Mounting a safe over carpet?

[Dan Forrester]

So it looks like I’m buying a Diebold TL 15 rated safe next Monday. It looks like a very nice safe. Manual lock, about 22” D x 15” W x 30” T for the inside dimensions and a weight of about 875 pounds. Since I live on the first floor of an apartment the weight is not a problem.

However since I am renting I have a dilemma for mounting it. I have a small coat closet near my front door I would like to keep it in. The coat closet has its own small piece of carpet with no pad underneath. Should I just place the safe right on the carpet and then drill right through the carpet and into the concrete to mount it? I’m afraid that the carpet will leave a little space where the carpet could be compressed and allow a spud bar or crowbar underneath it and slowly work it out of the concrete.

Should I just rip this carpet out all together. The inside of the closed is right at about 2’ x 3’. How would be the best way to get this carpet out and how much would it cost to have a carpenter to put it back in when I move?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Winston_Smith]

How long are you planning to stay in your apt? If it was me, I would actually set the safe on two 4x4s, fill it up with heavy stuff and call it good. It is more important to bolt down lighter safes.

 

[theotherwaldo]

-You might be better off drilling through the back and lag bolting to the studs than mounting into the floor. Just as hard for bad guys to remove, but far easier to patch op when you move.

 

[kingpin008]

How long are you planning to stay in your apt? If it was me, I would actually set the safe on two 4x4s, fill it up with heavy stuff and call it good. It is more important to bolt down lighter safes.

IMHO, that's a terrible idea. While the safe in question may weigh upwards of 800 lbs, if it fits inside a 2x3 ft. closet, it's not that big and could very easily be manhandled by a couple determined thugs with prybars and a strong dollie.

Setting it up on a platform of 4x4's just makes it easier for anyone who would want to steal the thing to get enough leverage to remove it from the closet - especially if it's not bolted down.

If it were me, I'd go ahead and bolt it down to the floor right through the carpet. Even if the weight of the safe does eventually compress the carpet it sits on, I can't imagine it'd really make it that much easier to jam a prybar underneath it.

As I said, this is simply my opinion. IANAL, YMMV, etc, etc.

 

[oneounceload]

You might be better off drilling through the back and lag bolting to the studs than mounting into the floor. Just as hard for bad guys to remove, but far easier to patch op when you move.

For an apartment, agree - go into a corner - put lag bolts through two sides into two walls' studs - it will be hard to remove.....

 

[kanewpadle]

I install safes every once in a while and have done it many times.

Keep this in mind please.

BEFORE you drill holes in the carpet remember that the carpet WILL twist like a rope while attached to your drill bit and you will end up ruining the carpet. Possibly for several feet in either direction. I set the safe where I want it and then mark the holes with a black sharpie. Then I cut out a square hole in the carpet and then drill a hole in the floor whether wood or concrete.

So since you live in an apartment, you may be limited on how you can install it.

I would take out the carpet NICELY so you can put it back later when you move out. Then mount the safe to the concrete. You will need a hammerdrill and it will be loud. When you move, cut the concrete anchors down with a dremel tool or grinder. Then replace the carpet.

Diebold is an excellent safe. Make sure it dials properly. If it doesn't have it looked at. You don't want to pay someone to drill it open.

 

[Guns and more]

875# empty? Probably 1100# by the time you put ammo and guns in it.
Nobody's is going to carry it away.
Don't show it to anyone.

 

[2nd 41]

Nobody's is going to carry it away.

2 people brought in...2 will take it out.
My tall safe was lag bolted to the floor only. It was pulled loose with not too much effort. Fortunately my (X) wife & at the time could not get the door off.
Definitely do it right. Use as many bolts in floor and wall as possible.

 

[M57]

When drilling through carpet, put the drill on reverse to drill through the carpet to prevent it from coiling up as posted a few posts back, then once through the carpet put on forward and drill concrete. Bolt it down.

 

[kanewpadle]

With an appliance dolly, I can move a 1000 pound safe by myself on level ground. And I'm pushing 50. Inclines or stairs are a different ball game.

 

[kingpin008]

875# empty? Probably 1100# by the time you put ammo and guns in it. Nobody's is going to carry it away.

As 2nd 41 said, people brought it in, people can bring it out. Assuming that it'll be too heavy for thieves to bother with is a fool's errand.

Don't show it to anyone.

Seeing as how homeowners rarely "show" burglars anything, this seems like a silly suggestion. If it's in the house and isn't ridiculously well concealed, a thief will find it.

 

[Dan Forrester]

I am definitely going to mount it into the concrete. I already have both a rotary hammer as well as a hammer drill. I would be using ¼” tapcons with stainless fender washers into as many holes as the safe will allow. I have more faith in a tapcon in 2 inches of concrete than I do a lag screw in a wooden beam.

I’m not too worried about covering up a small hole in the carpet since it is only ¼” and the carpet would go right over it. Would it be possible to fluff the carpet back up after an 875 pound safe with a 1.5’ by 2’ foot print has been sitting on it for a couple years or will the carpet fibers be crushed?

I really won’t have much more than a couple pounds in the thing. A couple silencers, an SBR AR15 and chopped down shotgun and a pistol or two. More valuable or difficult to replace items than heavy ones. And I will never believe something is too heavy for 4 guys to simply carry off one night so it will be bolted down as described above.

I think my main concern is a couple guys with spud bars wedging them in the compressed carpet between the concrete and safe and working it out.

The lock should be good but I plan on having it checked out by a professional once I get it in place. I believe it is a Sargent & Greenleaf lock and should have been pretty well maintained since it came out of a Wachovia bank. Supposedly it was a safe which was inside of the main vault.

I thought these were pretty cool videos of a US testing for TL 15 and TL 30 safes being tested by Underwriters Labratory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF4niB12EXg&feature=related

Thanks to each one of you for your responses. I’m don’t want any weak points in this system. Especially after my friends safe was stolen back a couple months ago.

Dan

 

[kingpin008]

Dark - I really, really think you'd be OK just drilling through the carpet. While the carpet will undoubtedly compress under the weight, it's not going to compress so much that it'll give any potential robbers much advantage, especially in such a small space. In that small of a space, you'd need a pretty big prybar to get enough leverage to move that sucker, compressed carpet or not.

 

[CB900F]

Dark;

I do this professionally. Use a gasket punch on the carpet. It will leave a circular hole in the carpet of whatever diameter you select. The set is pretty inexpensive, far less than replacing carpet. With that circle of carpet removed, drill away & don't worry about unraveling the carpet. Bolt it down tight & don't worry about somebody getting a prybar under the safe unless you're dealing with ridiculesly thick leftover 1974 shag. In which case, just move.

900F

 

[Acera]

Ok, carpet question is very easy and cheap. These solutions will get your deposit back.

Option 1

a) Determine exact location of screws. Drop of "white out" works good as a marker.

b) Separate the pile to determine how the carpet is laid down, you will find a grid pattern on the bottom of the carpet, it's the holes that the fibers are stuck through to make it stand up.

c) Using a sharp razor blade, cut a straight line 2 inches or so on either side of the point where you want to put the hole. (4 inch straight cut, with you spot in the middle.) Do not cut cross grain, try to cut the material in the middle.

d) Use something to spread the carpet apart at these spots. Clothes pin taken apart works good, don't worry about it bunching up. Just something you can put in there to keep the hole open while you drill and install the bolts.

e) When you move, take out safe, and repair hole with a piece of duct tape on the floor facing up, press into place and if you took your time, no one will ever know, until they replace the carpet, and those guys don't care.

Option 2

a) Cut carpet at the saddle (junction between the closet and the hall) You can get on your knees and pull the piles back until you see the original seam there. You want to cut the tape that holds the two pieces together.

b) Once cut, grasp piece of carpet in closet and pull it up. Store in closet. (This piece can be used as a patch if you ever get a stain on the more visible carpeted areas.)

c) When you move the safe out, go find a carpet crew working on other apartments, new homes in the area, etc. and offer cash for one of them to do a patch after work. (It helps if you mention that you have cold beer.)

No drama, and you don't have to ruin the carpet and risk a deposit loss.

 

[Erik M]

I have a my safe mounted over a carpet floor. Its lag bolted to the wall studs in 4 places. You could use one of those .22 powered nail drivers to mount it to the concrete.

 

[a1abdj]

Lots of advice here, but I'll add my two cents.

If you're going to bolt the safe, I would use something larger than 1/4" tapcons. I would suggest some sort of wedge anchors no smaller than 3/8".

As far as it being easy to carry out, everybody is forgetting one thing. A 6' tall safe that weighs 800 pounds allows you to get a lot of leverage. A 30" tall safe that weighs 800 pounds will not have that leverage.

I have been installing a lot of these types of safes lately, and even using the proper equipment, they can really be a pain. This is especially true if stairs are involved.

 

[musick]

Don't show it to anyone.

I wont give advice on how to mount or secure your safe (there seems to be a few w/ more knowledge than I that have already posted) but Im going to have to agree that this is a very important piece in the theft prevention puzzle.

Too many robberies are partially (sometimes largely) to blame on the fact most people like to brag...its human nature I guess. "Loose lips sink ships". 90% of the time, thieves are NOT going to have the equipment to remove a 800#+ safe unless they know ahead of time that such tools will be needed. Most thieves are looking for items then can take with relative ease, without raising suspicion form neighbors.... items than can take quickly are targets. Stereos, cameras, etc. are going to be hit by the casual thief well before a half-ton safe is. Perhaps you could consider these items to be bait, so they get a few items and leave quickly, missing out on the larger stash. Of course if you do get hit once, they might then know you have a safe. Things become more difficult then.

Of course you should consider where you live as well and what friends/family members already know, among other things. These questions you should address yourself.

 

[musick]

Should I just rip this carpet out all together. The inside of the closed is right at about 2’ x 3’. How would be the best way to get this carpet out and how much would it cost to have a carpenter to put it back in when I move?

Thanks,

Dan

If you decide to go down rather than to the rear, consider (along with other ideas here) marking your mounting points and cutting an 'X' through the carpet w/ a sharp knife/razor. You could then peel back and tape down the points so your drill will not bind in the carpet. Carpet damage would be minimized that way and you could somewhat repair the carpet to get back your security deposit.

Just a thought..

 

[Guns and more]

Seeing as how homeowners rarely "show" burglars anything, this seems like a silly suggestion. If it's in the house and isn't ridiculously well concealed, a thief will find it.

Then with that attitude, don't bother getting a safe, because it will just get stolen.
Unless you're getting burgled often (then I say move) I'm guessing most thieves target a place because they have some information that there are valuables inside. Why choose you instead of your neighbors? Loose lips sink ships. Especially burglars who show up with a hand dolly, pry bars, and multiple friends, also with a truck to haul a 1100# safe off without being seen. Doesn't sound like a crack head to me.
Have a party at your place? Kids bring friends from school over? Salesmen get past the door? This doesn't mean the maintenance man or the pest control guy aren't making notes for their cousin "Vinnie the squid". No plan is perfect.
At some point you have to say, "Enough paranoia."
Or weld it to steel plates poured into concrete in the walls. No, wait, the burglars might have a plasma cutter. Sheesh!

 

[kanook]

how old was the carpet when you moved in? the average rental has the cheapest carpet installed that will only last about 7 years of normal wear. just a little hint to easy install, lean the safe over enough to slide a piece of cardboard under it. open the safe and mark the holes, remove the cardboard from under the safe and place it where you want the safe. you now have a template of the bottom of the safe and know where to cut the carpet without moving the safe in and out.

 

[atomd]

Those videos all over the internet of people breaking into safes really crack me up. All of that stuff can pretty much only be done once they take your safe out of your house. At that point, your stuff is already gone anyways. I don't think anyone is going to be standing in your little closet with a 5' pry bar, 2 pickaxes, and a variety of extremely loud power tools, making a giant racket for 15 minutes straight (not to mention the time it would take to haul all that junk plus the contents of the safe. A thief might have those tools but he isn't going to be carrying all of them around with him hoping he runs into a safe to break into. Another thing is that the thief needs a pretty large vehicle to put a safe into. Eventually someone will get into ANY safe if they really want to. It's just a matter of time.

I guess my point is that someone who goes to that trouble knows that there's a safe there. They probably know what's in it..and they have a plan to take it. That is why you don't go showing people your stuff.

Oh, and I would anchor the safe. It won't cost you hardly anything and it's one extra hurdle for a burglar.

 

[heeler]

I am not trying to get this subject off track but as one who has had his home broken into three times in the thirty years I have lived in my home I will say this.
First I have no idea how long a thief or thieves stay inside a home when they hit it but each and every time my house was hit they/he used a small prying tool to get through the front or back door and generally made sure each and every closet was gone through and every drawer in my bedroom had it's contents emptied on the floor.
And they always had time to get the stereo epuipment,albums,tapes,dvd's,etc as well as my T.V and before I bought my safe...ALL my guns.
Although since I bought this Amsec gun safe several years ago I have not had my home broken into.
It would be nice to conceal your safe as much as possible but something as large as a gun safe is hard to hide unless you build some sort of stealthy place for it.
So all I can say is bolt it down and hope it holds the line when they come upon it.
In the original posters case,the very fact that he has a TL-15 rated safe I think as long as he bolts it securely down he will be fine because these guys ARE NOT going to get into that thing without some serious tools.
And it's not likely they are hauling those tools with them.
As far as why they target one home or another all I can say is in my case it may be because I keep my home looking nice from the street level and I am a single guy and they probably think(rightfully so) that old white dude probably has some pretty nice things in there.
And so it goes on each and every day in America.
So all you can do is secure your home the best you can and hope for the best because not all of us can afford to live in some gated community where only your on kind can get in.

 

[Guns and more]

atomd and heeler---finally, some common sense. Thank you.

These safe threads turn into how a professional safe cracker and his gang can target your safe. All true, but why would a professional target you?
Don't brag about the million dollars in gold bars you have, and take the best measures you can. Any safe is better than no safe. The common burglar wants stuff he can carry out without getting caught. And stuff he can sell. Time is his enemy.
Bolt it down if you can. You may be able to remove a square of carpet from the closet and replace it when you leave. A bit of carpet tape does an amazing job.

 

[a1abdj]

All true, but why would a professional target you?
Don't brag about the million dollars in gold bars you have,

Because the professional will know that you have a million dollars in gold bars regardless of how secretive you are.

It is obvious that most people with gun safes are keeping guns locked up. However, you would be surprised. I get at least 2 calls a week from somebody looking to buy a gun safe who's wanting to use it for something other than guns with a value of $100,000 to $500,000.