Mossberg No. M4 Rifle Scope

[Johnm1]

I happened upon this on the Broker. Wasn't looking for one, but it was located about 3 miles from the house. A Mossberg No. M4 Rifle Scope and it is all there and optically functional. I haven't mounted it to a rifle so can't be sure it can be adjusted yet. I'm cautiously optimistic it will though. $16.





Early version with patant pending instead of a patant date. Late 1930's. When I saw it my first thought was it would look right on my Stevens Favorite model of 1896. That rifle is accurate enough to warrant a scope but I'm not really keen on drilling it. That and the scope is way too modern for the rifle. I think I'll stay with my original thought and put a peep sight on the Steven's.


Now I have to buy an appropriate rifle to put under it. I'm thinking maybe a Mossberg 45 B or C would be appropriate. What do you think I should look for? Here is a 45B.

 

[Johnm1]

Here is a Mossberg Model 45 with the scope mounted on a M5 mount. I like the look. Now finding a Mossberg No. 5 mount is going to be a little challenging. And expensive. If I look for a Mossberg manufactured after 1949 it will come with the receiver machined for a tip off mount. It won't look quite as 'Classic ' but probably not bad either. And it woul be substantially cheaper.



It doesn't have to be a Mossberg 45 or even a Mossberg. The rifle just has to have that old look/feel to it. Steven's, Savage, Springfield. Heck even a store branded model would work.

Suggestions.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I happened upon this on the Broker. Wasn't looking for one, but it was located about 3 miles from the house. A Mossberg No. M4 Rifle Scope and it is all there and optically functional. I haven't mounted it to a rifle so can't be sure it can be adjusted yet. I'm cautiously optimistic it will though. $16.

View attachment 1072500

View attachment 1072501

Early version with patant pending instead of a patant date. Late 1930's. When I saw it my first thought was it would look right on my Stevens Favorite model of 1896. That rifle is accurate enough to warrant a scope but I'm not really keen on drilling it. That and the scope is way too modern for the rifle. I think I'll stay with my original thought and put a peep sight on the Steven's.
View attachment 1072503

Now I have to buy an appropriate rifle to put under it. I'm thinking maybe a Mossberg 45 B or C would be appropriate. What do you think I should look for? Here is a 45B.

View attachment 1072504

I have a 45B which was a basket case rescue gun and it is a nice shooter now, though I did have to replace the trigger guard and firing pin. Havelin Sales sells scope mounts for them

 

[Johnm1]

Havelin Sales sells scope mounts for them

Awesome site. Thanks!

If I want to be true classic I'd look for the 5-M4 mount.



But I think tip offs will do. I still need to find a suitable example.

I have a 45B which was a basket case rescue gun a

This is probably the way I'm going to go. I'm after the look and feel not necessarily exact authenticity. Truth is although the scope is almost as good as it was when new, it has a tiny exit pupil and limited eye relief. The fied of view at 100 yards is only 20 feet. It certainly won't be a fast shooter.

 

[Johnm1]

My wife thought I was kidding when I told her I needed to buy a rifle to put under this scope. I wasn't kidding.

Well, not a 45 and not a basket case. But it is a Mossberg and has the look and feel as a model 45 would. A 146B.



1949-1953 and could have worn this scope made in the 30's. The receiver is milled for tip off mounts. And that one probably saved me another $250.00. The original Mossberg mounts are pricey.

There's one problem though. This one came with some really nice target sights. Rear peep sight (convertible to iron sights) and a front sight insert. If I put a vintage set of tip off mounts I'll lose the use of those nice sights. I don't think see through sights were available in 1949-1953.





I've got some cleanup to do and I have yet to determine if the scope will in fact zero/hold zero. For that I'm going to need a set of 3/4" tip off mounts. Wonder if they are available in the see through version?

More pictures

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Nice pickup! Love the T-handle bolts.
I have those same sights on on my 46M. Im sure you noticed there are multiple front sight post options if you slide the hood off. I could never get the rear peep to work for me so I use the V-notch in the rear and ghost ring in the front.
Also, beware....the safety system on those is backwards withe red being "Stop" and green being "Go" instead of the more common Red for "Danger/Fire" and green being "Safe."

 

[Johnm1]

.the safety system on those is backwards withe red being "Stop" and green being "Go"

In this case I can make it right/conventional. Both the red/green inserts are missing. I'll replace them with the conventional colors. I did that to a Mossberg 410 shotgun that was also missing the inserts. It was so long ago I don't remember how I did it. I think I bought some colored beads with a stem on them and glued them in place.

 

[Johnm1]

Fact is I traded for this rifle. A New Haven (store brand Mossberg) 22 mag bolt action made in the 80's (I think) and a TOZ 18 22 LR. Neither one did I use. My trade was more than the asking price of $189.00 so I picked up a Philadelphia Derringer in the trade. Neither of which I shot anymore.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

In this case I can make it right/conventional. Both the red/green inserts are missing. I'll replace them with the conventional colors. I did that to a Mossberg 410 shotgun that was also missing the inserts. It was so long ago I don't remember how I did it. I think I bought some colored beads with a stem on them and glued them in place.

I think Havelin has 'em, but the beads would work too. Id be a little hesitant to switching the colors though since that could confuse folks familiar with Mossberg safeties.
I suppose if I were missing the dots, I would stamp the wood with an "S" and a "F" and then fill in the letters with white paint so as to be perfectly clear.

 

[Johnm1]

could confuse folks familiar with Mossberg safeties.

Didn't think about that. Of course I didn't know that when I did the 410.

 

[Johnm1]

When I bought this rifle I figured the scope would be a date mismatch and I was ok with that. But this site Has original documentation for the rifle

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/thre...-information-damguy-site.652769/#post-6069849

See #18

 

[Johnm1]

The darn thing holds 20 rounds of 22 LR or 30 rounds of 22 short. And yes, I got the model number wrong in the in my post above. It is a 146B.

 

[Johnm1]

Here is what the tip off mount/rings look like.

 

[Johnm1]

.the safety system on those is backwards withe red being "Stop" and green being "Go" instead of the more common Red for "Danger/Fire" and green being "Safe."

They must have changed at some point as the instructions indicate a conventional arrangement of the colors red and green.

 

[Johnm1]

I'll have to order the correct rings. These are temporary to see if the scope will zero, and hold zero. I had to make bushings so my one inch tip-off Rings would hold the three quarter inch scope.



The Rings are too tall and the bushings are oh, let's say, ugly. But functional. And this is only for a test fire to see if the scope is salvageable.

 

[Johnm1]

Yes, it holds a zero and can be adjusted and hold the adjustment. I started real close in case it was a mile off. It wasn’t.

First target


After adjustment

 

[Johnm1]

Pleasantly surprised. The scope functions well. Although I didn’t take it to 50 yards it performed well enough at 25 that I’ll invest in the proper rings for it. It can be adjusted and hold its zero. Dark and I can’t seem to get the crosshairs crisp. It was made in the early 30’s so at close to 90 years old I’ll give it a pass.

25 yards


25 yards with 22 CB shorts



I was running out of time at the range so I took the scope off to try the iron sights at 50 yards and I was even more pleased.

I didn’t bring a spotting scope so I tried a couple of different combinations of ammo and front sight. But I couldn’t see where my groups were hitting at 50 yards and couldn’t make adjustments.



50 yards peep sight and ring front sight. This was a little difficult to get the circle on the target, front sight circle, and rear peep to line up.


50 yards rear peep, front post same ammunition



50 yards rear peep front post 22 CB Shorts



50 yards 60 grain subsonics. Rear peep front post


50 yards rear peep front post Remington subsonics

 

[Johnm1]

I ordered the appropriate Weaver rings today. As you can see from the photo of them it is a one piece device that requires the disassembly of the scope to put into the rings. RFC has a really good post on all things Mossberg including the scopes. It contains the instructions for them. But being these scopes were sold attached to a rifle they were normally installed in the mount at the factory/. I suspect when sold separately they were attached to the mount at the factory. I'm gong to need some help from someone who has had these apart. Fortunately we don't have to deal with purging the scope body. But the logistics are what scares me.

 

[Johnm1]

For those that haven't followed my posts in the gunsmith forum I'll repeat a charactor flaw that I have exposed there.

I have a tendency to overthink things!

Disassembly of this scope isn't an issue. It just unscrews from the rear. The crosshairs are a unit and the brass insert contains two of the 3 other lenses. Also in a contained unit. These weren't charged with nitrogen.

 

[Johnm1]

I ordered the Weaver vintage 3/4" rings on Monday hoping they'd be here this weekend. But they weren't picked up until Thursday afternoon. Now scheduled to be delivered Monday.

I'm concerned that with the Weaver rings I'll have to remove the rear sight. I had hoped to leave them in place and have the option to remove the scope and pop up the rear post. We'll see when they arrive.

 

[Johnm1]

Not sure how it got here today but it did. FYI - the rear sight has a plate that rotates to reveal either a Peep, V Notch, or a Square Notch. The peep is too tall to fit under the tube. The bottom of the scope tube just barely touches the top of the square sight notch. It is forced into contact by the rear sight spring. So other than the force caused by the spring tension, I don't think I have an actual conflict.

The plan is to sight the iron sights with the scope off, lower the rear sight as low on the ramp as possible and mount and sight in the scope. If this works, by taking off the scope, I can still have sighted in iron sights as a back up in case there is an issue with the scope.

 

[dh1633pm]

Scope and mount on a Model 152 semi. Doesn’t say M4 that I can see.

 

[Johnm1]

Scope and mount on a Model 152 semi. Doesn’t say M4 that I can see.

View attachment 1086414 View attachment 1086415

Those appear to be vintage Mossberg rings. I have been unable to find those that weren't attached to a scope. I like that very much.

I assume you are familiar with this post on RFC

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/thre...-information-damguy-site.652769/#post-6071113

There are several pages on scopes.

 

[Johnm1]

The plan is to sight the iron sights with the scope off, lower the rear sight as low on the ramp as possible and mount and sight in the scope.

To say I'm pleased would be an understatement. Here is the best I did with the iron sights at 50 yards. I had no more movement to the right on the rear sight and didn't spend much time to get to this point. I was anxious to get to the scope.



50 yards with the scope


Without changing the scope these are various 22 LR loads at 25 yards. This one I used a 6 o'clock hold to see if the group was smaller sighting on a smaller target. And it seems to be true, aim small, miss small. EDIT: Well maybe not. re-looking at the groups, the center hold seems to be better. It seems when I aim at the center of the bullseye the target is the whole bullseye. When aim at the very bottom of the bullseye the target is a much smaller area.
25 yards, 6 o'clock hold


25 yards center hold




Oddly the 60 grain subsonics are still close to point of aim at 25 yards. This was using a center hold.



The 60 grain subsonics use a 22 short case with an elongated bullet to achieve the 22 LR COL and one has to cycle the bolt differently to reliably eject the shorter case.

Again, to say I'm pleased would be an understatement. I'm not that good of a shot.

Only one drawback with the scope. I am unable to release the yardage indicator.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Nice shootin!
Mine is phenomenally accurate as well, especially with CCI SV. Honestly, it gives my Winchester M52 a run for the money....at about 1/7 the price, lol.