Mountain Lions and Guns

[Gaucho Gringo]

Out here in the PNW we have had 2 mountain lions stalking grade school playgrounds way inside an area that contains over 3 million people in a 40x50 mile area that were separated by the Columbia River in the last few years. And there have been a lot of other unconfirmed sightings.

 

[BLB68]

Agreed. Anything that will stop a human attacker is likely good enough to stop a cat. Not sure what wailing and gnashing you are refering to. This thread has seemed pretty reasonable.

Sorry. This thread has been pretty reasonable. I was speaking in general terms.

I don't know about this. It seems to me that the instinct to hunt and kill is strong in all predators, regardless of size, and regardless of if they are well fed. Big cats will bury kills also and come back to them later. That's why they recommend you never run if you see a cat. If you run, they HAVE to chase you. They can't help it, possibly even if they just ate. Attaching "pleasure" to what is instinct for them, seems a touch unfair. Millions of years of evolution tells predators to run, chase, and kill. Any animal will kill to protect young, to feed if a predator, or to protect territory. It seems to me humans are the only animal that kills for pleasure. Whatever though, I guess this is JMO based on observations.

I agree with all of this. In regards to house cats, I've personally seen one hunt all of the small game in its area to near extinction. I'm not going to go so far as to suggest that wild animals practice game management, per se, but that seems far in excess of what I'd expect of a larger cat.

I guess any predator should be taken seriously

Agreed. Even non-fatal attacks can cause debilitating, life-changing injury.

Ok now this I have to just flat out say is a silly statement. I agree that there is safety in numbers, especially in animal attack situations, and if you have that option, GREAT. However, my family is all either dead or several hundred miles away. I am not married and am single. My friends here are not big on hiking. So who exactlly am I supposed to go out to the woods with? Not to mention that my job necesitates that I work alone in the woods all the time, and at work I am not armed per the rules of my employer. Just because you have the luxury of companionship, don't assume everyone else in the world has the option. Because we don't.

It's not silly. In fact, you agree that there's safety in numbers. If you don't realistically have the option, then you simply do what you can to be safe. I did not say "never go into large predator country without a partner," just that it's a good idea. Heck, it's a good idea in general, predators or not. But it's not always an option, and I understand that.

Ok, I have wandered onto the topic of animal behavior, and off guns and SD.

Well, at least it's a related topic. You're far from the worst offender in that regard.

Mountain lions are a predator. All predators should be taken seriously. Actually, based on my experience, all animals should be taken seriously. Your chances of being attacked by a lion are very slim it seems, but a gun if used properly, and carried in an accessable manner is a viable defense.

If a lion is already on top of you, fight back with whatever is at hand, and good luck.

Stay safe all.

Agreed. Especially about the all animals being taken seriously. Reptile keepers have an expression (which they may well have gotten somewhere else, I dunno): If it has teeth, it can bite. So can quite a few things without teeth, for that matter.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Here is one that happened on Friday in a more rural area of Oregon, but in a city.
http://www.ktvz.com/news/cougar-sho...tree/-/413192/20962850/-/mtfkn6z/-/index.html

 

[DonnyBrook13]

.380 vs. .38 snubbie

So I took my two carry guns for a side-by-side test, practicing my mt. lion defense shot. 12 yards, shooting off-hand in a chair. The guns were a Bersa Thunder .380, and a Rossi (Taurus) .38 snubbie.

By God, Chuck Hawks was right and I didn't believe him. He said a .38 snubbie will usually outshoot a comparable compact semi-auto. Theoretically, I thought the .380 with a 3.5" barrel and longer sight radius would shoot better. The first shot was good, almost a bullseye... then they were all over the map. Literally, I didn't even bother to measure groups. This has happened before.

The revolver, with 2" barrel, was surprising -- 4 shots in the 10 ring (small pistol target) and most of the rest in the 9 ring.

I think the revolver has a stronger frame with a thicker barrel. The thin little barrel on the Bersa heats up fast and stays hot with the slide over it.

I'm packing the revolver from now on. What good is all the extra ammo capacity and faster reloading of a semi-auto if you can't hit the target? As most people realize, shot placement is far more important than caliber or firepower.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I'm afraid to say that the heating up of any pistol barrel after a few shots isn't going to cause bullets to scatter on the target at that range. I think you probably just rushed things and forgot to "re-align" the Bersa's sights.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Mmmm mt loin...

A mountain's loins are very hard to kill -- they're made of solid rock, you know.

 

[silicosys4]

i wouldn't bother to carry any different gear or way than I always carry for men.

Amen. Cougar are much more predictable and less dangerous than my normal reason for cc... People.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Amen. Cougar are much more predictable and less dangerous than my normal reason for cc... People.

You bring up a good point. A walk through an inner city neighborhood is much more dangerous than hike in mountain lion or bear country.

 

[Gun Master]

I remember an article in Outdoor Life or Field & Stream, etc., about 30 or more years ago, that I hope somebody can verify. A guy supposedly hunted and shot a mountain lion (and took photos), with a Colt Woodsman .22. As I remembered it, he used dogs to tree it, then he climbed the tree to get close enough to hit the correct spot (think back of the head). My first thought was, " I believe I'd use something larger than a .22, and preferably a rifle ". Next I thought, "Why'd he climb the tree? I am pretty sure the cat is a better climber". The photos and written account appeared real, at the time. I am not making this up ! Somebody please verify this!

 

[silicosys4]

You bring up a good point. A walk through an inner city neighborhood is much more dangerous than hike in mountain lion or bear country.

The scenery sure is better, and nobody minds if you get bored, pull out your hogleg, and do a little practicin'

I have a few friends from the big ol' city that visit once in a while, and they are scared to death of the woods...They laugh when I tell them I'm more nervous in their neighborhood than they are in mine, lol

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I have a few friends from the big ol' city that visit once in a while, and they are scared to death of the woods...They laugh when I tell them I'm more nervous in their neighborhood than they are in mine, lol

I have a daughter who lives in West New York, New Jersey, and she tells them stories about Dad. When I meet them, they're all apprehensive ("He carries a gun!!")

And they're dumbfounded when I tell them the homicide rate in my county (Stone County, Arkansas) is only about 1-2 per 100,000 -- about that of Sweden or the United Kingdom -- and nobody ever locks their doors.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

You bring up a good point. A walk through an inner city neighborhood is much more dangerous than hike in mountain lion or bear country.

Absolutely. I'd rather be sent to wander the woods at night than the streets of south Chicago at night, any day of the week. Gun or no.

I have a few friends from the big ol' city that visit once in a while, and they are scared to death of the woods...They laugh when I tell them I'm more nervous in their neighborhood than they are in mine

Same here man

When I meet them, they're all apprehensive ("He carries a gun!!")

That happens to me also. I came from a city originally and my friends and family who still live in cities don't seem to understand that a gun is just another piece of every day equipment to those of us that live out in the boonies.

In reality, I think they have more reason than I to carry.

 

[Leanwolf]

FLYING TIGER85 - "I bought a Winchester 30-30 off a guy I worked with that only had 50 rounds through it. He claims that outside of Montrose Colorado he was stalked by a mountain loin coming slowly in front of him and he had shot 5 rounds in it before it stopped dead. That's a pretty powerful round. "

"Powerful round" is right. Not saying you're not telling the truth about the story the man told you, but I am seriously doubtful that he hit a mountain lion several times with a .30-30 and it still kept coming until finally dead.

One round from a .30-30 WCF in any vitals of a Mountain Lion will put it down right there and then.

When I lived in Calif., I had a friend years ago who was a professional lion and bear guide. This was before Mountain lion hunting had been banned.

He killed many a lion with his Ruger Single Six .22 Magnum. That's all he carried. He carried an old beat up Winchester Trapper .30-30 WCH when he was bear hunting and that .30-30 bullet would flat take down a large Black bear.

I am guessing the man who told you the story kinda embellished it a bit. Hope you got a good deal on the Winchester.

L.W.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

He might have fired five rounds at it, but I bet he only got one hit. Sort of like how the M1 carbine got a reputation for poor stopping power in Korea when the real problem was poor marksmanship.

 

[Dallas Jack]

Link to cougar attacks fron before <1970-2004

Listed by:
Name, age, gender
Date
Location, comments

Before 1970

Arthur Dangle, 7, male
June 19, 1890
Killed by two cougars while playing near his home in Quartz Valley, Siskiyou County, California

Child, 2, male
January 31, 1909
Killed by mountain lion near Balboa, California. The boy was attacked while in a tent.[4]

Elena Salzar, 5, female
June 1953
Attacked, dragged off, and eaten in Tampico, Mexico[5]

1970-1999

Lawrence Wells, 12, male
January 1971
Attacked and killed in Lytton, British Columbia by male cougar while playing with his sisters

Kenneth Clark Nolan, 8, male
January 20, 1974
Killed by a 3 year old female cougar in Arroyo Seco, New Mexico

Thomas Harris, 26, male
July 1976
Killed by a two year old male cougar near Gold River on British Columbia's Vancouver Island. He was dragged over 800 yards in the snow.

Matilda Mae Samuel, 7, female
July 1976
Killed by cougar near Gold River, British Columbia Killed while walking on a road.

Jeremy Williams, 7, male
May 1992
Attacked and killed in Kyuquot, British Columbia by a young female cougar while playing in the school yard.

Barbara Barsalou Schoener, 40, female
April 23, 1994
Long distance runner and Placerville resident was attacked and killed while jogging on the American River Canyon Trail in California's Auburn State Recreation Area

Iris M. Kenna, 56, female
December 10, 1994
Killed while hiking alone near Cuyamaca Peak in California's Cuyamaca Rancho State Park

Cindy Parolin, 36, female
August 19, 1996
Mother killed while defending her 6 year old son on a horse back riding trip in British Columbia

Mark Miedema, 10, male
July 17, 1997
Killed by an adult female cougar in Colorado's Rocky Mountain National Park while hiking when he got ahead of his family[12]


2000s

Frances Frost, 30, female
January 2, 2001
This Canmore, Alberta resident was killed by a cougar while skiing on Cascade Fire Road just north of Banff National Park in Alberta

Mark Jeffrey Reynolds, 35, male
January 8, 2004
Attacked and killed while mountain biking at Whiting Ranch Wilderness Park in southern Orange County, California[9][14]

Robert Nawojski, 55, male
June 24, 2008
Searchers found his body on this date near his mobile home in Pinos Altos, New Mexico. Investigators concluded that he had been attacked and killed by a cougar several days earlier.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America


These were the ones reported. Could there be more that were misreported as lost hikers,never found?

It has become an almost common acurrance to read about a jogger or cyclist being attacked on the wilderness trails in California. Luckly it is also common for someone to come to their aid.

Sorry for the long post, I question the wisdom of protecting the cougars at the exspence of the people.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I question the wisdom of protecting the cougars at the expence of the people.

Yeah, I don't particularly think it is a good idea to ban the hunting of any animal. You can always restrict the number of tags given, and there at least needs to be an option to thin them out. When the population gets reduced, they will be harder to find, and the number of bagged predators will go down. What is the magic number? It's obviously different where ever you are. IMO it should be about conservation. Conservation denotes use. With proper conservation, preservation is a natural outcome, and laws banning this or totally preserving that, are unecessary with most wildlife species.

Populations of certain species can certainly become over abundanat, but I think with good common sense, and good situational awareness, there is room for lots of predators, and lots of people in the "wilderness", woods, what have you. And certainly at times, the cat, bear, moose, or lunatic is going to get the better of us no matter what we do.

Funny, I often hear animal rights activists and environmentalists (I come into contact with these circles of people due to my job.) comment that the hunting of predators is TOTALLY wrong, and that "We as humans should know better, and are the ones to blame when an animal attack happens." This is horse hockey. We are animals too, we evolved in this world as well as any "animal", and we have just as much right to be out in the woods or natural environment as any critter, big or small.

I would argue that the creation, development, and ability to carry a gun is part of our evolution as well. It is no different than a snake evolving to produce venom, or a hawk developing talons, or an elephant evolving tusks. All are examples of evolutionary adaptations meant to defend oneself, one's family, procure food, and possibly mates if we are talking deer antlers or something of that nature. We evolved a brain, which in turn allowed us to evolve guns. When you think about it we have evolved a defense that depending on caliber and cartridge, allows us to kill or defend against any other macro-organism on the planet. That is impressive to say the least.

But big cats evolved speed, strengh, and most importantly, stealth. They are essentially the ninjas of the animal kingdom. When you really break it down, the relationship of predator to prey (and we CAN be either), and species competing for resources, creates a natural arms race. Honestly, I think the cats are better armed than we are.

I guess we are fortunate that mountain lions very rarely see us as a food source or a threat. I hope to god I never have to try and shoot one in defense.

 

[X-Rap]

The list in #140 shows that the majority of fatal attacks are made against either juveniles or women. The juveniles probably weren't armed but if they were accompanied by adults, they should have been. When my kids were small and they would trek about in what we knew was possible lion habitat (we had calves killed and neighbors horse attacked) they were accompanied by an over protective lab.
I have my doubts/concerns about shooting one off my own back but I believe that a contact shot on a cat while on someone else is more feasible.
What has been said about cats not being difficult to kill goes along with all I have ever heard and so far as I know if one had to shoot one in defense I have never heard of prosecution following an investigation by the DOW in my part of CO.
Hardly a year goes by in which there isn't fresh tracks or a sighting by myself or my hunting partners so they are always present just not often seen.
I believe in making a gun part of your back country kit just like the other tools you may carry along.
Colorado and other western states big game animals are under increasing pressure from predators IMO and they are losing much of their fear of man and in the case of bears and to a lesser degree cats, there is not an animal in the state that has been hunted hard by man and along with encroachment contact is bound to increase.

 

[SKILCZ]

Saw one in the Grand Canyon area a while back about 50 yards in front of us. Guy I know saw one two years ago in the northern midwest. National Park Service had warnings up a few years ago in one of the national parks we visited in the northern midwest, too. DNR posted verified pics of cougars in northern MI from trail cameras.





I agree with others in that I'd rather have a gun and not need it than need it and not have it. Same logic with seat belts, fire extinguishers, life insurance, etc. Other than the seat belts, odds are we won't need most of these things, but I prefer having them just in case.

 

[481]

Saw one in the Grand Canyon area a while back about 50 yards in front of us. Guy I know saw one two years ago in the northern midwest. National Park Service had warnings up a few years ago in one of the national parks we visited in the northern midwest, too. DNR posted verified pics of cougars in northern MI from trail cameras.





I agree with others in that I'd rather have a gun and not need it than need it and not have it. Same logic with seat belts, fire extinguishers, life insurance, etc. Other than the seat belts, odds are we won't need most of these things, but I prefer having them just in case.

I get to the U.P. occasionally. Hopefully, I'll have the good fortune to see one of these beautiful creatures the next I get up thattaway.

 

[95XL883]

About 10 years ago, I had a chance encounter with three of them, a mom and two large kittens. It was in Olathe, KS (a suburb of Kansas City). I was walking quietly into the wind to an inactive quarry site of my employer. I was about 10 yards from a row of broken rock when they sprang from behind the row and bounded for the woods. (To be clear, they didn't come at me. I wouldn't be here if they had.) The kittens went straight into the woods. Momma stopped short of the woods and stared at me. I was so shocked I froze for a second. I picked up a rock figuring I would at least have something if it charged. After a couple of seconds, it turned and disappeared into the woods. I was never in any real danger but it scared me at the time. I tried to tell myself they were bobcats but bobcats don't get that big and they don't have long tails. Absolutely beautiful creatures. Amazing grace and speed. I wish I could see another one some day but I bet I never will.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I get to the U.P. occasionally. Hopefully, I'll have the good fortune to see one of these beautiful creatures the next I get up thattaway.

Whereabouts? My relatives, all part of the Soo Tribe, stretch from St. Ignace to Gladstone. My old stomping grounds was the Hiawatha National Forest. A 10mm has been my woods gun for the last two and a half decades. Now, I'm in the Huron National Forest, so nothing's changed.

 

[CookeMonster]

I live in a sprawling city of about 90,000 in the northern tip of California's central valley. We have hundreds of miles of rural, paved trail for walking/running/biking and cats are spotted on those trails a couple times a year. I don't recall an attack reported on humans here, but dogs are frequently found field stripped. I carry all day, every day, and my highest probability of meeting a dangerous predator is a carjacking.

My cat story was about 11 years ago. My ex-father-in-law and I were trying to escape the crazy ex-wife for a couple hours. We went to a turn of the century, ghost town cemetery about 15 minutes out of town to kick back in the car, in the dark, and put down a couple beers to unwind. After about an hour and a half, we fired up the car and tuned on the headlights. To our shock and amazement, about 10 feet in front of the car (and completely unnoticed by us prior to the headlights) was a cat crossing in front of us. The cat was about 8 feet from tip to tip (no idea what these things weigh, but I would estimate it to be a healthy 160-170 lbs) as it's head was well past the drivers side and the tail was still to the right of the passenger quarter panel. Beautiful sight, a privilege and a gift from nature. There are lots of big cats in this part of the country, but this was the only one I had ever seen, and I have spent quite a bit of time in the greenbelt areas as a kid/teen and outlying hills playing on dirt bikes, ATVs and hunting. Most of the cats spotted on the city trails are tranqued and relocated. These cats frequent the smaller towns outside the city, but rarely cause any serious problems even though they seem to be more desensitized to human proximity than most places in the country. The biggest complaint about them is from livestock owners and deer hunters that have to compete (still plenty of deer for the hunters). Small inconveniences do not lead me to believe that cats and humans can not coexist. That said, if I caught a cat trailing me, I wouldn't let it get past the 2nd time we made eye contact.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

to kick back in the car, in the dark, and put down a couple beers