Mossberg Shockwave and Remington Tac-14: highlighting gun law absurdity

[Jason_W]

While I don't fully understand the loophole that allows a PGO shotgun with a 14" barrel, what baffles me is that if I were to buy one and put a standard stock on it, I would be a felon, even though I would be increasing the OAL of the gun (and we all know that the longer the OAL, the less evil the gun ).

Or, shouldering a pistol with an arm brace is fine, but attaching a stock to a pistol is a felony. It's mind boggling.

 

[Acera]

It's not a loop hole as you describe. It is how the law is written, pretty easy to understand if you read the BATFE letters that Mossberg and others post.

The laws are written by politicians not gun guys, so there lies some of the rub.

.

 

[ATLDave]

The relevant law was passed in 1934. It's an absurdity that predates almost anyone who isn't in their 80's or older.

 

[wally]

The only purpose of these laws is to trip up the otherwise law abiding and inhibit gun ownership thru fear of violating these absurd laws.

Meanwhile, felons illegally in possession of firearms are routinely ignored until they do another crime -- like that New Black Panther Party guy who killed his room mate, shot a neighbor and a responding paramedic, and opened fire on arriving police before apparently killing himself in Dallas, " He was on the FBI’s radar, a spokesman for the bureau told NBC DFW".

 

[hdwhit]

Jason_W wrote:
While I don't fully understand the loophole that allows a PGO shotgun with a 14" barrel,...

I think we would all benefit if you were to post this as a question on the Legal section asking what the relevant statutes were that allowed a 14 inch barrel shotgun.

- - - -

As far as everyone who wants to be cynical about the way the statutes are drafted, if you think it is so easy to frame laws, try this: Draft a law to be inserted into the tax code to give a non-refundable tax credit equal to 20% of the wages someone pays men to walk the payor's dog on warm, clear days.

Bet you can't do it.

Hint: The Internal Revenue Code is Title 26 United States Code. A starting point might be Section 41 which was enacted to provide a tax credit for wages paid to people for researching new technolgies. Modifications since enactment to curtail abuse turned it into what the Tax Court recently called "one of the most comlex provisions" of the code.

 

[wally]

"one of the most comlex provisions" of the code

All these "complex" laws are fundamentally an attack on our Freedom. When it comes to taxes they should be nothing but a flat rate, everyone needs to have skin in the game. Taxing production (income or profits) vs. consumption (sales) is legitimate fodder for debate and lawmaking, but anything other than a flat rate is fundamentally unfair.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

The only thing to understand is that barrel length restrictions, and other seemingly senseless gun laws, are made to erode the second amendment.

 

[Jason_W]

The only thing to understand is that barrel length restrictions, and other seemingly senseless gun laws, are made to erode the second amendment.

Given that the NFA was drafted in the 1930's (the granola eating hippie peace-nic wasn't invented until 1958) , I doubt it was a nefarious conspiracy to take away everyone's guns and then ship them off to death camps. More likely is was hastily drafted, poorly thought out, knee-jerk legislation in response to a crime wave that was happening at the time.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Given that the NFA was drafted in the 1930's (the granola eating hippie peace-nic wasn't invented until 1958) , I doubt it was a nefarious conspiracy to take away everyone's guns and then ship them off to death camps. More likely is was hastily drafted, poorly thought out, knee-jerk legislation in response to a crime wave that was happening at the time.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I'm not sure how you jump from erosion of the 2A to death camps.
If you think the effort to infringe on our constitutional rights started in 1958 I would suggest you study history just a little bit.

 

[Solomonson]

Let's break down the law in layman's terms.

First, the receivers used to build Shockwaves have never been assembled into what's legally defined as a shotgun or rifle. It's not a conversion. They've never had a buttstock (folding/telescoping or not) attached to them -- they have a different part number. Therefore they are neither shotguns nor rifles which require barrels lengths of 18"+ and 16"+ respectfully in order to not fall into a special NFA category. They are "pistol grip only firearms" -- although the gov't doesn't refer to them as handguns, which makes sense as they cannot be concealed per the gov't's belief.

Further, because the Shockwave's overall length is greater than 26" overall (with the pistol or "Raptor" grip), and the gov't doesn't feel it can be concealed, it doesn't fall into the category of the BATFE's "Any Other Weapon" distinction.

It's just a "pistol grip only firearm." I don't own a Mossberg, but I think I might have to pick one of these up.

 

[kozak6]

Actually, it's not what the law is, it's what the ATF decided the law is. Not that it makes any more sense that way.

 

[jmorris]

As far as everyone who wants to be cynical about the way the statutes are drafted, if you think it is so easy to frame laws, try this: Draft a law to be inserted into the tax code to give a non-refundable tax credit equal to 20% of the wages someone pays men to walk the payor's dog on warm, clear days.

Bet you can't do it.

This is a joke right? There are people "we" have elected passing laws that they have not even read, much less understand the implications of. I'm pretty sure any of us could do that.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

ATF has the duty to enforce fuzzily written laws by drawing up rules and regulations by attempting to apply logic. Federally outlawing the making of a concealable weapon from a rifle or shotgun in the 1934 NFA was intended to support the 1920s-1930s model Uniform Pistol Acts at the state level. The language of the implementing law (devoid of intent) has created the confusing rules on Title II (1934 NFA) SBS, SBR, AOW and this new category of Title I (1968 GCA) "firearm" that is not a handgun nor a long gun nor a firearm made from a long gun, but a nonconcealable 14" barrel 26" overall firearm sold on a FF4473 with the same federal age restrictions as a handgun.

ATF has shown clarity at times. ATF has exempted certain curios and relics from the NFA: trapper special rifles mode before 1934 with barrels less than 16" and original Luger and Mauser pistols with detachable shoulder stocks. ATF legitimized a lot of privately held contraband on the premise the intent of the law was to control crime and the relic trapper specials and shoulder stocked pistols were more likely to be kept as collectibles than used as weapons.

 

[Jason_W]

Let's break down the law in layman's terms.

First, the receivers used to build Shockwaves have never been assembled into what's legally defined as a shotgun or rifle. It's not a conversion. They've never had a buttstock (folding/telescoping or not) attached to them -- they have a different part number. Therefore they are neither shotguns nor rifles which require barrels lengths of 18"+ and 16"+ respectfully in order to not fall into a special NFA category. They are "pistol grip only firearms" -- although the gov't doesn't refer to them as handguns, which makes sense as they cannot be concealed per the gov't's belief.

Further, because the Shockwave's overall length is greater than 26" overall (with the pistol or "Raptor" grip), and the gov't doesn't feel it can be concealed, it doesn't fall into the category of the BATFE's "Any Other Weapon" distinction.

It's just a "pistol grip only firearm." I don't own a Mossberg, but I think I might have to pick one of these up.

You nicely summed up how the two guns in question are legal. Thank you.

The whole system is still insane, though.

 

[Acera]

Kinda liking the look of this one, not one everyone else will have.

http://www.asylumweaponryllc.com/take-action-2/

Nothing but a slight difference from the standard Mossberg in 12 gauge, but has uniqueness.



Now if you want something different, they also offer (or once offered) a 20 gauge.

.



.

 

[Jason_W]

PGO shotguns don't really appeal to me personally. But, a standard stocked pump gun with a 14" barrel would be a mean HD or thick brush hunting weapon.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

These are cool just because they mock the NFA. But I don't have a practical use for it. If I bought one it would just be to get a tax stamp and put a stock on it for an SBS. At the MSRP that the Mossberg and the Remington are going for I'd rather go find a used shotgun in decent shape and SBS that instead.

 

[Solomonson]

I am curious why it took Remington and Mossberg so long to market these Pistol-Grip-Only firearms?

 

[Flechette]

The National Firearms Act of 1934 outlawed short barreled shotguns (without a bunch of regulations like tax stamps, etc.). In U.S. v. Miller Supreme Court upheld this ban...however most people do not know why.

Miller was a bootlegger and the government had a vested interest in prosecuting him. Note that he was shot and killed before the Supreme Court issued its ruling.

The argument that the Supreme Court used in its verdict (in summary)

1. The Second Amendment protects only the ownership of military-type weapons appropriate for use in an organized militia.
2. The "double barrel 12-gauge Stevens shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches in length, bearing identification number 76230" was never used in any militia organization.

Thus, using this logic full-auto AR-15s or similar weapons cannot be restricted because they *are* used by the military.

 

[Acera]

I am curious why it took Remington and Mossberg so long to market these Pistol-Grip-Only firearms?

They been around for a little while, don't know what sparked the interest. Maybe they changed the marketing and went for a market that is not flooded with overstock and and get folks interested in something most don't have. Got to do something to sell guns, and they have with this one. Can't find an online retailer that has them. I know of one local shop that has one or two, most around here are scared to stock them.

Here are some threads talking about them back in 2013
http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?16886-14-inch-barreled-non-NFA-shotgun!

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/14-inch-barreled-shotgun-without-tax-stamp.1481732/


TFB covered it two years ago.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/03/26/14-mossberg-non-nfa-scattergun/

 

[Solomonson]

They been around for a little while, don't know what sparked the interest. Maybe they changed the marketing and went for a market that is not flooded with overstock and and get folks interested in something most don't have. Got to do something to sell guns, and they have with this one. Can't find an online retailer that has them. I know of one local shop that has one or two, most around here are scared to stock them.

Here are some threads talking about them back in 2013
http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?16886-14-inch-barreled-non-NFA-shotgun!

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/14-inch-barreled-shotgun-without-tax-stamp.1481732/


TFB covered it two years ago.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/03/26/14-mossberg-non-nfa-scattergun/

Yeah, good points...

 

[Solomonson]

These are cool just because they mock the NFA. But I don't have a practical use for it. If I bought one it would just be to get a tax stamp and put a stock on it for an SBS. At the MSRP that the Mossberg and the Remington are going for I'd rather go find a used shotgun in decent shape and SBS that instead.

I agree...

 

[kozak6]

I am curious why it took Remington and Mossberg so long to market these Pistol-Grip-Only firearms?

AOW's are very poorly defined. There is actually no barrel length or overall length specification. The ATF just made up the bit about 26" overall length for consistency with the rest of the NFA.

If they wanted to, they could change their mind and decide that such a firearm must also have an 18" barrel for yet greater consistency with the NFA. That wouldn't have been unreasonable, and I'm honestly shocked they didn't go that way.

I suspect that this is what Remington and Mossberg were afraid of provoking.

Considering the negative attention given to certain other government agencies, Ronald Turk's "leaked" white paper implicitly suggests that the ATF is so terrified of the current administration that they are at least going to pretend to be reasonable. For now. And perhaps the ATF should be scared, considering their misconduct during the previous administration.

Allowing these non-NFA firearms to proliferate is part of keeping their head down.

Or, at least that's my guess.

 

[bearcreek]

As far as everyone who wants to be cynical about the way the statutes are drafted, if you think it is so easy to frame laws, try this: Draft a law to be inserted into the tax code to give a non-refundable tax credit equal to 20% of the wages someone pays men to walk the payor's dog on warm, clear days.

Bet you can't do it.

The "statutes" are a straight up unconstitutional infringement on the rights of the American people, so I'll go ahead and remain cynical about the way they're drafted.

 

[Tirod]

Congress delegated the authority to write regulation to the ATF, so railing about elected public officials not passing intelligently written laws is useless. They simply don't pass laws much at all - they leave it to the ATF to interpret as they see fit, and it's based on the 1934 NFA which was originally intended to outlaw handguns completely.

As it moved thru Congress it was changed - just like most laws (Obamacare/Trumpcare, anyone?) and the result is the mess we have now. Your representative or senator doesn't have much of anything to do with it and prefers to leave well enough alone as it keeps him from touching the "third rail" in politics. It's a highly charged issue and he/she sees nothing of advantage being on one side or the other in the debate with his constituents. For the most part it's just a few coastal politicians who exacerbate the situation and it's actually been a issue of declining interest in the last twenty years.

That leaves the ATF to figure it out. They do as good a job as any other agency, no different than the EPA or DOT. Same rules govern making new rules with whatever influence the POTUS might bear on it.

As for how to make one of these guns it goes to the virgin receiver, same as for AR pistols. I don't see it being any cheaper converting one from a rifle/shotgun and going thru the ATF Stamp process. The gun costs the same retail or parts, so you ADD the cost of a $200 Stamp to the mix plus legal fees to cover it's transfer to your heirs when you pass away. That is entirely the reason to make these for the market - the shooter who wants one knows that it's a short range weapon and with some practice on the range he can hit the target at 10-21 feet just as well with no stock - and no extra fees, too.

The traditional shooting community is the one hung up on stocks and these shotguns are the workaround not only with the laws we have but also with close quarters self defense. Our growing urban environment is the real key, when more people live in higher density areas, more weapons to counter increasing human friction come into play. It's no different than the response to urbanization we saw in the late 1800's - canes, bicycle guns, and daggers were answers in those days. The problem is that they are all responses to impolite and even predatory society, but politicians who attempt to outlaw them use the excuse of trying to make society more polite.

It doesn't work, it just hands them more power in disarming society - and from there, they slowly take our rights away with no ability to fix the issues. If anyone need a current event to see it, look at Venezuela in the last ten years. The government is now in the business of handing out guns to groups which only support the government now. Classic 1930's socialism AKA the Brown Shirts of Nazi Germany.

In the face of that a pistol shotgun would be a nice thing to have. We can - they can't.