Mother and Daughter Slain in National Forest
- Thread starter Dain Bramage
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Great story Ryoushi
I loved your story Ryoushi. Your wife sounds really cool. My daughter just left for a five day hiking trip through a national park area and she's packing. She and I both feel better that she is. Against the law? Yeah, but so is rape and murder and she won't volunteer to be a victim for either.
I loved your story Ryoushi. Your wife sounds really cool. My daughter just left for a five day hiking trip through a national park area and she's packing. She and I both feel better that she is. Against the law? Yeah, but so is rape and murder and she won't volunteer to be a victim for either.
deanf
Member
Is there and IFR rated rotary-wing pilot in the house?
c_yeager
Scotland and Wales, indeed the whole of the Isles, are at a far higher latitude than many who have not been there realise. You have extremely volatile combinations of very cold air from the north and warm air coming up over mountains which are perched on what amounts to a big island.
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And your belief reflects the fact that you haven't spent much - if any - time in them. I have, as well as in the alps. The absolute extreme lower temperatures aside, the worst weather you will ever experience on any peak in the continental USA will have been duplicated on those little 3,000 to 4,000+ footers in Wales and Scotland. I have seen it firsthand often enough; ask any old hand helo pilot who has worked these areas and I am sure they'll tell you the same. The alps with higher peaks perhaps edge the lower temperature extremes over Scotland and Wales, but are likewise in all other respects.
Scotland and Wales, indeed the whole of the Isles, are at a far higher latitude than many who have not been there realise. You have extremely volatile combinations of very cold air from the north and warm air coming up over mountains which are perched on what amounts to a big island.
Well; they are not "my guys" actually. I simply cut my climbing teeth - summer and winter - in those "bonnie little hills" of Wales, and saw them frequently going about their business. And their counterparts in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy and France do routinely pull people out of the alps.
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ryoushi
Member
My dad told me along time ago never marry a woman who was born in California and I didn't. She's a great woman but one day I'm afraid she'll get me stomped, killed or arrested as she takes absolutely 0 crap from anybody. We always discreetly pack in the woods especially in the National Parks. Daughter has since grown and taken my Kimber Pro Carry .45 acp for her very own.
Thefabulousfink
Member
I have been to northern Scotland and seen how bad the weather can get (it's not pretty). I also live in the Pacific NW and spent a lot of time in the Cascades and Olympic ranges. We get bad weather from the coast as well and high winds and low visibility make flying hard enough, but you have also got large mountains and 1000 foot cliffs that make the wind do strange things. I know of at least one incident in recent years where we have lost a military heli attempting a mountain rescue.
I am not trying to say that the helo pilots of England, Scotland, and Wales are pansies, just that the risk of flying in bad weather in the Pac NW is not worth it when no lives were at stake.
I am not trying to say that the helo pilots of England, Scotland, and Wales are pansies, just that the risk of flying in bad weather in the Pac NW is not worth it when no lives were at stake.
Dave Workman
Member
The issue with the slain women in Washington state seems to be whether the presence of a defensive firearm may have prevented the killings. That issue is being debated, or has been debated, on the hiking forum, www.nwhikers.net and remarkably, most of the participants are either pro-gun or express an interest in wanting to know more about firearms and why gunnies carry them in the wilds.
For us, that's a "Well, DUH!" kind of question, but for non-gun types, in the context of the debate that is now on-going, it's a normal thing to ask.
There is considerable speculation that the victims stumbled upon a meth operation, or perhaps just someone(s) packing their meth out of the mountains, and the bad guy(s) didn't want to leave any witnesses.
The sheriff's department isn't releasing much information. And a lot of the information that has already been published has apparently been erroneous in many details.
For us, that's a "Well, DUH!" kind of question, but for non-gun types, in the context of the debate that is now on-going, it's a normal thing to ask.
There is considerable speculation that the victims stumbled upon a meth operation, or perhaps just someone(s) packing their meth out of the mountains, and the bad guy(s) didn't want to leave any witnesses.
The sheriff's department isn't releasing much information. And a lot of the information that has already been published has apparently been erroneous in many details.
Fleetwing1627
Member
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I am not a helo pilot, but I come from a long line of pilots, and IFR ops in a helicopter is deadly serious business. I don't know about RAF helis in Wessex, but operations over national forests in poor weather is dangerous, no matter how you approach it. Most helicopters aren't equipped for it, anyway.
c_yeager
Carnedd Llewellyn is a mere 3,491 feet at it's highest point, on which I have been in winds well in excess of 100 mph; with heavy clothing, pack, ice/snow climbing hardware you could dig in the front points of your crampons into the ice, lean forward and "hang" at something around 40 degrees with your arms spread. The updraft was so strong up our descent route it would lift and throw you back over the top; picture one of those updraft type wind tunnel machines used to simulate freefall during parachuting. We had to lay prone, crawl and pull ourselves down over a hardpacked cornice onto the snowface to descend.
Another afternoon in the same area, coming down off another snow and ice climb we encountered downdrafts that came in intermittant gusts across a lake. At something less than 2,000 feet. They were so strong that it was impossible to withstand them any more erect than a braced huddle on the ground. Getting caught offguard meant an uncontrolled (and uncomfortable) fast trip over many yards of some very rough ground.
Others have no doubt experienced worse, perhaps in Scotland - or in the Cascades. But the differences will be academic to flying. The "hills" in North Wales are littered with plane wrecks going back to WW2, and the abruptly changing weather kills people on a regular basis.
As it happens, there are peaks higher than 10,000 in the alps (and the himalayas), where climbers, hikers and tourists get into trouble, get stranded or killed on a regular basis. The airborne SAR operations face the same problems.
Fleetwing,
The Westland Wessex is a helicopter (these replaced Westland Whirlwinds used in the early 70s - I think they use Seakings now but I have not been over that side of the pond since '95). They operate out of RAF Valley on Anglesey Island off the North Wales northwest coast; the helicopter SAR training base, among other things, for the RAF.
http://www.rafvalley.org/history.htm
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That is not what I said. What I said was, that the worst conditions are pretty much the same.
Carnedd Llewellyn is a mere 3,491 feet at it's highest point, on which I have been in winds well in excess of 100 mph; with heavy clothing, pack, ice/snow climbing hardware you could dig in the front points of your crampons into the ice, lean forward and "hang" at something around 40 degrees with your arms spread. The updraft was so strong up our descent route it would lift and throw you back over the top; picture one of those updraft type wind tunnel machines used to simulate freefall during parachuting. We had to lay prone, crawl and pull ourselves down over a hardpacked cornice onto the snowface to descend.
Another afternoon in the same area, coming down off another snow and ice climb we encountered downdrafts that came in intermittant gusts across a lake. At something less than 2,000 feet. They were so strong that it was impossible to withstand them any more erect than a braced huddle on the ground. Getting caught offguard meant an uncontrolled (and uncomfortable) fast trip over many yards of some very rough ground.
Others have no doubt experienced worse, perhaps in Scotland - or in the Cascades. But the differences will be academic to flying. The "hills" in North Wales are littered with plane wrecks going back to WW2, and the abruptly changing weather kills people on a regular basis.
As it happens, there are peaks higher than 10,000 in the alps (and the himalayas), where climbers, hikers and tourists get into trouble, get stranded or killed on a regular basis. The airborne SAR operations face the same problems.
Fleetwing,
The Westland Wessex is a helicopter (these replaced Westland Whirlwinds used in the early 70s - I think they use Seakings now but I have not been over that side of the pond since '95). They operate out of RAF Valley on Anglesey Island off the North Wales northwest coast; the helicopter SAR training base, among other things, for the RAF.
http://www.rafvalley.org/history.htm
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