Mossberg Silver Reserve O/U Update

[ArmedBear]

Since I have posted that owners of the Silver Reserve at my range have universally liked it, I think I should give this update.

The reputed problem of firing pins scratching the surface of the receiver is quite real, and apparently it leads to a broken firing pin and a jammed gun, and it happens WAY too soon in the life of the gun.

The owner I spoke to last night (one of the guys who really liked his) said that it's on the way to Mossberg, and I asked him to tell me what they did and how long it took. He said that parts are not available, and he's once again without a shotgun. He said that the same thing happened to someone else in the club, on the same weekend -- that is second-hand information to me, so take it as such. I have no reason not to believe it, however, since this guy was actually a bit defensive about his gun, despite the problems with it.

He was also asking if I was thinking about selling my 870; I said I wasn't, and that, whatever else I bought, I'd keep it as a backup gun and to use for hunting in dirty or wet conditions.

So anyway, I'll have to change my response regarding the Mossberg (Khan) O/U. This guy had 2200 rounds through it (he counted boxes and reloads); it broke within 4 months of range use. And parts are apparently unavailable. The only way to get it fixed was to send it back for warranty service.

Even with free warranty service, what happens after the next few thousand rounds? And the next?

Seems like it's worth paying the extra for Remington repeaters, Beretta autos and doubles, Brownings, Ruger doubles (somewhat rare but VERY well-made and not too steep) etc. They may require service, but not after 2000 rounds (a tiny number for a shotgun), and if they do, the parts are readily available. You can even carry spares, if there's a need.

At least that's my opinion. There's no free lunch, apparently. Might as well get an 870 to start with, and save up for something more expensive, rather than trying to get an O/U for cheap. You'll never regret having the 870 in the closet, anyway.

 

[TrapperReady]

There's no free lunch, apparently. Might as well get an 870 to start with, and save up for something more expensive, rather than trying to get an O/U for cheap. You'll never regret having the 870 in the closet, anyway.

Wise words. Nearly every time I have thought I've "saved money", it's usually cost me more in the long run.

Thanks for the update AB.

 

[ArmedBear]

One more comment...

I have a cheap 870 Express, which cost half what the Mossberg did, but still works like new after a lot of rounds and some abuse. I'd now like Wingmasters also, in 2 gauges. And the Mossberg owner was complaining about the high price of the Wingmaster, which costs about the same as the O/U.

But there are shooters at the same range with Wingmasters that have been going strong for 30 years straight with nothing but cleaning and oiling... I think that makes them worth $450-500 new.

There is such thing as an inexpensive shotgun that's a good deal. IMO it's called the Remington 870, same as it's been called since 1950.

But I don't think I'll buy a double gun for under a grand. There's no need to spend $3000 for one (unless you're a good competitive shooter, and then you'll know it), but I'd rather save up and buy one for $1500 and keep it forever than wish I had my $500 back...

YMMV.

(I also have an old BT-99, a specialized gun that's really good for one thing only, that's still going strong, but the questions about the Mossberg O/U were more from those who want a general-purpose shotgun.)

 

[Ed/Pa]

The original post makes no sense to me? Why would he send the gun back to mossberg, when it plainly states to send it to maverick arms for repair?
Parts unavailable? This may be true locally as it is relativley a new model.
I'm sure maverick has the parts, and they also have a direct phone line.
I would think a call would have cleared this up? As for the firing pin dilema, if this is going to be a common problem, I would have to ask what could be done to correct it. Let's face it , buying another shotgun is one way to solve the problem, but before I went and did that I'd have to ask a lot of questions.

 

[ArmedBear]

Clarification, then.

1. If you look on their websites, the service dept. shipping addresses for Mossberg and Maverick are the same. The guy sent the gun to whatever address the rep on the phone told him to send it to. What does it matter?

2. Mossberg TOLD him the parts were unavailable, when he spoke with them over the phone. Why would they tell him anything but the truth? "Not available locally" means "not available in the USA," it seems.

3. I'm not saying to buy a gun every time yours breaks. I'm saying that it's best to avoid buying a gun that will break, if you can. And that there's no free lunch. An O/U just costs more, if you want a good one.

Followup: I spoke with the Silver Reserve owner last week. Mossberg is replacing the entire gun. That's a good thing, except for the fact that the same problem appears to happen with many or all of them, if they're shot a fair amount. They're made in Turkey, not by Mossberg, so I'm not sure that they have a solution to the problem. We'll see if it happens to his new one.

If it were me, I'd sell it while it was new, and use the money for another gun. I don't know what he's going to do.

 

[Hoppy590]

maverick is mossberg they are the same company

ya ya armed bear we get it. 870's. ( you should buy stock in remington)

 

[ArmedBear]

I have only one 870. I do not own any Remington stock; maybe I should buy some. On the other hand, can they really make a lot of money building guns that don't break? I just bought a 35-year-old 1100 that works like new. Where's the profit in that?

I'm making an assumption when I make the recommendation to get a workingman's pump gun as a first shottie: the Silver Reserve really appeals to new shotgunners, because it appears to be a real bargain. My recommendation is to buy a less-glamorous pump gun, because the two dominant American pumps really ARE a bargain if you want a shotgun you can shoot for a long time with no worries, and still pay under $300 for it. Let the other guys buy the fancy-looking shopqueens; learn from their mistakes. When you're ready to buy an O/U, you'll have a better idea of what you want. Personally, I think the best bargains in the long term are from a couple of companies starting with a B, even though the prices seem high when you first see them.

But a 500 and an 870 will each do their duty quite well. (Bummer Winchester quit making the 1300; it was nice-looking, as well as smooth. I'm betting it will reappear in the next few years, somewhere.)

Aside... I just saw the cutest thing at the gun shop! When the bear cub grows old enough, I'll have to get one. A tiny little Mossberg 500 in .410, but it was smaller than any "youth" gun I've ever seen. The thing looked like it would fit a 6-year-old. Every kid should have one!

 

[Ed/Pa]

Armed bear.sorry you seemed to take offense to my post. I have not checked their website, but in their owners manual I seen Mossberg International as being in New Haven Ct. and repair service as Maverick Arms in Elpaso Tx.

You may have guessed from the above that I also own a silver reserve (just purchased) and havent shot yet, so I'm a little alarmed to hear that they have no parts?? "not available in the USA" from their own repair center??

Cant for the life of me figure why a repair center would not have parts? Or why they would replace the gun as opposed to having parts on hand to fix it??

As for the side comments on 870's ..I already own one. Good gun., but its not an O/U!! ... Own a Browning high end model O/U too ....Consider this ....Do you have to spend $2000. for your wife to shoot an occassional round of skeet or trap? If thats the case , then its a sad state of affairs for the new comers or those on a limited budget. In any case it is disturbing to have read this news and appreciate hearing from other "owners" who may be incurring any problems.........Thanks

 

[ArmedBear]

I didn't take offense; I was a bit surprised by the message, though. The reason I posted it was because I'd posted positive things about the gun before, but got new information. My intent was to assist those who were making buying decisions, with what information I had, each time. I have been grateful when others have done the same.

It takes a good few thousand rounds for the problem with the Silver Reserve (Khan) to be an issue.

If someone shoots 20 boxes a year, it'll be a while before it matters.

WRT skeet and trap, an O/U has its advantages, especially if you reload, though it's surely not the only gun that will work. The Stoeger O/U's (Brazilian) do seem to offer a lot more durability for your $500.

 

[ArmedBear]

its a sad state of affairs for the new comers or those on a limited budget.

Not really. For less money, the new Mossberg 930 semiauto is a nice, durable gun, with nice balance. Pump guns work GREAT for trap. Used 1100s are readily available, and can be optimized for trap and skeet with a barrel change, or just left alone.

An O/U isn't the only gun that works at the range.

 

[Ed/Pa]

more on the reserve

When I said sad state of affairs, I was speaking O/U's only.
Didnt mean O/U's are the only guns for trap or skeet. They just seem to be the easiest to both load and opperate for newbies, short of a single barrel topper (which one has to cock a hammer on). Keeping with the mossberg silver reserve, I'm still in awe as to "No Parts".
Broken firing pins can be made and hardened by most smiths. "Scratching the surface of the receiver " can you enlarge on that? Is the pin off center , and when you say surface just where are we taking about? The firing pins protroud outward to strike the center of the shell so I'm confused as to where else they would make contact inside the receiver itself?.........Thanks

 

[ArmedBear]

You know, I saw the scoring on the back surface of the chamber before the problem led to the pin breaking. But I didn't pay enough attention; it's been a while.

I think it was the lower firing pin hitting the steel where the two chambers join, between the two barrels. I'll have to check.

It's true; break-action guns are easier for a newbie to operate safely. Baikal (Remington Spartan) actually sells a cheap trap gun, with a single barrel and a striker, not an exposed hammer, and a nice rib. Not the prettiest thing, but it has a 30" barrel with porting and functions well.

Stoeger O/U's do seem to be a good bet. The five or so guys I know who have them have used them a lot in the field and at the range, without any trouble. They're a bit on the tall side, but no more than a Citori. And tall O/U receivers tend to offer more durability for less money.

A good perusal of a recent Shotgun Sports magazine article about O/U hinge maintenance will give one pause, though. The things are actually more delicate than they seem, in general.

 

[Ed/Pa]

Wow, thats pretty interesting. That bottom pin must have been way off to stike that high up. Sounds like the hole in the receiver got enlarged to cause that, which would make sense why he was told the gun would be replaced.
That would mean the reciever was too soft. I hope that's not the case........Like to hear more on what you find out.
PS ......I looked at the spartans both O/U and single barrel..dont mean to offend anybody but they are very crude. Also didnt care for the break action of the single with its trigger gard latching mechanism. Not sure ,but I dont believe thay offer tubes for the single either.I happen to be a Rem fan..but was not at all impressed with their spartan offerings.

 

[ArmedBear]

Spartans are, indeed, crude. Built strong, though. Choke tubes, maybe not so much. Aftermarket tubes can really add to the price!

The trap guns do have choke tubes, but they cost a lot more than the basic models.

The Topper Deluxe Classic is a perfectly adequate trap gun, for $200 new, which I think is a tad less than the nicer version of the Russian Remington, for a trusted, US-made gun that's simple in design, but not crude in execution.



Things just get a lot more complicated when you add skeet to the mix.

 

[Ed/Pa]

From all I've read , firing the gun or rounds put through it......have nothing to do with denting and eventual broken bottom pins. It appears the culprit is improper assembly and dry firing a decocked gun.

 

[ArmedBear]

dry firing a decocked gun

How do you do that? What does that mean?

I'm not big on dry-firing anything without a snap cap in it. Still, doesn't the gun cock when you open it? Shouldn't the pin be retracted when the gun is opened, even if you DO dry-fire it?

Does the design rely on the presence of a spent shell in the chamber to deflect the firing pin away from the chamber face?!? This is a highly undesirable characteristic in a trap gun, since people, especially new shooters, accidentally dry-fire the empty barrel all the time.

 

[Ed/Pa]

My understanding is that these people are breaking the action open and dry firing the gun. Why I could'nt tell you. With doing that the firing pins are exposed and the actions are being forced shut. Or same thing with dry firing the gun with action open , then taking the gun apart. The next time the gun is assembled the action is slammed shut on the exposed firing pins, if you do not move the top lever all the way to the right. Dry firing the gun, with action closed does not seem to be a problem provided the action is fully cocked again when opened.

 

[Ed/Pa]

A quote from another source: ........"make sure you hold the top lever to the right whenever you attach the barrels to the receiver". The bottom of the monoblock is very thin and very soft and dents easily. "
IF THE GUN HAS BEEN DRY FIRED WHILE OPEN,THE MONOBLOCK WILL STRIKE THE LOWER FIRING PIN UPON CLOSING THE ACTION".
This appears to be the major weakness in this firearm.



Reading this simple discription may prevent a lot of problems and answer a lot of questions.

 

[ArmedBear]

breaking the action open and dry firing the gun

I'm not buying it, but I'll ask them.

At least one of the guys I know has been shooting shotguns for nearly as long as he could walk, and he's got well over 20 years in the military. That would be a rather odd thing to do, at least to do more than once, and after you've noticed the problem.

He just thought he could get a good range gun for (relatively) cheap. Last I saw, he'd forgotten that idea, and had a nice Winchester with some custom work done on it.

 

[ArmedBear]

"make sure you hold the top lever to the right whenever you attach the barrels to the receiver". The bottom of the monoblock is very thin and very soft and dents easily. "

Ah. Now that is something an experienced shotgunner might not do, but makes sense. I'll buy that one.

I push the lever all the way to the right when I assmble my break-action, because I figure any time metal isn't slamming against metal is a time that the gun isn't getting any excess wear and tear. I didn't think about the firing pin; I don't think it sticks out much on my gun even if dry-fired (which makes reassembling the gun a bit of a PITA anyway, with a foreend ejector spring, so there's another reason not to do it).

"Thin and soft and dents easily" aren't characteristics find particularly desirable in a wife gun. The car's bad enough.

 

[Ed/Pa]

I'll reserve comments about wives........lol..
when I first got my Browning Citori I found it didnt like assembly without pushing the top lever to the right, so I've made it standard practice. Not that all people do this, but apparantley you'd better with the Silver Reserve or your asking for trouble.

 

[azflyman]

I have a couple of O/U's and a SxS and I have never assembled any of them without pushing the lever to the right. My guns just don't like not doing that and I found resistance when trying the first time with my first O/U so I just don't. I am not sure if I would damage anything but I never want to find out either. I make it practice not to force anything on any gun. Snap caps are too cheap to dry fire a gun and risk pin damage.

az

 

[New_geezer]

There are pretty extensive threads about this gun over at shotgunworld.com under the "I love Mossberg" forum. The guns are shipped decocked, that is the firing pin is exposed. This is so the springs are in a relaxed position during a long period of inactivity. Whoever first assembles the guns doesn't bother to read the instructions about positioning the lever to reset the pins and just mounts the front end and snaps the gun closed dragging the monoblock over the exposed firing pin. Is this a training issue - sure, but why is that metal so soft?

JMHO but after extensive reading, and looking at the various Turkish guns I could get a look at, I don't think Turkish guns in general are quite ready for prime time. Maybe in a couple of years the kinks will be worked out of the quality control system and they really will be a good value but I just don't see the consistency yet. And as previous posts indicate - the support system doesn't appear to be fully online yet if/when you do have problems.

Personally I can't afford to be the guinea pig for testing any company's products.

But for those adventurous types - Academy Sports sells a Turkish O/U that seems to get pretty consistent positive comments made by Yildiz. Have not seen one myself all info is second hand, but if the chance arises I'd check them out.

I own a Baikal (same as Spartan) O/U and must be a rare example of someone who got a pretty nicely finished gun. I've seen a few others in the store but have to agree most examples are rather crude. But as commonly observed they are strongly built and durable. For people with more time than money and a modicum of skill - they can be refinished and made to look pretty sharp.

 

[ArmedBear]

I doubt that the problem happens because the user has done this only once, when first assembling the gun.

I often do stupid things when first assembling things I've never seen before. If they break under circumstances that are easily foreseeable and don't involve active destruction by a frustrated user, I'd call that a "design flaw," not a "training issue."

 

[Ed/Pa]

No, it isnt just once. For instance, if you dry fire the gun then disassemble it, you have exposed the firing pins again. Now take it out of the take down case and assemble the gun without moving the top lever to the right and you just forced the block down on the firing pin again. For a guy who uses a takedown case this could happen every time he uses the gun.

Knowing this gun doesnt have "browning quality" steel and reading the simple instruction booklet that comes with the gun telling you to move the top lever to the right each time you attach the barrel set should be enough. As for their service, from what I've read they have been replacing guns. Stands to reason, that after you've worn a groove in the block or elongated the firing pin holes in the receiver, that's about all they can do.......

As for bialkil/ Spartan..they've had their share of issues and bad press also.
But that's not what we are discussing here or is it?