Mother and Daughter Slain in National Forest

[MBane666]

When I first did my book, TRAIL SAFE, about being safe while in the backcountry, I was surprised at the number of "unlikely" people who queried me about carrying a gun on the trail. I got an excellent review in BACKPACKER as well as HANDGUNS (probably a first).

You can still get copies, and I'm working on a revised version with more specific information on choosing a carry gun and holster system.

Michael B

 

[Sir Aardvark]

Something similar happened at a trailhead to the Cleveland National Forest here in Southern California.

Nobody died in this one, although the perpetrators who did it thought they killed the guy and left him for dead in the trunk of his car. The victim was bashed repeatedly on the head with a rock. Also, the victim's 2 under-aged girl friends were raped.

I have a CCW, but even if I didn't, I would still travel there with a firearm.

And I have to mention this too - we have had 3 fairly recent incidents of mountain lions attacking joggers, hikers, and mountain bikers. 2 people died and were partially consumed; 1 person survived because her friend would not let go of her as the mountain lion dragged her through the shrubs.

Of all the ways to end your life on earth - to be consumed by some wild animal is not something that someone really contemplates - at least in America.

 

[Husker1911]

When far from law enforcement, I would carry a sidearm to ward off snakes, be they standing or crawling....................

 

[LAK]

"At first they thought they were using the bathroom because they were hunched over in the fetal position," Anne Keller said. "The closer they got, they realized they weren't alive."

I think they mean in a sort of sitting position with the knees up, head down and arms around the shins - not laying on their sides. I think a bear or other animal attack is out of the question.

They said the condition of the victims' bodies made it difficult to discern they were women, according to the Kellers. The couple appeared "visibly upset," the Kellers said

.
This is both interesting and odd. The murders - and whatever else was perpetrated on these women - were carried out in the space of a few hours. It begs the question; rather than going to the time and trouble to mutilate or disfigure them to such a degree (if this was the case), risking detection - why they were not simply dragged well off the trail and buried, or covered with debris.

Authorities had to haul the bodies several miles on foot because the sheriff's helicopter was grounded by foul weather, Niebusch said.

Not to fault the Sheriff's prudence - but is this saying that there is no all-weather helo rescue capability in this area from the National Guard, Coast Guard or any other well equipped organization??

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[Mike128]

On another forum for hiking there is always a debate on, "carry guns or not". Aside from the anti's usual lines of you are not trained, irresponsible, and dangerous comments, the one that really catches me eye was the "you don't need a gun on the trail". I wonder if this story and the many others that seem to be popping up will convince them that the world is a dangerous place. But don't hold your breath.

 

[Kharn]

LAK:

Not to fault the Sheriff's prudence - but is this saying that there is no all-weather helo rescue capability in this area from the National Guard, Coast Guard or any other well equipped organization??

Why risk a helo in foul weather to remove bodies? If they were still alive and needed medical attention, the circumstances would be very, very different.

Kharn

 

['Card]

Why risk a helo in foul weather to remove bodies?

Bingo.

Even all-weather capable machines are risky to operate in nasty conditions. A rescue generally recieves that kind of priority. Body recovery usually doesn't.

 

[KMKeller]

Shameless plug of the day award goes to... MICHAEL BANE!! Just pulling your leg Michael! Love the show. The combat shotgun segment was excellent.

 

[Tim Burke]

I just wish that mother and daughter had read, and heeded, Michael's book.

 

[James T Thomas]

What is best for us

The post from "Mike128" where comments from another site state "you don't need a gun on the trail sounds like an overbearing parental attitude that often reveals itself in the mindset of the liberal viewpoint.

Have you ever heard a controlling, oppressive, or "I know what is best for you, and you are going to have it no matter what" type of parent use that phrase -you don't need...fill in the blank.

Someone in authority, who has insinuated themselves into governmental office usually, for that purpose, is most often the one voicing such pats on the head for us bewildered children.

Our Constitution cuts the apron strings.

Tragic that the woman and her daughter may have trusted that they didn't need a means to protect themselves.

 

[gunsmith]

i like to tell those "you don't need" types

that they don't need newspapers & free speech and freedom of religion, they don't need Bibles or Torah's or Korans ...they don't need to vote...
They don't need freedom.

 

[50 Freak]

I don't advocate anyone to break laws, but this is why I carry in the NF. Better to fight a gun charge in court than to be found dead in the forest cause you ran accross some nasty 2 legged critters.

 

[orionengnr]

gunsmith...

well said.

 

[progunner1957]

The post from "Mike128" where comments from another site state "you don't need a gun on the trail sounds like an overbearing parental attitude that often reveals itself in the mindset of the liberal viewpoint.

Obviously the two dead women did need a gun.

Sheeple mentality proven wrong by reality yet again...

 

[Cosmoline]

It's always a good idea to pack heat. Look at the different outcome here:

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/crime/story/7963984p-7857152c.html

The man was shot by an out-of-state fisherman who had called for trooper assistance because, he said, the man who was killed had earlier been shooting at him and a fishing partner. The trooper was Michael Wery, based in Fairbanks.

 

[deanf]

Not to fault the Sheriff's prudence - but is this saying that there is no all-weather helo rescue capability in this area from the National Guard, Coast Guard or any other well equipped organization??

There aren't many, if any, "all weather" helicopters. Oh, some of them can take-off, cruise, and land in very limited visibility, but only at facilities that have supporting instrument equipment/staff/capabilities.

There are no instrument equipment/staff/capabilities 45 miles from the nearest major airport with 2500 foot forested canyons all around.

 

[MillCreek]

I have been at that very trailhead and very trail more times than I can count. I have often taken out of town folks along the Pinnacle Lake trail since it is relatively short (two miles) and yet opens up to a very classic Cascades alpine lake set into a rock bowl. Lake Twenty-two, Mt. Dickerman, Perry Creek, the Big Four ice caves....I go to the Mountain Loop Highway a lot, since it is only a 40 minute drive from my house in good traffic.

Oddly enough, in my 40 years of hiking/backpacking/snowshoeing/xc skiing, all in the Pacific NW, I have never even had my car broken into at a trailhead. This is just a tragedy for my two fellow hikers. Since I, or no one else yet knows the circumstances of their death, it is premature to speculate if carrying would have been of any benefit in this situation. As an example, were they confronted up close, marched off the trail and shot, or were they shot from a distance and the bodies then posed?

I routinely carry in the woods, but if someone shoots at me from 100 yards away with a rifle, the first thing I will know about it may well be feeling myself fall to the ground from the impact. My SP-101 will be of little benefit to me in that scenario. In an attempt to stack the odds in my favor, however, I carry nonetheless.

There is some talk on the Pacific NW hiking forums of having a memorial hike on that very trail. If so, I will be there. I just won't let anyone see that I will be carrying.

PS: Edited to add: the PI article linked at the top of this thread now has 65 comments posted as of 23:03 hours on 7/14/06. Interestingly enough, the majority of the postings are on both sides of the carry issue.

 

[LAK]

Kharn

Why risk a helo in foul weather to remove bodies? If they were still alive and needed medical attention, the circumstances would be very, very different

.
Well, these two evidently didn't die of exposure, a joint fall from a tree - or food posioning. Rather than have a bunch of people stumbling around with the bodies over a long distance of remote ground, and an even longer haul for a thorough forensics - a short and swift helo ride would make more sense for a thorough but speedy investigation. Mountain Rescue units - civil and military - fly in some very serious conditions routinely to recover bodies off of high mountains all over the world. And these are nearly always known victims of accidents.

deanf,

We do not have a clear picture of the actual conditions that grounded the SD unit. But the NG or Coast Guard have plenty of ships that will fly in the worst conditions.

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[Cosmoline]

It's my understanding from the SAR folks that the down and dirty helicopter flights are less and less likely to happen. A shocking number of additional deaths have been caused by chopper crashes in rescue or recover efforts. It's just not safe to go zipping around mountains in borderline VMC with no particular flight plan while looking around on the ground for something. In this case the dead were already dead, so there's no point in risking lives to try to hoist them out.

 

[LAK]

Hmm; ditto what I pointed out regarding the rest of the world - where the accident rate in air rescue recoveries is apparently not that high.

The RAF was flying (and perhaps still do) the antique Wessex helos throughout the Isles for many years; day, night, storm, rain, snow you name it. With a pretty good record. The only accident I actually recall in recent decades was not due to storm conditions on the mountains - rather a tail rotor failure that sent one down on a demo with a bunch of school children into a lake.

The location of the bodies, communicated by the people on the ground there would not be an "unknown". The flight plan would be an A to B to C. I'll wager it is a money problem - not a feasibility/risk problem.

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http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[ChestyP]

You don't put aircrews at risk

to recover bodies. Especially when they're within two miles of the trailhead. We've lost a couple of SAR and lifeflight helos in the NW in the past two years, one in which pilot and nurse lost their lives. There's a big difference between rescue and recovery.

SnoCounty S.O. (and assisting FBI -- killings occurred on federal property) are being very close-mouthed at this time, so as MillCreek notes, it's premature to speculate whether a firearm could have saved these ladies. Washington law (RCW 9.41.060(8) explicitly allows firearm carry while participating in ANY lawful outdoor recreational activity, even concealed without a license.

Given the proximity of many fine recreational areas to our urban jungles, anyone who doesn't take suitable precautions for ALL of the potential dangers associated with such activity is foolish. Yet we hear on the news weekly if not daily, the misadventures of this hiker, or that kayaker or rafter, or some camper somewhere -- lost, accidentally injured, assaulted, etc.

Too many people who live in artificial worlds (like Seattle) don't appreciate the fact then when you venture out into the mountains or desert, you're stepping back 10,000 years. Communing with nature isn't all sweetness and light -- there are pitfalls as well. Most THR readers understand that. Many urban nature lovers don't.

 

[ryoushi]

We go camping quite a bit. Sometimes my wife and daughter will
go up early in the week to secure a choice campground and I meet them
Friday evening after work.

On such a Friday night several years ago I was sitting at the picnic
table congratulating my wife on the way she'd set up camp. I was
surprised there was nobody in the adjacent site, "Oh there was
yesterday but I scared them off". "Oh God what happened this time?" I
asked.

"Well I was sprucing up the campsite a bit, you know how I am" She
likes everything tidy so she moves some rocks and pinecones around so
we don't trip over them in the dark. "Anyway, the guy in the next
campsite comes over and tells me that I'm disrupting nature or the
ecosystem or something like that." I said "Oh honey he was probably
just hitting on you."

"No this guy was intense, he called his teenage son over to show him
what I was doing and TOLD me to stop." Uh oh. "Wa, wa..what happened
then?" I stuttered.

"I told Shelly to bring me my gun, it's time for some target practice."

Oh jeez..what happened then?"
He said "You didn't bring a gun up here, this is a National Forest."
"You a ranger mister?" she asked. "Wa..wa..hap, hap?"

"Well I was asking him if he wasn't a ranger then just who the...well nevermind. Anyway then Shelly stepped out of the tent with the revolver in one hand and the rifle in the other and
says which one you want Mom, the big one or the little one? That took care of that."

That's the way the girls are in Texas.

 

[c_yeager]

Hmm; ditto what I pointed out regarding the rest of the world - where the accident rate in air rescue recoveries is apparently not that high.

The RAF was flying (and perhaps still do) the antique Wessex helos throughout the Isles for many years; day, night, storm, rain, snow you name it. With a pretty good record.

I believe that the isles have a very different definition of what constitutes "mountains" and the bad conditions therein than we do around here. I think England's highest "peak" is well under 4000 feet. Pinnacle Lake on this nice day hiking trail (where the bodies were found) is close to 7000 feet. The mountains around here exceed 10,000 feet. Stevens Pass, which is the primary *driving* route through this mountain range is higher than Englands highest peak (Scaffel Pike?)

When your guys start routinely pulling people out of the Alps, maybe we can start comparing accident rates.

 

[vito]

I few years ago I visited Mt. Rushmore and the Badlands in early November. The snows were starting and we were virtually the only car driving through the Badlands. At one point we stopped and left the car to view the amazing geography, when a pick up truck pulled into the same area and a very slimy, scary looking guy stepped out. What was scariest was the huge smile on his face the entire time; no hello or comment to myself, my wife or my (then) six year old son, just a big crazy sort of smile. Plus he was clearly more interested in looking at us than at the scenery. I had my Coronado Leather cross carry bag on my side, and I quietly put my camera back in the bag and got a firm grip on my Kimber Ultra Carry II. I never had to take it out and nothing really happened, but I will never forget how glad I felt to have taken a handgun with me on this little last minute vacation trip. I still don't know if I was breaking the law by carrying a loaded firearm in the Badlands, but I could hardly care less.

 

[TGT]

Quote by Vito: I still don't know if I was breaking the law by carrying a loaded firearm in the Badlands, but I could hardly care less.

Amen.

One shouldn't need their mama or a public broadcast to explain to me them that it can be dangerous to go to deserted places. It's just plum common sence that you don't ever put yourself in that kind of situation.