with the administration's goals to destroy the economy for political gain by spending us into oblivion.

This is exactly the kind of deterrence effect that mayors and governors talk about each year when they gather in national meetings.

They talk in terms of chilling,restraining,slowing(etc)the firearms culture.
Terms like rolling back the expectation of heritage rights and educating children to understand the need for much stronger gun control laws.
The expected positive deterrent effects of ammunition coding and micro marking of firing pins and ammunition;deterrence by limiting,taxing,registering or restricting ammunition and loading supplies.
They sight the worst offenders as models for future goals.

Thank heavens I've hoarded enough tinfoil for a new hat.

 

[Oklacoyotekiller]

Never ceases to amaze me when people accept what they are told by gov. as fact. Napolitano comes out and says thats not what we're doing. Oh, ok. Must be true. She has lied so many time recently, then when called on it , tells another lie to cover it. We will never get a straight answer from this admin.

 

[MagnunJoe]

No ammo, little ammo = gun control.

 

[HKGuns]

This thread is alarming from a number of perspectives. First the paranoid delusion that they are actually smart enough to limit your ammo supply through the Government Purchasing system.

Closely followed by the, unfathomable, lack of understanding of the global monetary system.

The US sells debt to fund outstanding obligations and China buys it because it is an attractive investment and we've not yet defaulted on our debt. It isn't like NOBAMA is going to China asking them for money. There are a lot of Countries who invest in our debt....China is a large Country with a lot of money, therefore they are one of the largest investors.

Just settle down and focus on electing politicians who aren't going to mortgage the Country trying to be everything to everyone in hopes it will garner them votes.

 

[22-rimfire]

Yeah, I agree, Steve. No matter how many times you explain to people with factual evidence that there's not really a story here, people keep dragging it up. The order is not larger than in the past, where did you find something saying it's all HPs, and DHS trains a heck of a lot of people so they have a need for the ammo. I just know I'm going to hear a response along the lines of "well what about the 1,600 MRAPs?" Which anyone who can do some fact checking knows was a misreported order for the Marines and not DHS. Seriously guys, the government is not preparing for a war against the US populace...there's really not a story here no matter how much you might want to fantasize about it. In terms of wasteful government expenditure, this isn't even close to the top 100 so it's really a non issue.

Actually there is a story here. Relative to other police agencies they are buying at a much higher rate per man. The logical conclusion is that they are in fact preparing for something that they don't want to tell us sheep about.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

40 cents on the dollar are borrowed from China for the funding of two wars that have accomplished nothing. Be pissed about that, the ammo cost is a drop in a swimming pool.
This has been discussed before at length. Conspiracy nuts will see what they want to see.
Soldiers/sailors/marines are mostly laborers, in a sense. Your average enlisted man or woman quals twice a year with very few live rounds down range. The high speed gun toters shoot alot more but there are relatively few of them.
Think about NYPDs incident where they shot a bunch of bystanders trying to get a gunman. I want every commissioned officer(there are like over 200k Feds) to shoot at least 100 rounds a month practicing, plus to qual 4 times a year so when I'm at the Smithsonian with my family and a deranged nut starts shooting people the Feds can get him without putting rounds in me and mine!
So if you think that you are being a steward of American fiduciary responsibility because you are griping on THR about "runaway federal ammo costs" or sending "lazy letters"(email) to your elected reps, more power to you, but get some perspective. I don't care for the current regime but nitpicking over non-issues draws people away from real issues that matter.

 

[22-rimfire]

I read that DHS has 70,000 not 200,000 people.

A "drop in the swimming pool" is not justification to be wasteful.

I would much rather provide my own protection at the Smithsonian than depend on some security guard to protect me.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Unlike some people suggest, this is not a tin hat issue. I think people have real questions about this. ....

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04/25/reps-challenge-dhs-ammo-buys-say-agency-using-1000-more-rounds-per-person-than/?test=latestnews

A politician using some misinformation stated in a misleading way and floating around in cyberspace as an excuse to make a speech. You would have thought it?

Here is the reply from my Congressman regarding this issue...

...According to DHS, it regularly places its goods and services orders at one time in order to take advantage of cheaper, bulk order prices. It does so through contracts that allow the Department to make purchases depending on its needs up to a maximum amount, which likely will never be reached. Through the following link, you can read the Department's answers to several questions regarding the ammunition purchases, which have been the subject of recent reporting:[/I] http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public...&File_id=9cde768f-bb3a-4fd9-8176-1745c21519c2.

In those responses, DHS lays out in more specific details the needs of its various agencies, including Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Customs and Border Protection, the Coast Guard, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Secret Service, and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. ...

That is the correct answer. The government (and businesses, for that matter) will routinely make arrangements to assure that their future needs for pretty much anything can be met through the mechanism of what are called "requirement" contracts. As such the vendor commits to fill purchase orders at the contract price for quantities up to the stated contract aggregate quantity. Such contracts thus lock-in availability of a certain amount of something at a known price.