One other thing. You said your eye was almost in the scope. Could be a parallax problem associated with shifting around trying to get comfortable behind the scope. One day when you are dry firing move your head around and check for parallax. My money is on trigger control for 1 flyer but parallax is always an issue for me too.
Most likely cause of horizontal flyers?
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Turkeytider
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LOL!! Yeah, that`s pretty much it!!
Varminterror
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I see this so often, and I always get disappointed by it. Accuracy is a matter of shooting enough shots to produce a round group, and simply clicking the dial to center it on target. Any rifle can be accurate. It always feels like such a cop out. Just say what it is - hunting at short range offers large targets, so the demand for precision is reduced. It’s nothing to do with a juxtaposition of accuracy vs. precision.
Turkeytider
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I guess we`re all entitled to our own opinions ! One of the things that makes this country great!! I can go along with it being easier to hit a bigger target at closer ranges, sure.
redneck2
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In the FWIW category.....
Back a couple lifetimes ago, I had a rifle that had an erratic trigger. Gritty, long pull. Think “dragging an anvil over gravel”. To test it, I pulled the trigger by putting my thumb against the back of the trigger guard and squeezing my trigger finger and thumb together so I didn’t torque the rifle due to the heavy, long pull.
Now I will not own a rifle that does not have a decent trigger pull. I find it exceptionally difficult to get decent groups otherwise
I’ve found that, with heavier recoiling rifles and particularly slug guns, it’s easy to jerk the trigger. Now, jerk is a relative term. Moving the barrel the thickness of a few sheets of paper can move the point of impact by over an inch.
I have had several VX-III’s. As noted, at higher magnification the eye relief is marginal. If I thought I was likely to get whacked and maybe gashed open, it would be difficult to maintain form. It seems the newer VX-3 series is significantly better
Back a couple lifetimes ago, I had a rifle that had an erratic trigger. Gritty, long pull. Think “dragging an anvil over gravel”. To test it, I pulled the trigger by putting my thumb against the back of the trigger guard and squeezing my trigger finger and thumb together so I didn’t torque the rifle due to the heavy, long pull.
Now I will not own a rifle that does not have a decent trigger pull. I find it exceptionally difficult to get decent groups otherwise
I’ve found that, with heavier recoiling rifles and particularly slug guns, it’s easy to jerk the trigger. Now, jerk is a relative term. Moving the barrel the thickness of a few sheets of paper can move the point of impact by over an inch.
I have had several VX-III’s. As noted, at higher magnification the eye relief is marginal. If I thought I was likely to get whacked and maybe gashed open, it would be difficult to maintain form. It seems the newer VX-3 series is significantly better
barnfrog
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I found that dry fire practice made a huge difference in my groups. When we were working from home 100% of the time I did it every day at lunch time. When we went back to the office and I slacked off my groups got worse again. I try to do at least three sessions a week.
I use an exercise someone else posted somewhere here, I think. Set up the gun on the bipod and balance a small coin on the end of the barrel. Goal is to get on target and make a clean trigger press without the coin moving, or at least not falling off.
Don't use bags under the front of the gun for this exercise; they're too forgiving. Likewise, a dime is more sensitive than a quarter, and therefore will help you achieve greater improvement.
Nature Boy
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In my case it was something simple.
I added more sand to the ears of my rear bag and it cut my horizontal variation in half.
I added more sand to the ears of my rear bag and it cut my horizontal variation in half.
JFrank
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The other half went vertical...
jrmiddleton425
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If I shot that group, I wouldn't suspect anything other than I jerked the trigger. I would be more surprised if I DIDN'T.
I'm just going to put this out there...you're firing a 5-round group at 100 yards with a spread of 3 inches by 3 inches. Two shots are touching each other, and those are within two inches of the cold bore shot.
I'd call it good if I shot that group with a box-stock Ruger M77. Maybe drop your elevation a couple of clicks.
I'm just going to put this out there...you're firing a 5-round group at 100 yards with a spread of 3 inches by 3 inches. Two shots are touching each other, and those are within two inches of the cold bore shot.
I'd call it good if I shot that group with a box-stock Ruger M77. Maybe drop your elevation a couple of clicks.
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Jim,I thought you were the English teacher and you were grading someone's post.Up too early going to bed too late.
A good experiment that may help would require the help of a friend.Have them hand you the rifle and you set it down,settle in and shoot it.Tell your friend to put a round in the chamber(be safe!)one time,but not the next.Or the next couple.Or load it twice in a row.The key is that you don't know if it's going to go bang(well,boom,it's a 338)or not.You'll very likely shoot it better,maybe a lot better because your concentration will be more focused on the basics rather than where the bullet's going to hit or if the rifle's going to kick you.Beware-a flinch exposed to a friend who can't keep a secret can get you laughed at.
The infamous cold bore shot can be prevented in most rifles by starting with a lightly cleaned DRY barrel.Run a patch or two through it with a good bore cleaner to get the worst of the carbon fouling out of it and then run at least 5 dry clean patches through it.Carbon fouling oxidizes and gets chalky and almost gritty.This tends to raise pressure and velocity on the first dirty(cold don't matter)shot out of the barrel,causing it to hit usually a bit high.I have proven this with a good chronograph and a few very accurate rifles many times.One of them,a very accurate 223 just last week shot a .185 inch 5 shot group at 100 yards.The barrel had been deep cleaned and the group was shot with no foulers.The cold bore shot is real,but preventable.
The infamous cold bore shot can be prevented in most rifles by starting with a lightly cleaned DRY barrel.Run a patch or two through it with a good bore cleaner to get the worst of the carbon fouling out of it and then run at least 5 dry clean patches through it.Carbon fouling oxidizes and gets chalky and almost gritty.This tends to raise pressure and velocity on the first dirty(cold don't matter)shot out of the barrel,causing it to hit usually a bit high.I have proven this with a good chronograph and a few very accurate rifles many times.One of them,a very accurate 223 just last week shot a .185 inch 5 shot group at 100 yards.The barrel had been deep cleaned and the group was shot with no foulers.The cold bore shot is real,but preventable.
Turkeytider
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I just can`t put a gun away knowing there`s carbon and junk piled up in the barrel. I`m 73 and too old to change I guess. From my earliest days I can recall my dad saying, " You clean that gun, boy? Take care of your equipment and it`ll take care of you." I`m sure the time he spent in the Pacific in WWII served to reinforce that ! As for cold bore first shots out of a clean barrel, I`ve not personally seen anything that I thought was a direct result as far as accuracy was concerned. Then again, I`m not getting distraught by not putting a group inside a nickel, either, shooting for " minute of coyote " with a .223 Savage.
If you keep a bore clean you won't often have the first shot out by much if any.I got a lot more careful about how my guns are put away when I figured out why the first shot was always about an inch off,usually high.Put it away with carbon fouling in the bore and look at it two weeks later and you will see the oxidization I'm talking about.Sometimes I see blue streaks of copper fouling next to the lands,and I know that's not good.Chrome moly barrels can actually get pitted from such neglect.You and your Dad are right,they need to be clean.My best barrels rarely need anything more than a couple of wet patches and several dry ones.Production barrels need more TLC than customs IME.
Turkeytider
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I also don`t brush scrub the barrel every time, but I do always run a couple of patches of Hoppe`s #9, let it sit for a little while, then patch it out before a light oil and dry patch. I figure I can stay ahead of really bad stuff. I know some folks swear by waiting until their accuracy deteriorates, but I just can`t do it.
elktrout
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All the replies about trigger control, consistent positioning and cheek weld, as well as breath control are dead on. Most of us have experienced the frustrating horizontal flyer. One tip on trigger control I was taught many years ago is this: as you begin to apply pressure on the trigger, think "right there" (the cross hair's point on the target). When I do everything right and use this thought control, I shoot my best groups.
One last tip. I found that different targets can lead to flyers more than others. Everyone's eyes are different. But, I shoot my best groups with a target that has a white background, black outer circle, and a white inner circle. Maybe better described as a white inner circle (the white paper) of 3/4" to 1" diameter, surrounded by a black circle maybe 1/2 inch thick, all on a white piece of paper. It may work for you.
One last tip. I found that different targets can lead to flyers more than others. Everyone's eyes are different. But, I shoot my best groups with a target that has a white background, black outer circle, and a white inner circle. Maybe better described as a white inner circle (the white paper) of 3/4" to 1" diameter, surrounded by a black circle maybe 1/2 inch thick, all on a white piece of paper. It may work for you.
45/30-06OKIE
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Trigger pull is your number one cause of left or right misses if you are using the same ammo and your scope is tight to the gun and not loose. Different ammo can cause "fliers" so try using one type at a time if you are mixing ammo up. Also, are the handloads yours or someone else's? I wouldn't trust someone else's handloads unless they were a good friend or family member just FYI.
Yes, the handloads are mine. I do think the cause is trigger control and have been practicing carefully pulling the trigger directly backward. Apparently I have large hands with long fingers, even though I'm not a big guy. That tends to makes it so that I feel most natural on the grip where the first pad of my trigger finger is past the trigger. I have to work on gripping the rifle differently so the first pad is always on the trigger (when I'm ready to shoot).
45/30-06OKIE
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Hmm, is this rifle equipped with a replaceable pistol grip (like a chassis) or is it a standard bolt action hunting rifle setup? If it is replaceable, I'd try a bigger pistol grip maybe.
Standard hunting rifle. The .338WM and the .300WM I posted about are Ruger Hawkeyes and the .25-06 is a Savage Axis.
45/30-06OKIE
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Ahh, those M77s are really nice. Me and dad (we have an FFL and sell at gunshows) got and sold one in 6.5PRC with a Hornady die set and it was slick AF.
have you shot any groups since you started this thread a few weeks ago?
there are three ways to fix your grip when you have too much finger. I have some threads about this but one way is to rotate your grip back. it may help to move to a thumb-forward style.
a second way is to focus on putting a 90* bend in your knuckle closest to your palm, while keeping the knuckle closest to your fingernail straight. trigger "pull" would be entirely actuated by moving the 90* knuckle another degree, as opposed to what most people do which is using the same muscles as they would tightening their grip on a baseball bat, which has the effect of pulling the trigger to one side or the other. using the 90* bend ensures a straight pull back, but most people don't have the strength to pull an 8lb trigger that way. if you have a 1-1.5 lb trigger, it seems just right.
third way is to change your equipment. My preferred trigger for many years was the x-treme mod22 or cg jackson style, shown below. The trigger can be adjusted by sliding the shoe forward or backward on the arm. and you could also flip the shoe so that it is curved or straight. while there are several pros/cons for curved/straight, another difference is that straight is farther forward, which may be more comfy for shooters with long fingers.
other high quality triggers like bix n andy have similar feature.
Yes, I've been to the range once and shot some new loads with 150 gr TTSX in my .300WM. I tested 3 shots each of 6 charge weights. The 3 lowest charge weights had a good deal of spread. The three higher charge weights tightened up and looked "round", that is the lengths of the triangle sides were roughly equal. I shot one round from each charge weight, then the second round of each, etc. I also cleaned the barrel in between each shot, so there was little or no difference in barrel fouling for any of the shots and the barrel stayed cool.have you shot any groups since you started this thread a few weeks ago?
there are three ways to fix your grip when you have too much finger. I have some threads about this but one way is to rotate your grip back. it may help to move to a thumb-forward style.
a second way is to focus on putting a 90* bend in your knuckle closest to your palm, while keeping the knuckle closest to your fingernail straight. trigger "pull" would be entirely actuated by moving the 90* knuckle another degree, as opposed to what most people do which is using the same muscles as they would tightening their grip on a baseball bat, which has the effect of pulling the trigger to one side or the other. using the 90* bend ensures a straight pull back, but most people don't have the strength to pull an 8lb trigger that way. if you have a 1-1.5 lb trigger, it seems just right.
third way is to change your equipment. My preferred trigger for many years was the x-treme mod22 or cg jackson style, shown below. The trigger can be adjusted by sliding the shoe forward or backward on the arm. and you could also flip the shoe so that it is curved or straight. while there are several pros/cons for curved/straight, another difference is that straight is farther forward, which may be more comfy for shooters with long fingers.
other high quality triggers like bix n andy have similar feature.
I really focused on putting my finger tip on the trigger and pulling straight back. I also took extra time to get the rifle situated on the rest/bag such that the natural point of aim was on the bullseye. I loaded up a box of the load that grouped smallest and am going back to the range this week or next to sight it in for hunting season.
What do you mean by "thumb forward" grip?
So you mean not wrapping my thumb around the stock?
JFrank
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That would be close to free recoiling and tough to maintain consistency on a big caliber rifle.
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